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Old
06-29-2004, 02:43 AM
  #26
KlingonHockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Cut Taxes then cut out Liberal waste programs, simple equation for a balanced budget.
You're delusional if you think the Liberals waste so much money that the Conservatives could implement a tax cut and still keep a balanced bugdet simply by being completely innocent of any bureaucratic BS that, as far as I can tell, every political party across the globe has been subject to.

Even with their waste programs they've run budget surplusses since '97. That's with "waste". What did Mulroney do with a $35 billion deficit? His more than doubling of our national debt yielded... a more than doubling of our national debt plus interest payments. It's almost like he bought 140 billion 6/49 tickets at their current price and picked 1,2,3,4,5,6 for all of them.

Not to completely excuse Liberal waste by saying it happens everywhere. In any case, I'm happy with the results and hope the NDP keep the Liberals accountable.

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Old
06-29-2004, 06:52 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Yeah cutting taxes would be awful wouldn't it? God forbid I get to keep a little more of the money I earn as opposed to sending up to Ottawa so some Liberal elite can pay his consulting buddy a big fat contract for providing some dreamed up scheme.

Cut Taxes then cut out Liberal waste programs, simple equation for a balanced budget.

Spend more on the military so Canada can stop being the biggest freeloader nation in NATO. We stand by and laud our social programs while the Americans have to spend Trillions of $ on military expenditures so that the Russians, Islamo Fascists (whomever pick the oppresive regime of the day) don't run roughshod over the planet, and then as a nation we have the gaul to call Americans '********'. Nice country, someday soon this country is going to bust at the seems.

HotToddy, I don't remember the last time I ever agreed with you, but this time, I'm behind what your are saying 100%.

Let's face it, as a nation we are over-taxed in relation to the services we get. In the last little while, I've our health car system at work. THe doctors and nurses are awesome. Problem is, they are over-worked and there isn't enough of them.

We taxed on our income, then with what is left, we are taxed on the goods we buy, we taxed on the property we own, and them we pay GST on gas tax...When does is end?

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Old
06-29-2004, 08:48 AM
  #28
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Last time we had a conservative party in charge of this country, they ran it through the ground.

Tax cuts and more spending aren't a good thing when they incure defecit's, which in turn lead to debt. Harper scares the living crap out of me. He doesn't think half the time before he speaks (Paul Martin supports child pornography?), and the conservatives have this brutal habit of blowing up the areas they govern right from within, and to the point that it requires a drastic bit of action to set things right again.

The Conservatives ruined the country in the 80's, and they've also ripped apart the province of Ontario the past 8 years. So much so, that there was a $5 billion defecit that no one new about until the new budget was released. They even have the gall to chastize Daulton McGuinty for going back on some of his promises in order to fix the mess, but when questioned about the mis-information they provided, they shut-up very quickly.

The Conservatives have run this country, and the Province of Ontario into the ground so much in recent years, that it's not suprising at all that Ontario votes Liberal every chance they get. It's what makes sense here, based on everything we have seen and dealt with.

I don't want our country to get back to the point where the defecit is larger than the GNP of some small countries. I don't want the federal government to simply wipe their hands clean of health care, in terms of their roles and responsibilities of it. Tax cuts are nice, but not at the expense of a future, which is exactly what the Conservatives have come to represent. Go into power, lower all the taxes, run everything into the ground, then let someone else clean up the mess, and as they try to clean it up (which no doubt means raising taxes), the Conservatives stand there and yell from their benches.

Sorry, I don't think so. This country is completely insane sometimes. Instead of riding out the wave, we alternate between under-taxation for happiness of the public, to over-taxation to keep the country economically sound. Then every few years we get tired of one and go with the other, alternating back and forth to the point where we are stuck in a perpetual state of Limbo.

Get the frigging country on track, pump the money into the key areas that need it (Education, Healthcare, debt), then once you have a healthy, functioning country, reduce taxes. Taxes shouldn't be reduced until there is no debt. I agree there has been a lot of wasted money, which is why you get the people responsible for that out (not the whole party, the people directly involved). The country is going to be in the toilet with what Harper had planned... and anyone with any sense of economics could understand that. Unfortunately, you say tax-cuts, and everyone drools, with little to no though about what that means.

