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Old
12-22-2010, 12:11 AM
  #76
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Chris Nilan, they don't make em like they used to, born in Boston and dreamed of being a Bruin, drafted by the Habs, became a true Hab, cried when he was traded. Oh man, that scenario could just not exist today, the game and players have changed so much since then. He bled the bleu, blanc, et rouge and was born in freakin Boston.

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12-22-2010, 12:13 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LMFAO View Post
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about, at some point this season pittsburgh was leading the league in both hits and fighting major and Chicago had a great team toughness last year when they won the cup, they had to trade Byfuglien, Ladd, Eager and Burish because of cap reason, and that's a big reason why they are struggling this season.


Dallas was a great example of what team toughness is, no useless goons but some big tough player with skills on the top 6 ( Neal, Benn, Morrow) , a hard hitting bottom six ( Ott, Segal, Burish, Sutherby) and a couple of hard hitting defenseman (Robidas, Grossman, Fristic, Skrastsin)
and besides right now how was dallas playing those past years ? and you mentionned Neal Benn And Morrow but what team woudlnt like Powerforwards ? never said ne thing about PF's everyone loves them and every GM wants them but just like your lil buddy you should get back to reality and face the fact that we have none and has for Goons i still say we dont need them

Montreal reached the eastern Finals last year with probably the smallest team in the NHL i guess that was just luck right ?


BTW The Bruins always had this huge team with toughness and hows their playoffs or season record against Montreal the team who needs toughness to win ?

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12-22-2010, 12:17 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
I miss Darren Langdon !
I'd second that. He never complained and filled his role perfectly. If we can't get a Neil, can we please get a Langdon clone please? Does Cody McLeod win fights? He can chip in too.

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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
and besides right now how was dallas playing those past years ? and you mentionned Neal Benn And Morrow but what team woudlnt like Powerforwards ? never said ne thing about PF's everyone loves them and every GM wants them but just like your lil buddy you should get back to reality and face the fact that we have none and has for Goons i still say we dont need them

Montreal reached the eastern Finals last year with probably the smallest team in the NHL i guess that was just luck right ?


BTW The Bruins always had this huge team with toughness and hows their playoffs or season record against Montreal the team who needs toughness to win ?
Do we still have a feisty Roy between the pipes? You can't go all the way when your team is small, soft and has 0 elite guys. Detroit has Datsyuk and Zetterberg whereas Pits has Malkin and Crosby.

If our best fighter in the bottom 6 is Moen and we play against Boston/Philly or even Pitts, we are screwed in advance b/c refs won't call most of the penalties.

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12-22-2010, 12:32 AM
  #79
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Do we still have a feisty Roy between the pipes? You can't go all the way when your team is small, soft and has 0 elite guys. Detroit has Datsyuk and Zetterberg whereas Pits has Malkin and Crosby.

If our best fighter in the bottom 6 is Moen and we play against Boston/Philly or even Pitts, we are screwed in advance b/c refs won't call most of the penalties.
beat the bruins & beat pitts in the playoffs and has for philly

Mike Richards
Jeff Carter
Claude Giroux
Simon Gagne ( Traded )
Daniel Briere
Chris Pronger
Timonen
Meszaros
JVR

best team in the eastern division


Yes the Habs could deff use some Powerforwards in our top 6 but every team needs them but we still have bigger holes to fix like finding someone who can replace Markov ? puck carrier dman is our main problem right now bcuz we have none..its always the same thing with us game after game Gomez is the only one who can bring the puck inside the offensive zone and hes our center besides him we have nobody who can carry a puck outside our zone and thats exactly why we create turnovers in our zone or just play safe and dump the puck


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12-22-2010, 01:18 AM
  #80
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not that I disagree with you, but the Ducks cup winning team was very much a group that used intimidation/physical play to wear down their opponents.
Burkies "truculence" actually working.


regardless, count me as in the 'wishing we had more toughness in the lineup" group.
I'll take talent over size any day of the week, but there are a lot of talented players out there that are tough as nails as well.
we really don't have any players in the lineup that clearly enjoy (and are capable of) causing the opposition physical pain, and that kind of mentality is good to have at least somewhere in the lineup.

not a goon, but a tough hockey player who hits to hurt (in the cleanest sense possible) would be nice...
Yeah, Anaheim is as close as you're gonna find, and even that is a stretch in terms of "scary", imo. But I should clarify, even if the indisputable top 10 guys in the league were all pure skill guys under 5'10" with little to no rep for grit, I wouldn't think I was making a wise decision by putting them all on the same team. Heck, I'll take a 6'2" guy who is slightly to noticeably less talented than the 5'9" guy beside him every time. Doesn't matter if either has a nasty streak or not.

