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Benoit Pouliot appreciation thread

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:55 PM
  #251
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
funny, Gomez seemed to parlay those same attributes into almost 20min/night playing for Martin...
See, the thing is, Martin does not coach by listening to call-in shows or other ultrashallow media "analysts". He notices who outchances the other teams, who drives the play, and who can handle tough matchups, and doles out icetime accordingly. This is why Gomez was never replaced by media-favorite Desharnais, who l'Antichambre were convinced had suddenly become better than Gomez because he put up points against fourth-liners and on the PP.

(As an aside: if Gomez lost his job or got hurt or whatever, Eller would get a shot at that role way before Desharnais does, no matter what they think on l'Antichambre. Heck, Martin even tried to pit Eller against Krejci in Game 3, whereas Desharnais's line is the most sheltered of all the Habs' forward lines.)

(Another aside: I want to single out the point about Gomez's frequent stupid penalties. A frequent complaint with one small problem: it's factually wrong. This is pure confirmation bias that has no basis in fact. Gomez takes very few penalties. Relative to his icetime, he is one of the most disciplined players in the entire NHL.)

Pouliot can put up some points -- when he's hot, if he's sheltered, and if he's given soft minutes. He does have hands and a good shot, which makes him a perfect guy for someone with hockey sense -- Desharnais, say -- to play off of. But he can't play against top-6 forwards effectively, he's a defensive liability, and he can't drive the play. At this point, he's likely to stay as an utility fourth-liner for his career.

Incidentally... who still thinks that was a good trade?

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:57 PM
  #252
Patrice Brisebois
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Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
Martin Mcguire just said that Pouliot almost injured Price with a high shot around the neck area.

What a tool!
What a Dagenais

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Old
04-20-2011, 03:54 PM
  #253
Richiebottles
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I would like him to get some strength training like Patches did. He needs to beef up or something . Because he cannot be a perimeter player. He would be good if he would crash the net.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:25 PM
  #254
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this thread should not exist.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:33 PM
  #255
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People are wondering if, or that JM should talk to Pouliot. I'm positive that he has, when you see that JM on the bench goes over to White puts his arms around the kid and talks to him you just gotta have that gut feeling he has had these conversations with Pouliot, or at least it has came from Muller.

I think maybe it has come to the point the coaches are feeling it is falling on deaf ears when it comes to preaching Pouliot on how to play.

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04-20-2011, 04:41 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
People are wondering if, or that JM should talk to Pouliot. I'm positive that he has, when you see that JM on the bench goes over to White puts his arms around the kid and talks to him you just gotta have that gut feeling he has had these conversations with Pouliot, or at least it has came from Muller.

I think maybe it has come to the point the coaches are feeling it is falling on deaf ears when it comes to preaching Pouliot on how to play.
Pouliot has been here for over a year so it seems pretty unlikely that neither JM or Muller has had the notion to talk to him. Some people have a pretty low opinion of our coaching staff.

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04-21-2011, 02:25 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
See, the thing is, Martin does not coach by listening to call-in shows or other ultrashallow media "analysts". He notices who outchances the other teams, who drives the play, and who can handle tough matchups, and doles out icetime accordingly. This is why Gomez was never replaced by media-favorite Desharnais, who l'Antichambre were convinced had suddenly become better than Gomez because he put up points against fourth-liners and on the PP.

(As an aside: if Gomez lost his job or got hurt or whatever, Eller would get a shot at that role way before Desharnais does, no matter what they think on l'Antichambre. Heck, Martin even tried to pit Eller against Krejci in Game 3, whereas Desharnais's line is the most sheltered of all the Habs' forward lines.)

(Another aside: I want to single out the point about Gomez's frequent stupid penalties. A frequent complaint with one small problem: it's factually wrong. This is pure confirmation bias that has no basis in fact. Gomez takes very few penalties. Relative to his icetime, he is one of the most disciplined players in the entire NHL.)

Pouliot can put up some points -- when he's hot, if he's sheltered, and if he's given soft minutes. He does have hands and a good shot, which makes him a perfect guy for someone with hockey sense -- Desharnais, say -- to play off of. But he can't play against top-6 forwards effectively, he's a defensive liability, and he can't drive the play. At this point, he's likely to stay as an utility fourth-liner for his career.

Incidentally... who still thinks that was a good trade?
funny, I seem to recall similar comments (not necessarily by you) in dissecting S.Kost, O'Byrne and D'agostini...

Gomez is a 31 year old veteran, Pouliot is a 24 year old who just played the most games in a season that he ever has at the professional level, I think it would be pretty obvious that Gomez does do many of the "small" things at a more advanced level.

for the season as a whole (if the organization is committed to long-term success/development), Martin's approach of cutting the veteran huge slack (despite dismal production/effectiveness) while holding young players to a huge standard that ignores the importance of playing a role in developing their confidence, is a faulty one imo.