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Old
06-29-2004, 09:04 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone

The Conservatives ruined the country in the 80's,
Pierre Elliot Trudeau provided us with issues you are attributing to the Conservatives. http://www.tpg1.com/protest/federal/..._articles.html

And dawgbone, you are from Ontario, it appears, and there is no amount of justification that anyone from Ontario is going to provide an Albertan as to understand why we have a minority goverment of the party most likely to steal our money and then shrug their shoulders as to where it went.

If this keeps up, I as much as I love this country, I may become a separatist.

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Old
06-29-2004, 09:28 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
Pierre Elliot Trudeau provided us with issues you are attributing to the Conservatives. http://www.tpg1.com/protest/federal/..._articles.html

And dawgbone, you are from Ontario, it appears, and there is no amount of justification that anyone from Ontario is going to provide an Albertan as to understand why we have a minority goverment of the party most likely to steal our money and then shrug their shoulders as to where it went.

If this keeps up, I as much as I love this country, I may become a separatist.
Ah yes... Eric Margolis and Peter Worthington... the Sun is a nice franchise of newspapers for sports coverage, and the sunshine girl. If you start turning to them for political views and truths, you are in a tonne of trouble. Margolis is the same clown who wrote an article detailing every broken campaign promise that the provincial liberals made (mostly financial ones), yet failed to even bring up the minor point that Ernie Eaves and his PC cronies blatantly lied to everyone about the current financial state of the province, which was the basis for a lot of the promises all the parties had made.

I tend to ignore anything political from the Sun, they are more interested in being a tabloid than a newspaper, hence the reason they have strictly columnists, and not reporters. So while those are interesting articles, as soon as I saw the names I tuned out... nothing to do with me following the red flag of freedom, more to do with knowing what Worthington and Margolis really are, and how they conduct themselves in their articles.

Edit: I re-read it, and again... sorry, Margolis just doesn't do it for me. Comments like the U.S. will have their national debt paid off by 2012, when they have done nothing but run defecits for the past 20 years is interesting... couple that with their current national debt which is hovering around $4 trillion, and it really makes you think about what he writes. I have no doubt that there is some truth in there, but every lie does have some truth...

Actually, I wasn' trying to justify anything... I just noticed alot of complaints about people from Ontario putting the Liberals in control again, and I figured I'd come out with the reason why... We haven't had a very good P.C. experience here in Ontario.


Last edited by dawgbone: 06-29-2004 at 09:47 AM.
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Old
06-29-2004, 09:37 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mowthecat
So Canadas main role as a peacekeeper is immoral? Interesting perspective.All Harper said he wanted to do was give them a means to at least get to an area of strife without hitching a ride on a US aircraft carrier and of course the liberal d**ks ran with it.

What I'm thinking is pretty immoral is a Prime Minister that wouldnt vote for tougher laws against child pornography,backed a gun registry that was supposed to cost $200 million but now stands at $2 billion and hasnt accomplished squat,and shrugged of 100's of millions of misappropriated funds.

Left wing,apathetic,overtaxed Canada gets exactly the government they deserve.God forbid we would ever want to change.
Re: child porn. If you investigated, you'd find that Canada does currently have some of the toughest child pornography laws in the world. The only iffy-ground is keeping some 'artistic' works legal i.e. we can read Lolita.

Re: Misappropriated funds. ALL ruling governments are guilty of spending money, sometimes not wisely, sometimes not to the approval of all citizens. Not saying anyone should approve of the mis-spending of the gun registry or the sponsorship thing, but just look into the HUGE deficit the Tories ran up under Mulroney.... every penny spent wisely there?!?! Yeah, right.

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Old
06-29-2004, 09:46 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strapping Jocks
Re: child porn. If you investigated, you'd find that Canada does currently have some of the toughest child pornography laws in the world. The only iffy-ground is keeping some 'artistic' works legal i.e. we can read Lolita.

Re: Misappropriated funds. ALL ruling governments are guilty of spending money, sometimes not wisely, sometimes not to the approval of all citizens. Not saying anyone should approve of the mis-spending of the gun registry or the sponsorship thing, but just look into the HUGE deficit the Tories ran up under Mulroney.... every penny spent wisely there?!?! Yeah, right.
You are talking about the deficit inherited by Mulroney from the Trudeau regime.

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Old
06-29-2004, 09:51 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
You are talking about the deficit inherited by Mulroney from the Trudeau regime.
Mulroney also nearly tripled that defecit... let's not forget that minor point.