A 6'2" frame is automatically tougher than 5'9" in my books, and any in the vast majority of cases I don't need to further consider the personality/style of the players to choose. Size snob, I know, but understand that I also know there are limitations; a full team of 6'9" giants obviously isn't going to guarantee wins every time. But, I think a full team of ultra talented 5'8"/5'9" guys is going to have a hard time playing in the NHL against even a mediocre club on which every player has 5+ inches on them. Again, I don't feel the need to focus too much on the "truculence" or "mean streaks" if there's enough compete level there to begin with.

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12-22-2010, 01:57 AM
  #81
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Well we had a very tough defense not so long ago with Bouillon, Souray, Rivet and Komisarek.

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12-22-2010, 02:00 AM
  #82
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Bring. Souray. Back.


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12-22-2010, 03:00 AM
  #83
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Works great for Toronto. Why not for us?

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12-22-2010, 06:23 AM
  #84
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Works great for Toronto. Why not for us?
Works great for Philly why not us ! MooT

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12-22-2010, 08:23 AM
  #85
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Just having, like, one player who was intimidating and who could protect our smaller guys from becoming intimidated would add another dimension to our team.

We're a team that wins either by speed causing powerplay advantages or by the goalie cartwheeling on 2-on-1s. If we fail to cash in on PPs, or the refs decide to eat their whistles or Price has an off night (which will probably become more frequent as he wears down from exhaustion over the season), then we get stomped out.

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:31 AM
  #86
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The team's we had under Tremblay were quite tough. The 96-97 had a fair bit of toughness, although they were not very good.

Quintal, Baron, Manson and Rivet on D.

Stevenson, Corson, Thornton, Tucker, Chris Murray at forward...a bit of Brashear and Brad Brown in the mix as well.

Ultimately i want a good team. But certainly i have always preferred a team with more toughness. Not necessarily mindless goons, but certainly alot more than the current team has.

I personally think we need a better mix, but that's not going to happen as long as Gauthier/Martin are leading this team.

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12-22-2010, 09:01 AM
  #87
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I think some people here are extremely delusional in thinking the Habs don't need more size/toughness in addition to talent. What's funny is we traded the one guy who added toughness, size and physicality (O'Byrne).

People hate seeing Gomez, Cam, Subban fighting...well...that's what happens when you have a soft team. Guys who shouldn't be fighting end up fighting.

We have quite possibly the softest team in the league. If you think toughness is not required, you are completely dumb.

And for the last time, being tough does not mean you need a goon. It also doesn't mean you need to fight. So stop using that stupid angle.

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12-22-2010, 09:31 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
I think some people here are extremely delusional in thinking the Habs don't need more size/toughness in addition to talent. What's funny is we traded the one guy who added toughness, size and physicality (O'Byrne).

People hate seeing Gomez, Cam, Subban fighting...well...that's what happens when you have a soft team. Guys who shouldn't be fighting end up fighting.

We have quite possibly the softest team in the league. If you think toughness is not required, you are completely dumb.

And for the last time, being tough does not mean you need a goon. It also doesn't mean you need to fight. So stop using that stupid angle.
Agreed. If you have an absolutely stacked team at every position then I can understand the reluctance to have a few tougher players, but when you have guys like Pyatt, Darche and Picard playing regularily, then there is no excuse not to have a tougher group.

But this is what you get with Gauthier/Martin teams. Accept it.

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12-22-2010, 10:11 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by PunkinDrublic View Post
Works great for Philly why not us ! MooT
Phillie has the same size team as we do. Giroux Richards Timonen are smaller skill guys, even Carter at 195lbs is not a physical specimen. The average weight and height of their top 5 scorers: 6' and 184lbs. Ours is 5'11" 189lbs.

