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Setoguch for Gologoski?

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Old
02-09-2011, 03:34 PM
  #26
wraith985
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Boy, this rumor sure doesn't like to go away. Although if it's Dreger, at least there's a shred of credibility this time around.

I've always liked this deal and would do it without much hesitation. I happen to like Setoguchi, but I think Goligoski's value to the team would be greater than Setoguchi's and mobile puck-movers are harder to find than speedy 20 goal wingers.

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02-09-2011, 03:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
That's why the Wellwood pickup actually makes a lot of sense. Granted, it's a limited sample size (22 playoff games) but his 0.6 PPG average in the postseason is up there compared to other Sharks.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Here's the Pitt defensive qualcomp. Doesn't look so good for Gogo when combined with Corsi. Basically says that Gogo is not a significant upgrade over Braun.

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02-09-2011, 03:49 PM
  #28
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If Coyle came up our RH shots would be fine but I think we weaken our offense without Gooch. I would get a rental but not trade a top 6. We had tons of options during FA. We shouldn't trade just to make a move. There could be other options without losing our forward depth.

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02-09-2011, 03:54 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Here's the Pitt defensive qualcomp. Doesn't look so good for Gogo when combined with Corsi. Basically says that Gogo is not a significant upgrade over Braun.
Thank you. I still have a long ways to go to understand most of the behindthenet stats (most elements of GVT still confuse me) but from what I can tell that's certainly mediocre. And absolutely agreed on Braun being preferable to having to lose Seto for Gogo.

Also, to the person above me: Coyle is at least two years away from even making an AHL appearance let alone being a top six forward for an NHL team embroiled in a playoff hunt.

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02-09-2011, 04:03 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
That's where you're wrong (and I don't mean to pick on you, a lot of people seem to have the same viewpoint). Look at the Hawks' and Flyers' top three scoring lines last spring:

Byfuglien--Toews--Kane
Brouwer--Sharp--Hossa
Ladd--Bolland--Versteeg

Leino--Briere--Hartnell
Gagne--Richards--Asham
vanRiemsdyk--Carter--Giroux

Those are three lines that can put the puck in the net and, when everyone is healthy and playing to their potential, the Sharks can finally say that they're capable of icing that. Giving away Seto not only derails the team down to two lines, it takes away one of only two players with speed in the entire top nine. Yes, the Sharks need a PMD. Yes, Goligoski is the type of player they should be targeting but not at the cost of Setoguchi because it really is just filling one hole by creating another.
While I completely get what you are saying about being able to score from three lines I think the biggest key in having that scoring threat comes from having strength down the middle. If you look at the Wings and Pitts that was clearly the case too.

With the emergence of Couture I think this Shark's team is as deep or deeper down the middle than the Hawks or Flyers

Thornton, Pavelski, Couture
Toews, Kane, Bolland
Richards, Carter, Briere

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02-09-2011, 04:22 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Here's the Pitt defensive qualcomp. Doesn't look so good for Gogo when combined with Corsi. Basically says that Gogo is not a significant upgrade over Braun.

Looking at qualcomp with Corsi I think that Kevin Klein from Nashville would be a better option.
He might come at a cheaper price than Setoguchi.

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02-09-2011, 04:31 PM
  #32
Danish Pastry
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i am with turnstyle... at least when he isnt scoring he is still one of our better forchecking guys... and i dont see Golo as that much of an upgrade over demers or braun...

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02-09-2011, 05:43 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...12+13+14+15+16

Here's the Pitt defensive qualcomp. Doesn't look so good for Gogo when combined with Corsi. Basically says that Gogo is not a significant upgrade over Braun.
I never liked basing my judgment entirely on stats like qualcomp or whatever. Looking at Goligoski actually play, his puck poise and defensive ability under pressure is no doubt higher than Demers and Braun. Like hockeyball said, he's probably what Demers will be in a year or two. You guys seriously can't think that a rookie with less than twenty NHL games under his belt with be able to handle the pressure of the playoffs while playing 20+ minutes a game. Goligoski isn't the greatest option, but his style of play would be a substantial improvement over what the Sharks currently have.