Don't get me wrong, Trudeau certainly wasn't a good Prime Minister... but there was a reason Mulroney was run out of the country, and why the P.C.'s got absolutely hammered in that election. There was a hole, and instead of filling it, Mulroney filled it with dynamite and made it a hell of a lot bigger, and did a lot more damage in the process.

He did absolutely nothing to make it better, but did a hell of a lot to contribute to it's worsening. Let's not forget that. Trudeau certainly made the snowball, but Mulroney pushed it down the 5 mile high hill into the waiting town below.

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06-29-2004, 10:12 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
You are talking about the deficit inherited by Mulroney from the Trudeau regime.
oh, Brian overspent some of the country's cash as well...

At the end of the day, I think many Canadians who voted Liberal A) have been waiting a while to see Martin at the head of the Liberals and want to give him a chance, B) are more comfortable with the devil they know then the one they don't.

A minority gov't will be good for keeping the Liberals on their toes, and we can look forward to another election in about 13 months.

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Old
06-29-2004, 10:28 AM
  #35
guymez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strapping Jocks
oh, Brian overspent some of the country's cash as well...

At the end of the day, I think many Canadians who voted Liberal A) have been waiting a while to see Martin at the head of the Liberals and want to give him a chance, B) are more comfortable with the devil they know then the one they don't.

A minority gov't will be good for keeping the Liberals on their toes, and we can look forward to another election in about 13 months.
Actually this country didn't have a debt or a deficit prior to Trudeaus reign. It appears to be a Liberal invention.

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06-29-2004, 10:34 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Mulroney also nearly tripled that defecit... let's not forget that minor point.
Awwe man, why did we have to bring politics to this board?

I always thought I was somewhat in sinc with you Dawgbone, now I have to rethink all of my positions.

Another minor point. The prosperity that the Liberals boast about was accomplished on the back of the American economy and Mulroneys NAFTA agreement. Not to mention the GST (which was probably the single biggest factor in the Conservative decimation in '93) which the Liberals were supposed to cancel but instead happily collected to help create their surpluses.

Anyways, back to hockey....

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Old
06-29-2004, 10:36 AM
  #37
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Spending more on the military is one policy I'm firmly on side with the conservatives. Hopefully they can exert enough preassure to get the military some more cash.

Apart from that, I'm so glad that the Conservatives didn't win a majority. For those who think that the Conservatives plan would not plunge the country back into deficit... I'm curiouse how it will pay for itself? Although the gun registry, and sponsorship scandals really piss me off, the initial large cost of the gun registry is now paid for (and from what I've read, police departments actually love the thing), and the sponsorship scandal was never that much money. To me, the similarities to the Trudeau/Molruney years, as well as the recent Bush tax cuts illustrate how easy it is to plunge the country into deficit.

And then there is the whole not wanting to respect the supreme courts decisions on constitutional rights. I'm sorry, but that's just dumb... to say that the court is overstepping its mandate when it is protecting minority rights goes against the entire point of a constitution.

Bleh - I don't know... I guess I was a social liberal when I lived in Edmonton, and living in Quebec certainly hasn't helped me.

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06-29-2004, 10:36 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez
Actually this country didn't have a debt or a deficit prior to Trudeaus reign. It appears to be a Liberal invention.
Thanks... it was mentioned that Trudeau started it... way to stay on the ball there.

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06-29-2004, 10:41 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
Awwe man, why did we have to bring politics to this board?

I always thought I was somewhat in sinc with you Dawgbone, now I have to rethink all of my positions.

Another minor point. The prosperity that the Liberals boast about was accomplished on the back of the American economy and Mulroneys NAFTA agreement. Not to mention the GST (which was probably the single biggest factor in the Conservative decimation in '93) which the Liberals were supposed to cancel but instead happily collected to help create their surpluses.

Anyways, back to hockey....
NAFTA?