Not sure where everybody gets this notion that they are a big tough team. They are a greasy team and play with an edge but they won't beat anybody with size and strength.

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Agreed. If you have an absolutely stacked team at every position then I can understand the reluctance to have a few tougher players, but when you have guys like Pyatt, Darche and Picard playing regularily, then there is no excuse not to have a tougher group.

But this is what you get with Gauthier/Martin teams. Accept it.
Gauthier seems to like tough depth players, that's why he pushed to add Schultz to the Halak deal. He has Conboy, White, Henry, Bonneau, Schultz on Hamilton's roster, if he didn't like those type of players he wouldn't have added Schultz or signed Bonneau or Henry(re-signed).

I think JM believes in "turning the other cheek" moreso than standing up for your players, that's why they signed Darche and Boyd instead of going after a guy like MacIntyre, Boulton, Eager, Hordichuk etc

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12-22-2010, 10:20 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Gauthier seems to like tough depth players, that's why he pushed to add Schultz to the Halak deal. He has Conboy, White, Henry, Bonneau, Schultz on Hamilton's roster, if he didn't like those type of players he wouldn't have added Schultz or signed Bonneau or Henry(re-signed).

I think JM believes in "turning the other cheek" moreso than standing up for your players, that's why they signed Darche and Boyd instead of going after a guy like MacIntyre, Boulton, Eager, Hordichuk etc
Bonneau and Conboy are not NHL calibre players, IMO. Henry it seems has no future with the team.

I'm talking about acquiring guys like Prust, Asham and Eager.

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Phillie has the same size team as we do. Giroux Richards Timonen are smaller skill guys, even Carter at 195lbs is not a physical specimen. The average weight and height of their top 5 scorers: 6' and 184lbs. Ours is 5'11" 189lbs.

Not sure where everybody gets this notion that they are a big tough team. They are a greasy team and play with an edge but they won't beat anybody with size and strength.
What? Didn't they beat Boston last year?

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12-22-2010, 10:27 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
I think some people here are extremely delusional in thinking the Habs don't need more size/toughness in addition to talent. What's funny is we traded the one guy who added toughness, size and physicality (O'Byrne).

People hate seeing Gomez, Cam, Subban fighting...well...that's what happens when you have a soft team. Guys who shouldn't be fighting end up fighting.

We have quite possibly the softest team in the league. If you think toughness is not required, you are completely dumb.

And for the last time, being tough does not mean you need a goon. It also doesn't mean you need to fight. So stop using that stupid angle.
You make me laugh.

On one side you say that you don't need to fight to be tough, but then you turn around and call our team "the softest team in the league". What a moronic statement.

I guess being 5'7" makes Gionta "soft" even though he routinely wins battles against bigger players and is fearless out there. Cammalleri is a bit bigger but not quite as gritty, but he is still a guy that will pay the price against bigger players, same for Plekanec and Gomez(when he decides to attack the middle of the ice).

I'm all for adding an enforcer to the 4th line/13th forward mix, but JM would have that player in the press box every night in favor of Pyatt. Just look at O'byrne who was sitting for a month so Picard could play, even though he was far and away our most physical defenseman and best fighter on the club.

That being said, toughness or lack thereof has not been the problem lately. If you look at the highlights of the last 6 games(5 losses) you will see that the defense has made a pile of blunders and giving up too many great scoring chances(odd man rushes, breakaways, players let uncovered). To me that is a much much bigger priority than your "size" obsession. We have more than enough size up front(Pacioretty Eller AK Pouliot Darche Moen Lapierre) that nobody should beat us based on size.

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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Bonneau and Conboy are not NHL calibre players, IMO. Henry it seems has no future with the team.

I'm talking about acquiring guys like Prust, Asham and Eager.
Did you bother reading my message? Read it slowly and try to grasp what I am saying!

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12-22-2010, 10:33 AM
  #92
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Did you bother reading my message? Read it slowly and try to grasp what I am saying!
I read it. I know what Gauthier has done and I don't agree with it.

What does having Bonneau and Conboy have to do with this team? Nothing. They are not NHL players.

