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Old
02-12-2011, 01:17 PM
  #26
gotmonte
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why would richards come to new york than? If he plays with Gabby most likely his point totals will go through the roof!

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02-12-2011, 01:19 PM
  #27
Dfence033
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Originally Posted by Tuomaz View Post
sadly having top10 talent doesn't win games for you. actually playing maybe
I'm assuming that last part is a crack about Gaborik's injury history? Funny you'd bring that up when Pitkanen is being discussed. Gaborik, even with one season of playing a paltry 17 games averages 64 per season (taking out his 17-game season during which he had almost a 2.0 ppg average, averages 70 games/season). Pitkanen, without having one almost-lost year, averages a whopping... 68 games/season. Amazing that Pitkanen's injury history has never been questioned. Funny how being a super-star talent maximizes the emphasis on being healthy; What does that say about Pitkanen? That he isn't Gaborik (or another equal super-star).

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02-12-2011, 01:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
I've seen both play. I'm not discounting Skinner's value or over-valuing Seguin. Keep in mind, one plays on a team that needs good, cost-controlled, top-6 forwards, and one plays on a team that is so front-loaded with top-6 forwards, not everyone gets a spot. Look, I know you are all coming to defend Skinner, but there is a reason Skinner wasn't considered as one of the top-2 with Hall and Seguin. Their ceilings are sky-high, even if one can't find playing time on a loaded offensive team. What I'm saying is Skinner's value is not the equivalent of Gaborik (neither is Ruutu's despite my love of how he plays), who has been a consistent offensive juggernaut in this league. The Rangers had a rookie by the name of Petr Prucha who scored 30 goals as a rookie, and I don't believe has scored 30 goals in a few season in the NHL since. And while I'm not saying Skinner is the next Prucha, there is no guarantee that he WON'T be the next Prucha on the Rangers. The Rangers don't have an Eric Staal to play with Skinner, especially not if Gaborik is going the other way. How will that affect his production? Pitkanen's value isn't close to Staal, and McBain's value, while he has been a solid player for you, is likely IN REAL LIFE worth about a high second-round pick. The issue is that if the Rangers are making a trade for the sake of gaining cap-space (which seems to be the issue) to run at Richards in the off-season, and doing so by trading Gaborik, they should be getting a very high-ceiling play-making 1C for him, without adding all the excess pieces (like excellent, young, shut-down defensemen, our own young PMD, a good 2-3C, and what is looking like a high second), all just for an extra $3 mil in cap space, ESPECIALLY when more than half of the key pieces in the deal with have to be let go for free in less than 2 years.
So here is my question.....if Seguin is on such a deep forward team, why is he even playing there? WHy doesnt he play in the A, or stay in the Juniors this year? If he was so good that he made the team, why didnt he push anyone else out of a spot in that top 6? Granted, yes, Carolina needed real offensive help in the top 6, and SKinner has filled in perfectly. But that doesnt mean that Seguin couldn't have moved someone else out of the top 6 in Boston if he was really top-2 pick talent. but it seems more to me that Seguin hasnt been able to hack it in Boston, regardless of team depth. Top 2 picks should be able to "hack it" on any team in their top 6 (or top 4 defense).

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02-12-2011, 01:24 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
I'm assuming that last part is a crack about Gaborik's injury history? Funny you'd bring that up when Pitkanen is being discussed. Gaborik, even with one season of playing a paltry 17 games averages 64 per season (taking out his 17-game season during which he had almost a 2.0 ppg average, averages 70 games/season). Pitkanen, without having one almost-lost year, averages a whopping... 68 games/season. Amazing that Pitkanen's injury history has never been questioned. Funny how being a super-star talent maximizes the emphasis on being healthy; What does that say about Pitkanen? That he isn't Gaborik (or another equal super-star).
between the other thread and this.....im getting the sense that you really like to hate on Carolina players. its very easy to find anyone in the league to make any player look bad.

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02-12-2011, 01:28 PM
  #30
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
So here is my question.....if Seguin is on such a deep forward team, why is he even playing there? WHy doesnt he play in the A, or stay in the Juniors this year? If he was so good that he made the team, why didnt he push anyone else out of a spot in that top 6? Granted, yes, Carolina needed real offensive help in the top 6, and SKinner has filled in perfectly. But that doesnt mean that Seguin couldn't have moved someone else out of the top 6 in Boston if he was really top-2 pick talent. but it seems more to me that Seguin hasnt been able to hack it in Boston, regardless of team depth. Top 2 picks should be able to "hack it" on any team in their top 6 (or top 4 defense).
You don't rush a player like Seguin.