NAFTA has hurt Canada a hell of a lot more than it has helped it, for the simple reason that NAFTA rules and regulations come up only when it suits the United States of America, such as United States Anti-Dumping
Duty Law , United States Countervailing Duty Law , U.S. Trade Remedy
Law, United States Anti-Dumping Duty Investigations regarding Imports from
Canada and the United States Safeguard Law on Canadian Hard Wood,
Rock Salt, Heavy Walled Rectangular Welded, Carbon Steel Pipes, Iron
Construction Castings, Oil Country Tubular Goods, Brass Sheet and Strip,
Fresh Cut Flowers, Colour Picture Tubes, Potassium Chloride, Certain Welded
Carbon Steel Line Pipe, Fabricated Structural Steel, New steel Rails,
Thermostatically Controlled Appliance, Plugs and Internal Probe Thermostats,
Generic Cephalexin Capsules from Canada, Limousines, Magnesium, Ball
Bearings, Mounted or Unmounted, Nepheline Syenite, Steel Wire Rope,
Potassium Hydroxide, Liquid and Dry, Medium Voltage Underground
Distribution Cable, Certain Flat-Rolled Carbon Steel Products, Certain Steel
Wire Rod, Certain Steel Wire Rod, Certain Stainless Steel Plate 133, Certain
Stainless Steel Round Wire Rod, Cattle, Softwood 1, Softwood 2,
Softwood 3, Live Swine and Fresh, Chilled and Frozen Pork Products,
Magnesium, Certain Laminated Hardwood Trailer Flooring, Certain Steelwire
Rod, 2. Carbon and Certain Alloy Steel Products, Wood Shingles and Shakes,
Steel Fork Arms, Certain Cameras, Corn Brooms, Tomatoes and Bell Pepper,
Wheat Gluten, Lamb Meat, Certain Steel Wire Rod, Circular Welded Carbon
Quality Line Pipe, Live Cattle and lets look at the beef industry, that has taken a
big hit from the U.S.

Now, I didn't get all of those myself, I actually had a list of about 10, but when I was doing my reading up for the election I came across the rest.

NAFTA certainly hasn't done much to help Canada, but it's sure given the U.S. everything they've wanted.

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06-29-2004, 10:48 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Mulroney also nearly tripled that defecit... let's not forget that minor point.

Don't get me wrong, Trudeau certainly wasn't a good Prime Minister... but there was a reason Mulroney was run out of the country, and why the P.C.'s got absolutely hammered in that election. There was a hole, and instead of filling it, Mulroney filled it with dynamite and made it a hell of a lot bigger, and did a lot more damage in the process.

He did absolutely nothing to make it better, but did a hell of a lot to contribute to it's worsening. Let's not forget that. Trudeau certainly made the snowball, but Mulroney pushed it down the 5 mile high hill into the waiting town below.
I am not a political historian. From what I understand the deficit went from $38.5 Billion under Trudeau to $42 Billion under Mulroney, which would have to be considered a marginal increase. The election loss for the Conservatives in 1993 had much to do with a poorly run campaign(Making fun of Chretien's disability), and the problems with Mulroney were the same ones that we have today with the Liberals. His appointment of two new Senators to pass the GST was as beligerent as the Liberals of today(Which is what stemmed the rise of the Canadian Alliance Party). Mulroney's unpopularity stemmed moreso from things beyond his control, such as Quebec separatists and failed constitutional talks(Which sprung the Bloc Quebecois), and global economic recession.

The last thing that the Mulroney did before he left was ratify the NAFTA agreement, and since 1993 the Canadian economy has continued to prosper. I don't suppose we want to give the credit to the government that spend $2 Billion on a useless gun registry as the reason that we are flush.

There are many reasons that you can dislike Mulroney, but creating our debt was not one of them. His inability to correct what he inherited from the Liberals would be a valid complaint.

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Old
06-29-2004, 10:52 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
There are many reasons that you can dislike Mulroney, but creating our debt was not one of them. His inability to correct what he inherited from the Liberals would be a valid complaint.
I agree with you - but to me, the pertinent question is which party will run a deficit in future, and as far as I'm concerned the only party that would not do so is the Liberals.

NPD = huge deficit
Conservatives = huge deficit
Block = huge deficit

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06-29-2004, 10:54 AM
  #42
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My whole problem is that we are no longer choosing the best person to run the country.

We are now choosing the guy who doesn't make us look at him in utter confusion when he talks, or who doesn't look like the loosest cannon.

It's unfortunate that Canada is a 2 party system (and yes, they are a 2 party system), where you are picking one of the lesser 2 evils. Neither side is really right, and both sides have problems.

Even our tertiary candidate scares the crap out of me... the NDP's issue for everything is to increase spending, then hike up the taxes to compensate... no thanks.

We aren't picking the best leader, we are picking the leader who doesn't piss us off... and of course it results in us flip-flopping between the 2 sides of the spectrum, which results in us standing in that perpetual state of limbo.

I am not a card-carrying member of either party, I just pick the party who's leader I feel is less likely to run this country (or my province into the ground). It has a lot more to do than just policies... it's the leaders themselves, and what they say and how they act.