Also, do you guys think that Greene from NJ will be available and for how much? If it'd only cost like a 2nd rounder +, that wouldn't be too bad and a line up of
Vlasic - Boyle
Greene - Goligoski
Murray - Demers
is pretty good. They'd have to somehow get rid of Huskins and Wallin though.
I guess it's a dream, but it's a more realistic dream that getting someone like Seabrook.

Of course
Vlasic - Boyle
Murray - Goligoski
Huskins - Demers
is pretty respectable as well.

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02-09-2011, 06:06 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish Pastry View Post
i am with turnstyle... at least when he isnt scoring he is still one of our better forchecking guys... and i dont see Golo as that much of an upgrade over demers or braun...
Consistency is a problem for all players, but for Setoguchi, it's a huge problem. On the games where he isn't forechecking or scoring, he's just a liability out there. At least the others have defensive and positional intelligence out there. I'd even argue that Ferriero, while his offense and speed is clearly worse than Setoguchi, has more defensive awareness than he does.

I'm not too fond of trading Setoguchi myself, but he's really the weakest link out of the forwards (aside from I guess Heatley, but we know he's not going anywhere). Goligoski is actually a pretty fair return; we can't expect to trade a player like Setoguchi and get a player like Suter back.

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02-09-2011, 06:11 PM
  #35
SJeasy
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WT,

I don't base my judgment on stats alone, I use them in conjunction with viewing and as a finalization of what I have seen. I can understand his qualcomp being down because of their other defensive options. He does show one sign of being better than his qualcomp which is his +/-. His Corsi should be much higher if he is overmatching his competition. When a guy is underutilized because of team depth his relative +/- should be above others. It is for Gogo. However, the same should hold true for Corsi and it doesn't.

When a guy is down on Corsi or +/- relative to his team, he is being overmatched. Boyle is a good case for this example. Defensively, he is middle pairing, but he is taking on top pairing assignments.

And here is the reason for the low Corsi on Gogo:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstatspr...rt=gamesPlayed
Giveaway/Takeaway ratio.

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02-09-2011, 06:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danish Pastry View Post
i am with turnstyle... at least when he isnt scoring he is still one of our better forchecking guys... and i dont see Golo as that much of an upgrade over demers or braun...
why does he have to be a upgrade over demers or braun? all he would have to be an ugrade over come playoff time is wallin or huskins.

defense come playoffs with gologoski.

boyle, vlasic, murray, gologoski, demers, braun (maybe), wallin or huskins.

seto is the most useless forward in the sharks line up, yes he has speed (is good to have, if you have other tools to go with it), but he's been absolutely garbage offensively for 2 full seasons now, he doesn't have the defensive awareness to play on the 4th line

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02-09-2011, 06:13 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
WT,

I don't base my judgment on stats alone, I use them in conjunction with viewing and as a finalization of what I have seen. I can understand his qualcomp being down because of their other defensive options. He does show one sign of being better than his qualcomp which is his +/-. His Corsi should be much higher if he is overmatching his competition. When a guy is underutilized because of team depth his relative +/- should be above others. It is for Gogo. However, the same should hold true for Corsi and it doesn't.

When a guy is down on Corsi or +/- relative to his team, he is being overmatched. Boyle is a good case for this example. Defensively, he is middle pairing, but he is taking on top pairing assignments.
But using Corsi to back up an argument that he would be no better than Braun?

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02-09-2011, 06:17 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I never liked basing my judgment entirely on stats like qualcomp or whatever. Looking at Goligoski actually play, his puck poise and defensive ability under pressure is no doubt higher than Demers and Braun. Like hockeyball said, he's probably what Demers will be in a year or two. You guys seriously can't think that a rookie with less than twenty NHL games under his belt with be able to handle the pressure of the playoffs while playing 20+ minutes a game. Goligoski isn't the greatest option, but his style of play would be a substantial improvement over what the Sharks currently have.