Now in the playoffs, I do agree that it's time to simply play to win. But to my competitive eyes (and I am not a hockey expert, but I do have more than a casual fans experience with elite level team sports), Gomez was not particularly effective through 2 periods and did IN FACT take a very bad penalty out of sheer lazyness/carelessness, and yet actually saw his play time increase as the game wore on.
Pouliot took a bad penalty, but one that came out of trying too hard (as opposed to being lazy), and had, up to that point, been playing with great energy/combativeness, and had actually been more effective than Gomez had been in gaining puck possesion in the offensive zone and putting a dergree of pressure on the B's that Gomez's line simply did not create through 2 periods...

so if the point at this time of the season is to play the guys who are playing the best (as opposed to blindly trusting the name on the back of the jersey), than I'd argue that Martin was mistaken last game... not too mention that his decision likely ensured that Pouliot will be even less effective if/when he hits the ice again (much as Subban was for a week-10 days after his unfounded benching).

Martin has done a lot of things right in this series, but his management of the players ice time/roles in game continues to be very questionable imo.

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Old
04-21-2011, 08:09 AM
  #258
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i thought this was a depreciation thread!

still not willing to give up on him. too ****ing talented to just ship him out like that for almost nothing. patience, patience...


Last edited by MasterDecoy: 04-21-2011 at 08:26 AM.
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Old
04-21-2011, 09:43 AM
  #259
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This is definetly Benny's low point on the Habs. Hard to imagine him getting back in the lineup at this point. I still really like his potential but he's definetly running out of time as witnessed by his play and the way comments about him on this Board have turned.

As many posters have said he needs to become stronger on his skates. He should be dominating the puck battle along the Boards. Chip and chase and get the deep pucks. Stop the fancy stuff in the neutral zone. If he were to start getting more dirty he would be forced to drop some of the cheap chicken **** stuff he seems to do and gain some confidence. He seems to have none now. To me he looks despondent and depressed on the bench.

If he isn't moved in the offseason (probably for little return), training camp will be his final chance IMO.

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Old
04-21-2011, 11:58 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Harry Wong View Post
This is definetly Benny's low point on the Habs. Hard to imagine him getting back in the lineup at this point. I still really like his potential but he's definetly running out of time as witnessed by his play and the way comments about him on this Board have turned.

As many posters have said he needs to become stronger on his skates. He should be dominating the puck battle along the Boards. Chip and chase and get the deep pucks. Stop the fancy stuff in the neutral zone. If he were to start getting more dirty he would be forced to drop some of the cheap chicken **** stuff he seems to do and gain some confidence. He seems to have none now. To me he looks despondent and depressed on the bench.

If he isn't moved in the offseason (probably for little return), training camp will be his final chance IMO.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was traded for another "project" type player...Bergfors Skille Wolski Cogliano etc

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04-21-2011, 12:01 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if he was traded for another "project" type player...Bergfors Skille Wolski Cogliano etc
I would like to get Wolski on the habs.

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Old
04-21-2011, 12:37 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Harry Wong View Post
If he isn't moved in the offseason (probably for little return), training camp will be his final chance IMO.
To replace him with what? Another Halpern? Another Darche?

Pouliot is good and should play. The guy has something others can't offer: a long reach. When he's pinned in the corner he can still get his arms up and pass the puck over to keep a cycle going, whereas other smaller guys simply can't do that. It's the Mario Lemieux advantage, that's one of the reasons his line hasn't been bad in spite of not getting much ice.

Personally I think Darche has been as bad as anybody this series, people are passing the puck right by him, he's been losing all sorts of battles and he's slow, weak and easily nullified.

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Old
04-21-2011, 12:44 PM
  #263
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I would like to get Wolski on the habs.
No thanks. His contract stinks.

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Old
04-21-2011, 01:00 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
funny, I seem to recall similar comments (not necessarily by you) in dissecting S.Kost, O'Byrne and D'agostini...
Trading SKost for nothing was a blatant, stupid mistake. He was a useful NHL player who could already easily handle third-line competition, could help on both special teams, and could do spot duty on the top-6 with upside for more. Then he went on a lucky shooting run which only made the problem look worse (he's going to score less next year, most likely).

O'Byrne did well for a terrible Colorado club, but at the time the Habs traded him, he could not handle tough minutes and I don't think he can now, nor ever will. He'd come back to the Habs and he'd still be the #6 or #7 D-man. Ditto d'Agostini; looks like he's going to make a fine offensive third-line forward and PP specialist, but he's not looking likely to become a top-6er. Putting up points is nice and it is valuable, but the ability to outplay (and, from there, outscore) tough competition is the most valuable skill a player can have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Gomez is a 31 year old veteran, Pouliot is a 24 year old who just played the most games in a season that he ever has at the professional level, I think it would be pretty obvious that Gomez does do many of the "small" things at a more advanced level.
It's not just a matter of experience, a lot of it is plain talent. Gomez was significantly better as a rookie than Pouliot is likely ever going to be.