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12-22-2010, 10:36 AM
  #93
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I read it. I know what Gauthier has done and I don't agree with it.

What does having Bonneau and Conboy have to do with this team? Nothing. They are not NHL players.
Well if Gauthier(like Martin) didn't see the need for guys like that on a team he wouldn't have 5-6 of them in Hamilton. Regardless of if they are NHL players or not, the Habs control whom they sign in Hamilton. Obviously Gauthier thinks there is a benefit to those types of players.

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12-22-2010, 10:37 AM
  #94
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Yeah, Anaheim is as close as you're gonna find, and even that is a stretch in terms of "scary", imo. But I should clarify, even if the indisputable top 10 guys in the league were all pure skill guys under 5'10" with little to no rep for grit, I wouldn't think I was making a wise decision by putting them all on the same team. Heck, I'll take a 6'2" guy who is slightly to noticeably less talented than the 5'9" guy beside him every time. Doesn't matter if either has a nasty streak or not.

A 6'2" frame is automatically tougher than 5'9" in my books, and any in the vast majority of cases I don't need to further consider the personality/style of the players to choose. Size snob, I know, but understand that I also know there are limitations; a full team of 6'9" giants obviously isn't going to guarantee wins every time. But, I think a full team of ultra talented 5'8"/5'9" guys is going to have a hard time playing in the NHL against even a mediocre club on which every player has 5+ inches on them. Again, I don't feel the need to focus too much on the "truculence" or "mean streaks" if there's enough compete level there to begin with.
i guess we do differ on opinions...

as far as toughness, or improving team toughness, give me a 5"nothing Theo Fleury any day of the week over a 6'4 230pd Brad Isbister...

of course, if sticking solely to mass generalizations, the bigger the player the tougher the player, but in real terms the league is littered with big framed softies and small framed pit bulls.

Hal Gill is a monster, and has learned to use his huge size to his advantage DESPITE wisely not playing a physical/"tough" game (i say wise b/c with his awful mobility, he can't look to hit & still make the right defensive plays)., meanwhile Bouillion is a midget, but hits like a truck.

I think the "mean streak" or "truculence" is EXACTLY what makes a "tough" player. Of course being 6'+ makes it easier to play that way, but size alone is not the biggest factor, at least not in my books.


our problem is that we have lot's of midgets AND we don't really have any "mean streak" type players.
Pleks, Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta... all tough little guys, but none of them play a physical game.

Moen and Hamrlik would be the closest thing to it in our lineup, but neither are particularly intimidating.

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Old
12-22-2010, 10:37 AM
  #95
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You make me laugh.

On one side you say that you don't need to fight to be tough, but then you turn around and call our team "the softest team in the league". What a moronic statement.

I guess being 5'7" makes Gionta "soft" even though he routinely wins battles against bigger players and is fearless out there. Cammalleri is a bit bigger but not quite as gritty, but he is still a guy that will pay the price against bigger players, same for Plekanec and Gomez(when he decides to attack the middle of the ice).

I'm all for adding an enforcer to the 4th line/13th forward mix, but JM would have that player in the press box every night in favor of Pyatt. Just look at O'byrne who was sitting for a month so Picard could play, even though he was far and away our most physical defenseman and best fighter on the club.

That being said, toughness or lack thereof has not been the problem lately. If you look at the highlights of the last 6 games(5 losses) you will see that the defense has made a pile of blunders and giving up too many great scoring chances(odd man rushes, breakaways, players let uncovered). To me that is a much much bigger priority than your "size" obsession. We have more than enough size up front(Pacioretty Eller AK Pouliot Darche Moen Lapierre) that nobody should beat us based on size.
Size does not equal toughness any way you look at it. Pouliot and Eller are not tough players.

Who's a tougher player? Brandon Prust or Lars Eller? Give me a break.

Toughness IS something this team lack as well as a good mobile defense core etc.

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12-22-2010, 10:47 AM
  #96
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Size does not equal toughness any way you look at it. Pouliot and Eller are not tough players.

Who's a tougher player? Brandon Prust or Lars Eller? Give me a break.