Also, do you guys think that Greene from NJ will be available and for how much? If it'd only cost like a 2nd rounder +, that wouldn't be too bad and a line up of
Vlasic - Boyle
Greene - Goligoski
Murray - Demers
is pretty good. They'd have to somehow get rid of Huskins and Wallin though.
I guess it's a dream, but it's a more realistic dream that getting someone like Seabrook.

Of course
Vlasic - Boyle
Murray - Goligoski
Huskins - Demers
is pretty respectable as well.
I think the guys we have a shot of getting are Greene and Hejda, both pending UFA rentals on potential non-playoff teams (Especially Greene). I don't think there's any chance we could get Gogo and Greene. I think just one will happen, most likely Greene or Hejda.

I suggest today and Friday keeping an eye on Hejda and Greene when you watch the games to get a sense of their abilities.

Greene's probably the most likely as his price could merely be a 2nd/3rd round pick. He's a steal for a 3rd round pick given we need a PMD for this season and he would be just that.

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02-09-2011, 06:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I never liked basing my judgment entirely on stats like qualcomp or whatever. Looking at Goligoski actually play, his puck poise and defensive ability under pressure is no doubt higher than Demers and Braun. Like hockeyball said, he's probably what Demers will be in a year or two. You guys seriously can't think that a rookie with less than twenty NHL games under his belt with be able to handle the pressure of the playoffs while playing 20+ minutes a game. Goligoski isn't the greatest option, but his style of play would be a substantial improvement over what the Sharks currently have.

Also, do you guys think that Greene from NJ will be available and for how much? If it'd only cost like a 2nd rounder +, that wouldn't be too bad and a line up of
Vlasic - Boyle
Greene - Goligoski
Murray - Demers
is pretty good. They'd have to somehow get rid of Huskins and Wallin though.
I guess it's a dream, but it's a more realistic dream that getting someone like Seabrook.

Of course
Vlasic - Boyle
Murray - Goligoski
Huskins - Demers
is pretty respectable as well.
I like Greene and I think the Sharks can swing him for roughly a 2nd rounder which is a great deal since he isn't a strict rental (RFA at the end of the year IIRC). Calling up Braun would give the Sharks:

Murray--Boyle
Vlasic--Braun
Greene--Demers

Sure, not exactly a shutdown defensive team but they'd score a TON of goals. And, honestly, Greene and Braun are no worse than Wallin and Huskins in their own end.

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02-09-2011, 06:18 PM
  #40
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No thanks.

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02-09-2011, 06:21 PM
  #41
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The more and more I think about it, the more I think this could work only if the Pens are the ones inquiring and not vice-versa. This needs to be the Pens desperate for Seto because they think Seto will score 40-50 goals on Crosby's wing and thus DW can use their desperation for that to extract Gogo and Lovejoy and have our top 6 dmen set for several years.

If it is DW shopping Seto and making the inquiries, I'd rather it not be to the Pens since the Pens will probably find a way to fleece the Sharks.

If we are going to deal Seto, it would be ideal to deal him in such a way that the other team slightly overpays.

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02-09-2011, 06:22 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
I like Greene and I think the Sharks can swing him for roughly a 2nd rounder which is a great deal since he isn't a strict rental (RFA at the end of the year IIRC). Calling up Braun would give the Sharks:

Murray--Boyle
Vlasic--Braun
Greene--Demers

Sure, not exactly a shutdown defensive team but they'd score a TON of goals. And, honestly, Greene and Braun are no worse than Wallin and Huskins in their own end.
Greene is UFA at the end of the year, pure rental. Still thinking his price is a 2nd or 3rd rounder in 2011.