Skinner has gotten by this year on his skating and scoring prowess, and the fact that he's getting prime minutes to do so. Kid's playing very well.

Seguin is on a far and away deeper team. No need to rush a talent like that, the only thing that can come of doing so would be to screw his development up. He'll get his time, especially with Savard's career probably in limbo now with his latest concussion.

Edit: Something I thought about after I posted... Why SHOULD Boston rush Seguin and throw him into the top-6 when everything is working for them right now the way it is?


Last edited by CM Lundqvist: 02-12-2011 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Last line...
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Old
02-12-2011, 01:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
So here is my question.....if Seguin is on such a deep forward team, why is he even playing there? WHy doesnt he play in the A, or stay in the Juniors this year? If he was so good that he made the team, why didnt he push anyone else out of a spot in that top 6? Granted, yes, Carolina needed real offensive help in the top 6, and SKinner has filled in perfectly. But that doesnt mean that Seguin couldn't have moved someone else out of the top 6 in Boston if he was really top-2 pick talent. but it seems more to me that Seguin hasnt been able to hack it in Boston, regardless of team depth. Top 2 picks should be able to "hack it" on any team in their top 6 (or top 4 defense).
How about James van Riemsdyk? Jordan Staal played on the 3rd line his entire career. Bobby Ryan spent time in the AHL and only played in 20 games for the Ducks. Kari Lehtonen played in the AHL and only played in 4 games for the Thrashers. That's all in the last 10 years prior to the previous draft. That means 5 of the last 11 2nd overall draft-picks have either not played top-6 minutes, 20 games in the NHL, and/or spent time in the AHL, or some combination of the three. Discounting Staal? Ryan? JVR?Those are in the last 5 years, meaning 4 of the last 6 have done the same trio. And all three of those (Staal, Ryan, JVR) came in to... Wait for it... Loaded offensive teams. They all just happen to be horrible players to not have been able to "hack it" on their teams...

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02-12-2011, 01:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
You don't rush a player like Seguin.

Skinner has gotten by this year on his skating and scoring prowess, and the fact that he's getting prime minutes to do so. Kid's playing very well.

Seguin is on a far and away deeper team. No need to rush a talent like that, the only thing that can come of doing so would be to screw his development up. He'll get his time, especially with Savard's career probably in limbo now with his latest concussion.

Edit: Something I thought about after I posted... Why SHOULD Boston rush Seguin and throw him into the top-6 when everything is working for them right now the way it is?
so it's better for Seguin's development for him to play in the bottom 6 and be a healthy scratch? wouldnt it be better for him to play in the A on the top line every game? thats my point. I wasnt insinuating he wont be better. I was saying, right now....its not even close. And when Seguin HAS been given time, he doenst look at all like he fits in. Skinner getting time on the top 6 probably has a lot to do with the fact that he actually deserves to be there. He hasnt been the best in a few games, but he surely has taken over some games and been THE reason we have won a few games. He definitely is a future leader, and has taken to that role in a few instances already. When you have to choose between the Staal line and the Skinner line to put your top pairing out against......that says something about your rookie.

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02-12-2011, 01:34 PM
  #33
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between the other thread and this.....im getting the sense that you really like to hate on Carolina players. its very easy to find anyone in the league to make any player look bad.
Oh, yay! Here comes the tribe to tell me who I do and don't hate. I JUST stated that I love the way Ruutu plays. I'm on record as saying I love the way Gleason plays (even if I do think some things are questionable, I love the way Ovechkin plays too, but same story there). I think Ward is one of the better up-and-coming goalies in the NHL, and much like Lundqvist, plays behind piss-poor defense on a lot of nights. I think Skinner is having a very impressive season for a rookie. I love Cole's resiliency coming back from that hit. I feel bad for Boychuk that he gets hit the way he does recently. I love what LaRose brings to the table. Shall I go on, or will you continue to say I hate all the Hurricanes? I was comparing the injury/games-played histories of two players brought up IN THE TRADE PROPOSAL. Why is one team allowed to knock one player because of his injury history, yet the other player, with a remarkably similar history, is off-limits?