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06-29-2004, 10:55 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
NAFTA?

NAFTA has hurt Canada a hell of a lot more than it has helped it, for the simple reason that NAFTA rules and regulations come up only when it suits the United States of America, such as ...
These are just challenges that the US has made against NAFTA.

Do you really believe that these challenges have outweighed the benefit that we have experienced?

I wonder how many auto plants would be in Southern Ontario without NAFTA, how many jobs are directly attributed to trade with the US, why the Government keeps our dollar so suppressed against the US dollar, why we have such a large trade surplus....

I would suggest that these challenges that the US keep arguing have more to do with the benefit that we are experiencing at the expense of the US more than anything else.

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06-29-2004, 10:57 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
NAFTA?

NAFTA certainly hasn't done much to help Canada, but it's sure given the U.S. everything they've wanted.
So all of our economic surpluses can't be attributed in part to trade with our largest partners.

Our LIBERAL government has this to say about NAFTA....

As we near the tenth anniversary of the implementation of the NAFTA, it is important to take stock of its achievements. The verdict is clear -- it has been a great success for Canada and its North American partners, and we are committed to ensuring that it continues to help us to realize the full potential of a more integrated and efficient North American economy.

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/nafta-alena/menu-en.asp

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06-29-2004, 11:00 AM
  #45
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I don't want to discuss this anymore...partially because it is getting me hot under the collar for no reason.

I will leave with this though. Today, I don't feel like a Canadian. I feel like a Westerner.

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06-29-2004, 11:04 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
These are just challenges that the US has made against NAFTA.

Do you really believe that these challenges have outweighed the benefit that we have experienced?

I wonder how many auto plants would be in Southern Ontario without NAFTA, how many jobs are directly attributed to trade with the US, why the Government keeps our dollar so suppressed against the US dollar, why we have such a large trade surplus....

I would suggest that these challenges that the US keep arguing have more to do with the benefit that we are experiencing at the expense of the US more than anything else.
All of which are in place because it is cheaper to operate with in Canada, which is a huge benefit to the U.S. automobile manufacturers. But when it comes to things that benefit Canada a great deal, such as lumber, it is red-taped to death, hurting a big chunk of the Canadian industry.

The U.S. only wants free-trade when it is a clear benefit to their producers... and they've made sure that has been the case every since the free-trade agreement was introduced. It's helped some industries, but it's killed others. The U.S. has too many options for out-clauses because it gets the things it can't provide from Canada, but won't accept anything from Canada that compete's with what they do.

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06-29-2004, 11:05 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Bachul
I don't want to discuss this anymore...partially because it is getting me hot under the collar for no reason.

I will leave with this though. Today, I don't feel like a Canadian. I feel like a Westerner.
Yeah, what George said. :mad:

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06-29-2004, 11:08 AM
  #48
guymez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
NAFTA?

NAFTA has hurt Canada a hell of a lot more than it has helped it, for the simple reason that NAFTA rules and regulations come up only when it suits the United States of America, such as United States Anti-Dumping
Duty Law , United States Countervailing Duty Law , U.S. Trade Remedy
Law, United States Anti-Dumping Duty Investigations regarding Imports from
Canada and the United States Safeguard Law on Canadian Hard Wood,
Rock Salt, Heavy Walled Rectangular Welded, Carbon Steel Pipes, Iron
Construction Castings, Oil Country Tubular Goods, Brass Sheet and Strip,
Fresh Cut Flowers, Colour Picture Tubes, Potassium Chloride, Certain Welded
Carbon Steel Line Pipe, Fabricated Structural Steel, New steel Rails,
Thermostatically Controlled Appliance, Plugs and Internal Probe Thermostats,
Generic Cephalexin Capsules from Canada, Limousines, Magnesium, Ball
Bearings, Mounted or Unmounted, Nepheline Syenite, Steel Wire Rope,
Potassium Hydroxide, Liquid and Dry, Medium Voltage Underground
Distribution Cable, Certain Flat-Rolled Carbon Steel Products, Certain Steel
Wire Rod, Certain Steel Wire Rod, Certain Stainless Steel Plate 133, Certain
Stainless Steel Round Wire Rod, Cattle, Softwood 1, Softwood 2,
Softwood 3, Live Swine and Fresh, Chilled and Frozen Pork Products,
Magnesium, Certain Laminated Hardwood Trailer Flooring, Certain Steelwire
Rod, 2. Carbon and Certain Alloy Steel Products, Wood Shingles and Shakes,
Steel Fork Arms, Certain Cameras, Corn Brooms, Tomatoes and Bell Pepper,
Wheat Gluten, Lamb Meat, Certain Steel Wire Rod, Circular Welded Carbon
Quality Line Pipe, Live Cattle and lets look at the beef industry, that has taken a
big hit from the U.S.