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02-09-2011, 06:25 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
But using Corsi to back up an argument that he would be no better than Braun?
Braun is a small sample size which is a problem to start with. Braun is overmatching on +/-. He also has the same Corsi issue, no better/no worse. My point is that neither Gogo nor Braun are really addressing the Sharks issues. They need more on the defensive side of the puck than those two provide. And by defensive side, I am including moving the puck out of the zone. I am criticizing it because it is a very marginal trade with marginal results to be expected.

Someone else mentioned Klein where I haven't seen much (very little Preds viewing this year), but his stats would make him a much better target. He has enough on the defensive side to push others down beyond Wallin and Huskins along with his puckmoving.

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02-09-2011, 06:26 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
The more and more I think about it, the more I think this could work only if the Pens are the ones inquiring and not vice-versa. This needs to be the Pens desperate for Seto because they think Seto will score 40-50 goals on Crosby's wing and thus DW can use their desperation for that to extract Gogo and Lovejoy and have our top 6 dmen set for several years.

If it is DW shopping Seto and making the inquiries, I'd rather it not be to the Pens since the Pens will probably find a way to fleece the Sharks.

If we are going to deal Seto, it would be ideal to deal him in such a way that the other team slightly overpays.
That's all a lot of fantasy. Seto for Gogo straight up is pretty fair, i doubt we see much in the way of adds going either way in that deal.

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02-09-2011, 06:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Greene is UFA at the end of the year, pure rental. Still thinking his price is a 2nd or 3rd rounder in 2011.
Brainfart, sorry. I was thinking of Campoli for some reason who I also think would be a good addition (albeit at a greater cost).

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02-09-2011, 06:30 PM
  #46
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Don't mess with the depth. Please.

Gogo sucks defensively. He's still a project. Not worth Setoguchi.

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02-09-2011, 06:47 PM
  #47
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I believe the Sharks would be better off trading a 2nd and a prospect for a rental Kaberle than trading Seto for Goligoski. Thoughts?

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02-09-2011, 06:49 PM
  #48
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I'd be ok with it depending on the prospect. Mcginn and a 2nd would be about the max I'd consider.

Problem with Kab's is he's a pure rental, almost no chance he'll re-sign here. I'd rather spend assets on a guy that we might be able to re-sign at least.

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02-09-2011, 06:51 PM
  #49
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Someone else mentioned Klein where I haven't seen much (very little Preds viewing this year), but his stats would make him a much better target. He has enough on the defensive side to push others down beyond Wallin and Huskins along with his puckmoving.
I wouldn't mind Klein, but I don't think he'd even be available. They are doing fine on their own offensive wise already, so I don't see why they would give up a defensive staple.
Pittsburgh on the other hand, with Crosby, Malking, Letestu, Asham, and Kunitz out, need all the forward depth they can get. Plus Goligoski isn't as useful to them as he would be to the Sharks considering their Top-4 is pretty much set.

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02-09-2011, 07:09 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I wouldn't mind Klein, but I don't think he'd even be available. They are doing fine on their own offensive wise already, so I don't see why they would give up a defensive staple.
Pittsburgh on the other hand, with Crosby, Malking, Letestu, Asham, and Kunitz out, need all the forward depth they can get. Plus Goligoski isn't as useful to them as he would be to the Sharks considering their Top-4 is pretty much set.
The thing is that I don't go with an availability argument. If the right guy isn't available, it just becomes a trade for trade's sake. My point was that Gogo is at best a marginal improvement, because trading Seto creates hole albeit not a large one and because Gogo is not that much of an upgrade over Braun. For me, it has to be a clear improvement and it really shouldn't be a rental due to the dearth of Sharks' prospects.

Just so others are clear, I have been a leader in saying that the need is NOT for a defensive dman (eg Regehr, Phillips), but I am not in favor of a pure offensive guy either. My opinion is that the guy has to be a two-way guy and beyond bottom pairing. It narrows the field a lot.


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