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The Toughness Thread (all related talk here)

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Old
12-22-2010, 02:00 PM
  #101
Hannibal
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I'm jealous of teams that have toughness.I could tolerate it for a couple of years but is it me or it's been this way for 20 years now? When was the last time we actually were a scary team? I'm not even trying to defend them anymore , there's no point trying to defend something that you cannot defend.This is what happens when you put 21 millions on 3 small players in 1 summer locking them for the next 5 years.You shoot yourself in the foot.I'm tire of ************ myself and reading a bunch of other habs fans lying to themselves.I wish we had nasty players.I wish other fans called our team dirty but deep in their heart were just scared their players would be injured and wish they had our team.Right now i'm pretty much this fan , scared for our players everytime we play a tough team and ashamed when I realise we just can't drop them very effectively.I know toughness is a hot topic but it's always about trying to find one big player on the top 6 or stuff like that , it's not enough for my taste.I want a scary team.After this horrible core of players are done with us I truly wish things will get better...

EDIT: The worst ''lying to ourselves'' example I can give was when people started to talk about ''team toughness'' when in reality we were probably the weakest team in the league ahahah wow talk about helping ourselves sleep better at night.
I'm with you!"

I want more toughness on our team. That's the only missing part of our team.

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Old
12-22-2010, 02:00 PM
  #102
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I've watched hockey for years and I don't remember any player losing as many battles as Mike Cammalleri.They might be some players that were as horrible as him , but that's the kind of player you forget about quickly , exactly like I will in his case when his overpaid ass get out of town.

On a positive note , I thought Gomez was skating well last night. ( see? not all negative )

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Old
12-22-2010, 02:16 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Bonneau and Conboy are not NHL calibre players, IMO. Henry it seems has no future with the team.

I'm talking about acquiring guys like Prust, Asham and Eager.
why worry about toughness, didn't you see PK's fight last night. habs got all the toughness they need.

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Old
12-22-2010, 02:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=845163

You and JayBee will probably become good friends.

Don't kid yourself ..... there's a lot more of us than JayBee and the OP .... but you choir boy posters dominate this board there's no point arguing the merits of a tough team combined with skill like we had in the 70's, 80's and to certain extent in the 90's (Odelein, Ewen, etc ...)

Enjoy the free fall out of a playoff spot during this road trip...

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Old
12-22-2010, 03:21 PM
  #105
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I do not want useless bigger bodies. Bigger does not equal stronger and mean. In the mid to late nineties, I remember us having some bigger players who were marshmellows on the ice. The players I am refering to are Peter Popovic and Vlad Malakhov.

Despite what I have said, our team is indeed way to easy to play against! We literally have no one that instills fear in the opposition nor anyone that can retrieve pucks in the corner with any regularity. I hate them but I want a team like the Flyers on the ice.

As well, I think most of the problems we have on the ice stem from suspect drafting, piss poor player development, and god awful profressional scouting. As a reult, we were forced to pay for smaller players last season in order to ice somewhat of a competitive team because we did not have any young players coming up.

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Old
12-22-2010, 05:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by AllCanadienFan View Post
why worry about toughness, didn't you see PK's fight last night. habs got all the toughness they need.
I hope you are kidding. Or trolling, I honestly hope.

He got ass-*****. He got totally destroyed by the other player. Like if he completely forgot how to skate. He was used like a ragdoll.

That boost the other team's moral over the roof. We need payerS who can win fights in any situations.

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Old
12-22-2010, 05:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Habarazzi View Post
Don't kid yourself ..... there's a lot more of us than JayBee and the OP .... but you choir boy posters dominate this board there's no point arguing the merits of a tough team combined with skill like we had in the 70's, 80's and to certain extent in the 90's (Odelein, Ewen, etc ...)

Enjoy the free fall out of a playoff spot during this road trip...
Yeah we'll fall out of a playoff spot because of toughness not because of our terrible defense.

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Old
12-22-2010, 05:24 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
I'm with you!"

I want more toughness on our team. That's the only missing part of our team.
so, what you're saying is our offense is fine ? as well as our D ?


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Old
12-22-2010, 05:31 PM
  #109
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Toughness is overrated. This "momentum" nonsense after a fight is ******** superstition.

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Old
12-22-2010, 05:33 PM
  #110
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Management haven't a clue, another reason why I can't stand the upper brass.

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Pernell Karl View Post
Yeah we'll fall out of a playoff spot because of toughness not because of our terrible defense.
Oh sure It's all because of the D now .... two weeks ago they were 1st or 2nd in the league in GA and I'm sure it wasn't ALL Carey Price's doing.