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02-12-2011, 01:36 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
I'm assuming that last part is a crack about Gaborik's injury history? Funny you'd bring that up when Pitkanen is being discussed. Gaborik, even with one season of playing a paltry 17 games averages 64 per season (taking out his 17-game season during which he had almost a 2.0 ppg average, averages 70 games/season). Pitkanen, without having one almost-lost year, averages a whopping... 68 games/season. Amazing that Pitkanen's injury history has never been questioned. Funny how being a super-star talent maximizes the emphasis on being healthy; What does that say about Pitkanen? That he isn't Gaborik (or another equal super-star).
i didn't compare gaborik to pitkanen.I talked about value and even if gaborik is top-10 talent in league he isn't near that value-wise. that was my point

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02-12-2011, 01:41 PM
  #35
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so it's better for Seguin's development for him to play in the bottom 6 and be a healthy scratch? wouldnt it be better for him to play in the A on the top line every game? thats my point. I wasnt insinuating he wont be better. I was saying, right now....its not even close. And when Seguin HAS been given time, he doenst look at all like he fits in. Skinner getting time on the top 6 probably has a lot to do with the fact that he actually deserves to be there. He hasnt been the best in a few games, but he surely has taken over some games and been THE reason we have won a few games. He definitely is a future leader, and has taken to that role in a few instances already. When you have to choose between the Staal line and the Skinner line to put your top pairing out against......that says something about your rookie.
As much as I've seen the Hurricanes, I can't effectively say there is a "Staal-line" or a "Skinner-line," other than they happen to be on the ice with two other forwards at the time. When you have as many interchangeable parts in the top-6 forward spots (being that you have, what, 4 centers who play wing?), you'd be hard-pressed to say there is a set line, especially when the lines come out differently sometimes every shift...

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02-12-2011, 01:42 PM
  #36
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i didn't compare gaborik to pitkanen.I talked about value and even if gaborik is top-10 talent in league he isn't near that value-wise. that was my point
thank you. that was my point as well. this certain individual looking for a way to bash certain players, pulling **** out of nowhere......

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02-12-2011, 01:43 PM
  #37
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i didn't compare gaborik to pitkanen.I talked about value and even if gaborik is top-10 talent in league he isn't near that value-wise. that was my point
Shouldn't that greatly diminish Pitkanen's value, then? Which makes him less than useless in a trade like this. Again, he isn't useless as a player, but to trade Gaborik for a UFA who won't be kept in the off-season, who doesn't play well when the team in front of him has scoring issues (think the Rangers can't score now, watch them without Gaborik, even in a down-year), either offensively or defensively, isn't very good in his own zone in the first place, has injury and consistency issues... And, well, you get what amounts to a zero-value player to the Rangers, and thus, has no business being in this trade.

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02-12-2011, 01:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Anton Skinner View Post
so it's better for Seguin's development for him to play in the bottom 6 and be a healthy scratch? wouldnt it be better for him to play in the A on the top line every game? thats my point.
No... that's the absolute WORST thing you can do unless you're a team with no expectations and free roam to do whatever you want with your players. When has that worked for young players recently aside from Crosby and Ovechkin, who were two players that were going to get 1st line minutes regardless with the state of their teams at that time?

Even then, there's just so much expectation put on a kid, even if you go and tell them to "just go play hockey", the mind can start to think that you have to live up to the expectations that were bestowed upon you in junior/college etc. immediately.


Quote:
I wasnt insinuating he wont be better. I was saying, right now....its not even close. And when Seguin HAS been given time, he doenst look at all like he fits in. Skinner getting time on the top 6 probably has a lot to do with the fact that he actually deserves to be there. He hasnt been the best in a few games, but he surely has taken over some games and been THE reason we have won a few games. He definitely is a future leader, and has taken to that role in a few instances already. When you have to choose between the Staal line and the Skinner line to put your top pairing out against......that says something about your rookie.

Honestly, I'm not even arguing Seguin/Skinner as to who's better or who will be. I really don't care at this point. Thornton and Marleau were drafted 1-2 in 97 and Marleau due to his footspeed and raw talent had a better start to his career, who ended up being the better player? Just saying, it's too early to even be arguing this.

All I was saying is that if you rush a player with such high expectations and throw him into the fire immediately, I'd say 8 out of 10 times, it doesn't work out for you. There's also no need to do so, with Boston playing as well as they are.

Skinner was placed in a different situation with less forward talent and more of a chance to grab a spot. It was the perfect situation for the kid, and he's responded as he should have to it, and that is very well.

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02-12-2011, 01:46 PM
  #39
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jesus christ.