Pouliot has a lot of flashy-looking technical skills, but his overall hockey talent is proving to not be all that great (in the context of the NHL, mind). He's hardly the first player with flashy offensive skills to be like that, and he won't be the last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
for the season as a whole (if the organization is committed to long-term success/development), Martin's approach of cutting the veteran huge slack (despite dismal production/effectiveness) while holding young players to a huge standard that ignores the importance of playing a role in developing their confidence, is a faulty one imo.
This gets back to what I was saying earlier: Martin's opinion of effectiveness is different from yours or the average radio show caller's. Martin did NOT favor his veterans over youngsters because they were veterans; he favored them because he believed them to be more effective (and rightly so, IMO). He has shown no compunctions about using young players such as Subban and Paciorretty in key roles once he was satisfied they could handle them. He realized Subban had become good enough to carry Gill even as a first pairing, and used him as such even now that the tried and true Hamrlik-Spacek pairing is available to him. He realized Pouliot was a fourth-liner with offensive talent, and used him as such.

He would probably disagree with your assessment of Gomez over the course of the last game, as well. Not least because he understands the importance of matchups. These are vitally important and yet people just keep ignoring them. That's why they end up not understanding the coach's lineup and icetime decisions.

Gomez plays against the likes of Bergeron, while Pouliot spends his time against Kelly and Campbell and Thornton. One is very much not like the other. Swap their roles, and Gomez will obliterate while Bergeron will crush the Desharnais-Pouliot name.

In fact, one of the reasons the Plekanec line is so effective in the series is because Gomez is relieving them from matching up against the Bruins' best center (Bergeron) and gives Plekanec an easier matchup (Krejci) that they've largely dominated so far. And this is where Pouliot, despite impressive scoring numbers, can't contribute. He does not have the defensive ability nor the hockey sense.

Curtailing Gomez's role in favor of the Pouliot-Desharnais line would be nothing short of suicidal.

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04-21-2011, 09:06 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post

Curtailing Gomez's role in favor of the Pouliot-Desharnais line would be nothing short of suicidal.
Gomez -3 tonight, 2 of those goals coming when matched up with the Ryder/Peverly/Kelly line...


and go figure that the Bergeron line has been the best bruin line this series..., they get to play against Gomez.

on the flip side, the Bruins usual top line has been largely silenced matched up vs Pleks...


time to put to rest this ridiculously unfounded notion that Gomez is a quality player to have match up against dangerous opposition... it just isn't true.

He's a mediocre defensive forward, and has become a mediocre offensive player.

DD looked better than he did tonight, as did Eller in the (head-scratching) limited minutes he played. Martin is sticking with Gomez not out of "results", but out of a mistaken belief that it's his best option.

hopefully he figures out that Eller has more to give before this series ends.


on Pouliot, Halpern definitely gave us more tonight, and should stay in the lineup, but moving forward this team will be better with a supported/confident Pouliot, than it will be putting a guy like Pyatt on DD's wing.

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Old
04-21-2011, 09:23 PM
  #266
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I appreciate Pouliot for sitting this game out. There.

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Old
04-21-2011, 09:43 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
I appreciate Pouliot for sitting this game out. There.
It's all part of JM's master plan to win the series. He's trying to make sure Benny the Poo is rested and ready to give 100% in Game 5.

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Old
04-21-2011, 10:08 PM
  #268
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We're 2-1 with Pouliot in, 0-1 with him out

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04-21-2011, 10:27 PM
  #269
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We're 2-1 with Pouliot in, 0-1 with him out
it's the difference between a 54-28 season and a 0-82 one. He's clearly a MVP



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04-22-2011, 12:07 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Gomez -3 tonight, 2 of those goals coming when matched up with the Ryder/Peverly/Kelly line...


and go figure that the Bergeron line has been the best bruin line this series..., they get to play against Gomez.

on the flip side, the Bruins usual top line has been largely silenced matched up vs Pleks...


time to put to rest this ridiculously unfounded notion that Gomez is a quality player to have match up against dangerous opposition... it just isn't true.

He's a mediocre defensive forward, and has become a mediocre offensive player.

DD looked better than he did tonight, as did Eller in the (head-scratching) limited minutes he played. Martin is sticking with Gomez not out of "results", but out of a mistaken belief that it's his best option.

hopefully he figures out that Eller has more to give before this series ends.


on Pouliot, Halpern definitely gave us more tonight, and should stay in the lineup, but moving forward this team will be better with a supported/confident Pouliot, than it will be putting a guy like Pyatt on DD's wing.
Pyatt was miles better than Moen and Darche tonight

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Old
04-22-2011, 01:41 AM
  #271
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Out of all the young guys we've let go recently (SK, Latendresse, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, Grabovski), there's no one I wanted to get rid of, since I believed in all of them. With that said, Pouliot can pack his bags as soon as we're done with this season, as far as I'm concerned. He's awful, doesn't know how to play hockey and will never put it together, imo. Great tools, no toolbox. There isn't anything I like in his game. Just get rid of him.

It seems we're trying to make him into a strong north-south player which he'll never be... He's a weak east-west player who lacks any type of playmaking skill.

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