Not saying it's the lack of toughness that has them in this slump either but it sure would be nice to stand up and win a battle or two when things aren't going your way on the scoreboard ... you'd be surprised what kind of an effect it can have on team morale sometime

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:23 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Habarazzi View Post
Oh sure It's all because of the D now .... two weeks ago they were 1st or 2nd in the league in GA and I'm sure it wasn't ALL Carey Price's doing.

Not saying it's the lack of toughness that has them in this slump either but it sure would be nice to stand up and win a battle or two when things aren't going your way on the scoreboard ... you'd be surprised what kind of an effect it can have on team morale sometime
Price was making the big saves and bailing out our defense a lot and lately he hasn't been making those saves and its finally exposing our defense. We had Subban logging big minutes and playing well for us, now Subban is struggling big time and as a result those minutes are getting distributed to 3 guys over 35 years old, an injured Gorges and an AHL caliber defenseman in Picard.

Its not just the D that is killing us our forwards aren't burying their chances and the effort level isn't the same as the beginning of the year, sure it'd be nice to have another gritty guy or two in the lineup but some of the people in this thread are making it sound like we've been losing because our lack of toughness which clearly isn't the case.

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:32 PM
  #113
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Toughness is overrated. This "momentum" nonsense after a fight is ******** superstition.
And you would know that how exactly?

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:33 PM
  #114
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And you would know that how exactly?
the same way others think it isnt superstition I assume

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:38 PM
  #115
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The glory of opinions, eh?

(edit) Almost forgot:

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:45 PM
  #116
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As long as we're gonna be pushovers, we're not gonna win games. It was laughable when the Habs were trying to get back in the game against the Stars, it was EASY for the Stars to counter the Habs' offence. They looked like children. Moreau smacking Picard in the face when all is lost was the icing on the cake.

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:51 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
We're soft buddy...

Cam? You ever see him go chase the puck into the corner and give a body check? He does this soft spin and slowly taps the player with his butt.

You can be as feisty as you want, if you're on the smaller end, you can be neutralized, which is what happened in the Philly series.

Here's why size matters....as strong as Gio is...he's still a small guy who doesn't take up much space...he's not going to pose a threat to a 6'4 225 lb defenseman retrieving the puck in the corner. We play dump and chase but never get the puck cuz you have to lay the body, and our top 6 doesn't do that besides Andrei. If I have the puck and I see Gionta skating towards me I won't be as nervous as someone like Andrei skating towards me. It's a psychology game...it doesn't matter if you're soft or not...bigger people have an intimidation factor. Which is why in life, the smaller guys always get picked on...whereas the bigger dudes aren't as much as they're given the benefit of the doubt.

We have some bigger guys in Pouillot, Eller, MaxPac...unfortunately they're inexperienced, they'll be better later on.

It' no surprise that the Gomez/Gio duo looks oh so much better with a big winger (Pouillot, Maxpac).

You don't need a team of giants, but you need a nice mix, we don't have that.

Toughness is not the cause for this latest slide, but a bigger, tougher team could have perhaps won a couple of those games. I hate how we never dictate the pace of the game. Way too passive.
size have nothing to do with toughness... look around, Dallas won with "big guys" like... Ribeiro ? Morrow ? Richards ? really... Colorado ? they're no bigger than we are...

Hell, even the Flyers arent that big upfront, Briere, Richards, Nodl, Giroux are no bigger than Plekanec... they do have Jeff soft as butter Carter who's bigger though, that must be him who people are refering to when talking about bullies or maybe power forward Nikolay Zherdev (6'2 over 200 pds)...

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Old
12-22-2010, 08:57 PM
  #118
Kimota
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
The idea that what the Habs lack is something called "toughness" is so dumb, so utterly ignorant of the most basic truths about how hockey games are won and lost, so completely, moronically uninformed about the history of hockey and particularly the history of the Montreal Canadiens -- who have always been a "classy" franchise, always in the best years depended on outscoring and outplaying the opposition , were the ones who took the Broad Street Bullies out of hockey -- that it leaves your mouth open in wonder that such stupidity is humanly possible. In addition, all the Habs have drafted in the first round for the past thirty years are players they thought would be big and "physical". The reason the team has slumped is because of these bad choices, beginning with WIckenheiser over Savard. Really, if you don't know all, of any of this, then you're not a hockey fan, and certainly don't deserve to be a Habs fan, and you should rush over and watch some professional wrestling and leave the real hockey fans in peace.
It seems to me you don't have much awareness of how hockey is played, even when you watch them. Toughness is a whole team concept. Red Wings may not fight much but they are strong on the body. That being said, that same Red Wings team would be eaten alive by the Red Wings team of the 90s with the likes of Shanahan.