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02-12-2011, 01:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
As much as I've seen the Hurricanes, I can't effectively say there is a "Staal-line" or a "Skinner-line," other than they happen to be on the ice with two other forwards at the time. When you have as many interchangeable parts in the top-6 forward spots (being that you have, what, 4 centers who play wing?), you'd be hard-pressed to say there is a set line, especially when the lines come out differently sometimes every shift...
are you really reaching that far? the fact that they are those lines. basically staal's line (no matter the other players on it) is the 1st and Skinner line (no matter who is on it) is the 2nd line. but they are the 2 players that are targeted. that IS THE POINT. Staal and Skinner are the 2 that the defense focus on to shut down. If you have the luxury of having 2 players like that, which the Canes really havent had in years, then you can in a way increase the effectiveness of each because there will be plenty of times where one or the other isnt being covered defensively. funny how without Malkin and Crosby in the lineup, the Pens are suffering. Without Staal and Skinner, the Canes would suffer to. Thats the point. It took a while, and took Skinner scoring a lot, way more than anyone expected, but now he is targeted almost as much as Staal, probably why his production has slowed a little.

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02-12-2011, 01:48 PM
  #41
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thank you. that was my point as well. this certain individual looking for a way to bash certain players, pulling **** out of nowhere......
Yes, because Gaborik's injury history diminishes the value of a two-time 40-goal scorer, a six-time 30+ goal scorer, a near PPG player (most of which spent in an extraordinarily defensive system, and the rest being the ONLY guy capable of scoring on a team), who has lead his team by 30 points, showing he can single-handedly carry a team offensively, to well below top-10 trade level, but Pitkanen, a one-time 40 assist guy, playing in an offensive-minded system his entire career (while still being a -25 on the year he did get to 40), with an equally "impressive" injury history, similar consistency issues, and major lack-of-effort histories following him around, remains at the value of anything close to what... Kaberle is (in reality, not on here) worth?

Yes... It's all about me pulling "**** out of nowhere." It HAS to be me having a vendetta against Hurricanes players.

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02-12-2011, 01:50 PM
  #42
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Shouldn't that greatly diminish Pitkanen's value, then? Which makes him less than useless in a trade like this. Again, he isn't useless as a player, but to trade Gaborik for a UFA who won't be kept in the off-season, who doesn't play well when the team in front of him has scoring issues (think the Rangers can't score now, watch them without Gaborik, even in a down-year), either offensively or defensively, isn't very good in his own zone in the first place, has injury and consistency issues... And, well, you get what amounts to a zero-value player to the Rangers, and thus, has no business being in this trade.
you make it sound like i have trashed gaborik even though i dont think i have and if you think pitkanen has zero value so be it i think otherwise.

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02-12-2011, 01:55 PM
  #43
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are you really reaching that far? the fact that they are those lines. basically staal's line (no matter the other players on it) is the 1st and Skinner line (no matter who is on it) is the 2nd line. but they are the 2 players that are targeted. that IS THE POINT. Staal and Skinner are the 2 that the defense focus on to shut down. If you have the luxury of having 2 players like that, which the Canes really havent had in years, then you can in a way increase the effectiveness of each because there will be plenty of times where one or the other isnt being covered defensively. funny how without Malkin and Crosby in the lineup, the Pens are suffering. Without Staal and Skinner, the Canes would suffer to. Thats the point. It took a while, and took Skinner scoring a lot, way more than anyone expected, but now he is targeted almost as much as Staal, probably why his production has slowed a little.
So, let me get this right. The ability to interchange Ruutu and Jokinen with Cole/LaRose and Samsonov/LaRose has no bearing, according to you, on which line the top-pairing's of other teams try to stop? Yeah, cause I'm going to send out my top-pair against a LaRose-Staal-Samsonov line, rather than trying to stop a Ruutu-Skinner-Jokinen line (or vice versa). Are you really trying to argue that if it was Ruutu-Staal-Jokinen or Ruutu-Skinner-Jokinen, the other teams would try to stop that Skinner line instead? If so, I believe that says more about your Captain than it does about your rookie. Again, I'm not saying Skinner isn't having a great season, but to say his worth is more than Seguin+ is ridiculous.

... And did you REALLY just compare a team built around two 100+ point centers, who tie up a SUBSTANTIAL amount of cap, subsequently ensuring they can't sign wingers like Ruutu and Jokinen and are stuck with Dupuis and Kunitz, are similar to Staal-Skinner? Yep, and it's me hating Hurricanes players, not the severe over-valuing of them by you...

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02-12-2011, 01:56 PM
  #44
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Lot of rage in this topic.

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02-12-2011, 02:10 PM
  #45
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So, let me get this right. The ability to interchange Ruutu and Jokinen with Cole/LaRose and Samsonov/LaRose has no bearing, according to you, on which line the top-pairing's of other teams try to stop? Yeah, cause I'm going to send out my top-pair against a LaRose-Staal-Samsonov line, rather than trying to stop a Ruutu-Skinner-Jokinen line (or vice versa). Are you really trying to argue that if it was Ruutu-Staal-Jokinen or Ruutu-Skinner-Jokinen, the other teams would try to stop that Skinner line instead? If so, I believe that says more about your Captain than it does about your rookie. Again, I'm not saying Skinner isn't having a great season, but to say his worth is more than Seguin+ is ridiculous.