Now, I didn't get all of those myself, I actually had a list of about 10, but when I was doing my reading up for the election I came across the rest.

NAFTA certainly hasn't done much to help Canada, but it's sure given the U.S. everything they've wanted.
Thanks for the over simplification.
Pretty easy to cut and paste some stuff off of a left wing website and offer no explanation, other than to say it's NAFTA. Ther are valid reasons for Canada's manufacturing sector suffering after the implimentation of NAFTA. Primarily it is due to the fact that our manufacturing sector ( 99% of the content of your post) was severly lacking in technological inovation compared to the U.S.. Untill we complete the transition we are going to have to absorb some losses. Once the transition is complete, we should be able to compete very successfully. As an example, our high tech industry has benefited from NAFTA.
Also the Liberal strategy of calling the Americans " ******** and morons" must of had a positive effect on negotiations such as softwood lumber.

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06-29-2004, 11:17 AM
  #49
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Well from a BC perspective...

I'm glad a number of my fellow British Columbians took the plunge and voted NDP. I'm in Peter Julian's riding and happily still under the NDP. After that whole Svend Robinson fiasco there were some worries that we'd fall under that awful conservative banner.

As for the minority - I say it would have been fantastic if only the NDP were able to nab a couple of seats more. Then the Liberals and NDP would have to work together in government and that would create more good than bad for left leaning thinkers like myself.

As for the conversatives and their Alberta Mecca? Why do you think I am in BC? It's not just the rainforest and beaches. I honestly don't get along or see eye to eye with most of my fellow albertans I grew up with. I believe in a society that values its people and treats them well.

Also, to state for the record: the NDP vowed to balance every budget. Had they not - the country could have voted them out next time. But a Green platform and family/average person valued commitment would have ensured that all of us could benefit - not just those in the upper tax brackets.

I often dream of our country being more like some of the European countries with 6hr workdays and free post-secondary along with healthcare. Unfortunately we are too close to the United States and its influence to ever come close to it and they - it seems to me - are always the anchor holding us back.

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06-29-2004, 11:26 AM
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The Rage
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Here's a nice discussion of the Mulroney/Trudeau deficit issue: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=84907

I think it's clear that Trudeau started the mess, but Mulroney let it get much worse. You can a look at the numbers yourself.The fact is, it doesn't matter who started it. Paul Martin ended it, and if you had a look at the Tory platform (increased spending and lowering taxes to spurn the economy to pay for that spending--a strategy that never works) they would have started it up again.

What's with this nonsense about being angry that Kilgour got elected, Thome and LMHF#1? You guys clearly know nothing about Kilgour or who was running against him. Kilgour was so far beyond his rival in terms of character, intelligence, and work ethic that it is absolutely ridiculous. I didn't want to vote liberal. However, there was no way Kilgour deserved to lose that election so I had to. You can't even paint Kilgour with the "liberal" brush. He's a rogue who stands up for what his constituents believe in, no matter how angry that makes the higher-ups in the party.

I find it funny when people in Alberta bring up the gun registry. Electricity deregulation has cost average Albertans far more, yet we vote in the conservatoves with huge majorities. Hyprocrites.

Then there is the "sponsorship scandal." This is ridiculous. Don't all you realize that it occured under Chretien? That one of Paul Martin's first actions as the PM was to axe the sponsorship program? Of course, as finance minister he knew about it. But what did you all expect him to do? Commit political suicide by making a big issue about it then? Instead, he waited until he was PM and then he got rid of it.

Of course, then there's the issue of social conservatism. Personally, I'd rather have a government that mismanages funds rather than one that impedes social progress. This country was moving forward. We were going to legalize marijuana (drug laws are just as bad as gun laws--both have massive costs and do not solve the problems they are supposed to, but drug laws are on a far larger scale). We were going to allow gay marriage. We were moving forward as a nation. I don't mind fiscal conservatism (as long as it comes with balanced budgets) but social conservatism is an abomination. Preventing minorities from having basic rights, pursuing irrational laws, and outlawing research that could save lives--there's no way I would vote for that.

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