Toughness IS something this team lack as well as a good mobile defense core etc.
You can have 1 or 2 "Prusts" on a team but any more than that you will look like Toronto and be going for a lottery pick. I would have no problem with a guy like that on the roster, but I'd prefer a Thornton type that can play a regular shift and fight the bigger guys.

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12-22-2010, 10:49 AM
  #97
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You can have 1 or 2 "Prusts" on a team but any more than that you will look like Toronto and be going for a lottery pick. I would have no problem with a guy like that on the roster, but I'd prefer a Thornton type that can play a regular shift and fight the bigger guys.
Problem is we don't have any...

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12-22-2010, 11:15 AM
  #98
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You make me laugh.

On one side you say that you don't need to fight to be tough, but then you turn around and call our team "the softest team in the league". What a moronic statement.

I guess being 5'7" makes Gionta "soft" even though he routinely wins battles against bigger players and is fearless out there. Cammalleri is a bit bigger but not quite as gritty, but he is still a guy that will pay the price against bigger players, same for Plekanec and Gomez(when he decides to attack the middle of the ice).

I'm all for adding an enforcer to the 4th line/13th forward mix, but JM would have that player in the press box every night in favor of Pyatt. Just look at O'byrne who was sitting for a month so Picard could play, even though he was far and away our most physical defenseman and best fighter on the club.

That being said, toughness or lack thereof has not been the problem lately. If you look at the highlights of the last 6 games(5 losses) you will see that the defense has made a pile of blunders and giving up too many great scoring chances(odd man rushes, breakaways, players let uncovered). To me that is a much much bigger priority than your "size" obsession. We have more than enough size up front(Pacioretty Eller AK Pouliot Darche Moen Lapierre) that nobody should beat us based on size.
We're soft buddy...

Cam? You ever see him go chase the puck into the corner and give a body check? He does this soft spin and slowly taps the player with his butt.

You can be as feisty as you want, if you're on the smaller end, you can be neutralized, which is what happened in the Philly series.

Here's why size matters....as strong as Gio is...he's still a small guy who doesn't take up much space...he's not going to pose a threat to a 6'4 225 lb defenseman retrieving the puck in the corner. We play dump and chase but never get the puck cuz you have to lay the body, and our top 6 doesn't do that besides Andrei. If I have the puck and I see Gionta skating towards me I won't be as nervous as someone like Andrei skating towards me. It's a psychology game...it doesn't matter if you're soft or not...bigger people have an intimidation factor. Which is why in life, the smaller guys always get picked on...whereas the bigger dudes aren't as much as they're given the benefit of the doubt.

We have some bigger guys in Pouillot, Eller, MaxPac...unfortunately they're inexperienced, they'll be better later on.

It' no surprise that the Gomez/Gio duo looks oh so much better with a big winger (Pouillot, Maxpac).

You don't need a team of giants, but you need a nice mix, we don't have that.

Toughness is not the cause for this latest slide, but a bigger, tougher team could have perhaps won a couple of those games. I hate how we never dictate the pace of the game. Way too passive.

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12-22-2010, 11:22 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
I read it. I know what Gauthier has done and I don't agree with it.

What does having Bonneau and Conboy have to do with this team? Nothing. They are not NHL players.
You forgot to add Schultz to that list. Bonneau and Conboy are several steps closer to making the jump than him, but that ain't saying much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
i guess we do differ on opinions...

as far as toughness, or improving team toughness, give me a 5"nothing Theo Fleury any day of the week over a 6'4 230pd Brad Isbister...

of course, if sticking solely to mass generalizations, the bigger the player the tougher the player, but in real terms the league is littered with big framed softies and small framed pit bulls.

Hal Gill is a monster, and has learned to use his huge size to his advantage DESPITE wisely not playing a physical/"tough" game (i say wise b/c with his awful mobility, he can't look to hit & still make the right defensive plays)., meanwhile Bouillion is a midget, but hits like a truck.

I think the "mean streak" or "truculence" is EXACTLY what makes a "tough" player. Of course being 6'+ makes it easier to play that way, but size alone is not the biggest factor, at least not in my books.


our problem is that we have lot's of midgets AND we don't really have any "mean streak" type players.
Pleks, Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta... all tough little guys, but none of them play a physical game.