... And did you REALLY just compare a team built around two 100+ point centers, who tie up a SUBSTANTIAL amount of cap, subsequently ensuring they can't sign wingers like Ruutu and Jokinen and are stuck with Dupuis and Kunitz, are similar to Staal-Skinner? Yep, and it's me hating Hurricanes players, not the severe over-valuing of them by you...

you just dont get it. not that im surprised. just nevermind dude. just....nevermind.

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02-12-2011, 02:23 PM
  #46
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This is a HORRENDOUS deal for the Rangers.

1. I know Skinner's having a great rookie year, but you can only HOPE that he turns into Marian Gaborik

2. It's Marian ****ING Gaborik... you're kidding right? I wouldn't give him up for all of that alone, I'd re-structure that deal to have Skinner, McBain, a 1st, and then go from there. Even in this down year, he could still put up 30 goals and 60 or so points.

3. We have to give up Marc Staal on top of that?? You're kidding, right?

4. We give up Anisimov and Del Zotto, and we get back Pitkanen (UFA) and Tuomo Ruutu??? This is a slap in the face to Ranger fans everywhere.

This whole trade sucks for the Rangers, and any Canes fans who wouldn't take this have lost their minds.
What's scary is that a Ranger fan proposed this.

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02-12-2011, 02:28 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot
This is a HORRENDOUS deal for the Rangers.

1. I know Skinner's having a great rookie year, but you can only HOPE that he turns into Marian Gaborik

2. It's Marian ****ING Gaborik... you're kidding right? I wouldn't give him up for all of that alone, I'd re-structure that deal to have Skinner, McBain, a 1st, and then go from there. Even in this down year, he could still put up 30 goals and 60 or so points.

3. We have to give up Marc Staal on top of that?? You're kidding, right?

4. We give up Anisimov and Del Zotto, and we get back Pitkanen (UFA) and Tuomo Ruutu??? This is a slap in the face to Ranger fans everywhere.

This whole trade sucks for the Rangers, and any Canes fans who wouldn't take this have lost their minds.


Good luck getting that for Gaborik.

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02-12-2011, 02:36 PM
  #48
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It's really funny that some people seem to think that Gaborik has more trade value than Marc Staal.

It's a far-fetched proposal. I think value-wise, it's there, and I think as far as both teams improving positions of weakness, it's there. That doesn't mean it would ever happen, but I bolded the two Staals because you'd be uniting them on Carolina, and I also bolded McDonagh and McBain because they were a pairing on Wisconsin and have great chemistry. McD the shutdown guy, McB the rover. As good as Staal is, having guys like Girardi, McDonagh, and Sauer allow him to be moved to fill another hole as long as it's a real high-end piece coming back which in this case it is in Skinner (and obviously Staal is better than those three I just mentioned, but they're no slouches) And like one poster mentioned, it only really works for the Rangers if they end up landing Richards after. But I think both lineups are more well rounded and overall BETTER after this trade (and assuming Richards on the Rangers )


Last edited by Zuccarello Awesome*: 02-12-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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02-12-2011, 03:33 PM
  #49
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
This is a HORRENDOUS deal for the Rangers.

1. I know Skinner's having a great rookie year, but you can only HOPE that he turns into Marian Gaborik

2. It's Marian ****ING Gaborik... you're kidding right? I wouldn't give him up for all of that alone, I'd re-structure that deal to have Skinner, McBain, a 1st, and then go from there. Even in this down year, he could still put up 30 goals and 60 or so points.

3. We have to give up Marc Staal on top of that?? You're kidding, right?

4. We give up Anisimov and Del Zotto, and we get back Pitkanen (UFA) and Tuomo Ruutu??? This is a slap in the face to Ranger fans everywhere.

This whole trade sucks for the Rangers, and any Canes fans who wouldn't take this have lost their minds.
Mostly this^.
Would discount Gaborik due to off year, though he's not the only one and a lot of scorers are down in totals this year.

The winner is something more like:
MDZ + Boyle + MZA + Gaborik + a 3rd + a 4th
for
Skinner + McBain + Canes 1st

some extra bodies may be added for cap..

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02-12-2011, 03:46 PM
  #50
Dr. Ogrodnick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuomaz View Post
i didn't compare gaborik to pitkanen.I talked about value and even if gaborik is top-10 talent in league he isn't near that value-wise. that was my point

Considering you valued Pitkanen higher than Staal, I think your value system is pretty broken.

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