Also if the Habs would have not have had guys like Tremblay and Lambert and Larry and especially Bouchard they would never have gone through the 70s Flyers. That's the thing, today's Habs team have ZERO amunition to prevent being intimidated or put the hurting on the opposition. Toughness still matters. The Atlanta Trashers got completly transformed by it by the addition of Buff, Ladd and Eager.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
size have nothing to do with toughness... look around, Dallas won with "big guys" like... Ribeiro ? Morrow ? Richards ? really... Colorado ? they're no bigger than we are...

Hell, even the Flyers arent that big upfront, Briere, Richards, Nodl, Giroux are no bigger than Plekanec... they do have Jeff soft as butter Carter who's bigger though, that must be him who people are refering to when talking about bullies or maybe power forward Nikolay Zherdev (6'2 over 200 pds)...
Flyers have a big size on D. Ideally it's to have size and toughness and drive. Having those three elements is just icing on the cake.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:03 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
size have nothing to do with toughness... look around, Dallas won with "big guys" like... Ribeiro ? Morrow ? Richards ? really... Colorado ? they're no bigger than we are...

Hell, even the Flyers arent that big upfront, Briere, Richards, Nodl, Giroux are no bigger than Plekanec... they do have Jeff soft as butter Carter who's bigger though, that must be him who people are refering to when talking about bullies or maybe power forward Nikolay Zherdev (6'2 over 200 pds)...
A soft 6'2 Jeff Carter is a lot more imposing than a 5'7 Gionta. Can't believe you're comparing Philly's forwards to the Habs. Philly is the perfect mix of size, skill, toughness.

Size matters, go cry about it.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:28 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the same way others think it isnt superstition I assume
Hmmm... possible. How many here have actually lived to tell the experience of fighting in hockey and the effect it has on a team I wonder?

EDIT:

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:29 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
A soft 6'2 Jeff Carter is a lot more imposing than a 5'7 Gionta. Can't believe you're comparing Philly's forwards to the Habs. Philly is the perfect mix of size, skill, toughness.

Size matters, go cry about it.

who's big AND play big on their top 6 ?

Carter ? soft, Richards ? small, Briere ? small, Nodl ? small, Zherdev ? soft, Giroux ? small...


come on, the guy after you gave the awnser, that's an easy one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Hmmm... possible. How many here have actually lived to tell the experience of fighting in hockey and the effect it has on a team I wonder?

EDIT:
unless it's one of the good player on the team it has NONE, and even then, it has little.

seriously, I remember being on the bench quite a few times while one of our teammate was fighting... we were talking on the bench, we were just happy to have a 2 min break.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:53 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
unless it's one of the good player on the team it has NONE, and even then, it has little.

seriously, I remember being on the bench quite a few times while one of our teammate was fighting... we were talking on the bench, we were just happy to have a 2 min break.
Really? Were you the only one sitting back on the bench then, as the rest of the team was standing against the board, pumped watching the guy going to war for his teammates and cheering if he beat the crap out of the opponent?

Seriously, people may pretend all they want but just like a big save or a big hit, a WON fight or seeing a leader on the team fight is a huge lift for the team when they're sleeping. Never will anyone convinced me otherwise. I've seen it happen way too often.

However, the reverse can be also true if your fighter gets his clock cleaned, that I'll admit.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:55 PM
  #123
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Two players who come to mind for both positions with toughness, and can drop the gloves and could come cheap.

(EDM)Zach Stortini - Can fight, got some good skating, drives the net, and can put in a few for his very very limited ice time. Maybe a 4th round pick for him if they are out by the deadline.

(PIT)Deryk Engelland - Can drop the gloves, plays well defensively, can clear the crease as well. He is like the 6/7th dman in Pittsburgh, could be had possibly for Carle or maybe a 4th/5th.

I am not saying it is going to change our team, but getting the grit in there and possibly guys who will drop the gloves for the players who get pushed around on our team.

A line of Moen Halpern Stortini would look nice and possibly a Picard/Gorges and Engelland would look pretty decent as well.

We could have 2 guys who could come in and step up for teammates.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:58 PM
  #124
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And for those that think that Toughness is gone in the NHL, well, there's more fights than ever now in the NHL. Just look at the statistic.

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Old
12-22-2010, 09:59 PM
  #125
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Honnestly Gamblor, a guy like Stortini would help. So would a top 6 power forward like Penner (not physical in terms of hits, but uses his big body well) and a defenseman like Bieksa would be the last piece of the puzzle to make this team a contender.

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