Moen and Hamrlik would be the closest thing to it in our lineup, but neither are particularly intimidating.
I guess we do differ in opinion a bit, but I don't really disagree with anything you've said above (because ultimately it's not "wrong"). I wouldn't pull out Theo Fleury (since his retirement, has there actually been another undersized player of sufficiently comparable impact?) and Brad Isbister as representing the vast majority of players their size. The vast majority of people Theo's size, almost regardless of talent, don't end up cutting it at the top level, and there's a reason. Similarly, Gallagher was left off the WJCs for a reason, and it's not his inability to put pucks in the net or play with 100% intensity every shift. And no one has a 5'8" guy that they send after guys like Asham, or whomever, so it's obviously much easier to find a bigger guy who's much "tougher" than even the toughest "midget" out there - and thus I resist your opinion that size isn't the most important fundamental factor/starting point if you're going to develop a game with a "mean streak". It's folly to underestimate the compete level (or talent, more importantly) of the small guys who actually make the big show, but it's also erroneous to suggest that they have no more difficulty persevering the physicality and tenacious checking of the NHL than bigger guys, and therein lies the inherent "toughness advantage" to bigger players from the get-go, imo.

We can pull out singular examples of players all day to suit our arguments (I'm pretty sure my list will end up bigger, no pun intended, lol), but it's telling that the quote you often hear from scouts/GMs around trade or draft time is that they're looking to get "bigger and tougher". Rarely is it just "tougher", although I submit that "bigger" would be implied almost 100% of the time that teams only say they're looking to get "tougher". I don't mean to say that as fact; that's my overwhelming impression, and nothing more. I do agree that our mix of undersized talent and supporting "skilled toughness" isn't ideal, even considering that Cammy and Gio are far from creampuffs.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 12-22-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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12-22-2010, 01:57 PM
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Monctonscout
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
We're soft buddy...

Cam? You ever see him go chase the puck into the corner and give a body check? He does this soft spin and slowly taps the player with his butt.

You can be as feisty as you want, if you're on the smaller end, you can be neutralized, which is what happened in the Philly series.

Here's why size matters....as strong as Gio is...he's still a small guy who doesn't take up much space...he's not going to pose a threat to a 6'4 225 lb defenseman retrieving the puck in the corner. We play dump and chase but never get the puck cuz you have to lay the body, and our top 6 doesn't do that besides Andrei. If I have the puck and I see Gionta skating towards me I won't be as nervous as someone like Andrei skating towards me. It's a psychology game...it doesn't matter if you're soft or not...bigger people have an intimidation factor. Which is why in life, the smaller guys always get picked on...whereas the bigger dudes aren't as much as they're given the benefit of the doubt.

We have some bigger guys in Pouillot, Eller, MaxPac...unfortunately they're inexperienced, they'll be better later on.

It' no surprise that the Gomez/Gio duo looks oh so much better with a big winger (Pouillot, Maxpac).

You don't need a team of giants, but you need a nice mix, we don't have that.

Toughness is not the cause for this latest slide, but a bigger, tougher team could have perhaps won a couple of those games. I hate how we never dictate the pace of the game. Way too passive.
What happened in the Phillie series was that they had more depth than us and their 3rd line beat us. That and their #1 d-man was there and ours was in the press box. Both teams top players were wore down but their 3rd line scored like 7 or 8 goals in the series. Making it about size is more spin doctoring, Washington is a much bigger team than Phillie(biggest in the NHL in fact) and we beat them in round 1.

We have a nice mix of size and speed, but minus Mrakov we have a huge hole on defense that's caught up to us the last couple weeks as Picard has gone from solid to horrible and guys like Hamrlik Gorges and Spacek are showing a bit of fatigue with the extra ice time and responsibilities.

How would being bigger and tougher have prevented Picard from giving the puck away in glaring fashion the last few games? He is 220lbs, would a 240lbs d-man make smarter decisions? Same with Subban and Spacek to a lesser extent.

We have dictated the pace of the game in a lot of games, outshooting teams and spending a bunch of time in the opposing zone but a few bad defensive lapses has been like a punch in the gut.

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