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ATD 2011 Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-19-2011, 01:52 AM
  #976
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
He's still a top 3 (at least) RW over a 7-season stretch. Why is the gap so huge between him and Iginla, to be honest? Probably because he's 5'7''.
You are right on both fronts, there isn't a huge difference, and the fact that one is under sized and the other is a power forward explains the difference.

He has been top for a while now, but, he ascended in arguably the weakest era for forwards ever and has fallen clearly behind the centers and left wingers as competition has emerged.

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02-19-2011, 02:06 AM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
If you're really ambitious, the stylistic comparison for St. Louis is probably Doug Bentley. Actually, I'm not sure the results are all that different, but then again, I'm pretty ruthless with Bentley's war years. I think it's a good pick, though your first line looks like it will be a touch vulnerable to tough defensive right wingers as almost all of the goal-scoring will go through Stewart.
Well removing his 1943 and 1944 seasons it'd look like (I'll put them in brackets):

Top-10s-
Goals:
Bentley: 6 (1)(1)
St. Louis: 4, 5

Assists:
Bentley: 1, 1, 4,, 5, 9, (5), (9),
St. Louis: 1, 2, 5, 7, 9

Points:
Bentley: 2, 3, 6, 7, (1), (2)
St. Louis: 1, 4, 5, 6

Certainly a good comparison if you don't count the war years much (even their playoff records look comparable, with one big run for each), thugh most will give some value to his great war-year offense.

Likely true, though I'll say that I think Stewart's lines (in his heyday at least) probably suffered from the same thing given they were about getting Stewart the puck to do his thing. Difference here is that there's usually less good defensive RW's than C's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
A good pick, he's rising.

That said, his all-star placements come in arguably the weakest era ever for right wingers.
A hard thing to gauge given that the RW's of this era's careers are not done yet. I'll argue that the era between Bill Cook and Maurice Richard as weaker, however, at least.

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Old
02-19-2011, 02:11 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post

A hard thing to gauge given that the RW's of this era's careers are not done yet. I'll argue that the era between Bill Cook and Maurice Richard as weaker, however, at least.
Fair enough, the fact that I'd have to stop and look up names to find out who the elite players were says a lot. But I think very low of the depression generation. Players who entered the league after 1935 were almost always out of the league by 1946. Toe Blake being one of the few exceptions.

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02-19-2011, 02:12 AM
  #979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
He's still a top 3 (at least) RW over a 7-season stretch. Why is the gap so huge between him and Iginla, to be honest? Probably because he's 5'7''.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
You are right on both fronts, there isn't a huge difference, and the fact that one is under sized and the other is a power forward explains the difference.

He has been top for a while now, but, he ascended in arguably the weakest era for forwards ever and has fallen clearly behind the centers and left wingers as competition has emerged.
There likely shouldn't be. Even with Iginla's power forward game, though handy, St. Louis does have the added defensive game. It might also have to do with St. Louis being much more a playmaker, which most centre's are.

Again, hard to gauge how this era will stand until more time passes. Maybe there isn't the same top-end competition, but there's certainly a lot more depth than in a number of other era's. I think he'd held his own pretty well, particularly the past couple of seasons.

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Old
02-19-2011, 02:17 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Again, hard to gauge how this era will stand until more time passes. Maybe there isn't the same top-end competition, but there's certainly a lot more depth than in a number of other era's. I think he'd held his own pretty well, particularly the past couple of seasons.
I think it goes without saying that modern eras are deeper than older eras. That said, in most eras a top left winger is at least equal to the 3rd or 4th center. Where as now, I just can't see it. If all-star teams didn't position bias, there would be years with no RWs.

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Old
02-19-2011, 02:39 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Boucher's six years younger! What kind of fair comparison is that?
As longevity is basically the beginning and end of your argument in favor of Cleghorn (which is apt, because peak value is extremely debatable), it is perfectly fair.

Quote:
then he had two seasons in the NHL as a forward, or primarily a forward, or as a utility guy: 18 19
Boucher seems to have spent more time filling in for Cleghorn and Gerard than anything else, and a good chunk of the time he spent at forward was as Ottawa's "third defenseman" at center ice. There are only scant mentions of Boucher playing wing, though he did do so on occasion.

Quote:
There's no hyperbole about it. It's two guys who have similar offensive values at their very best, but one guy did it for a lot longer.

For Christ's sake, this wasn't meant to be an intensive study at all, and I have no interest in either player at this time, but it should be common sense that a guy who was an elite offensive defenseman (lets say top-3 in a pre-merger league) in nine seasons, has a better offensive case than a guy who did it for five.
Perhaps you are right. Boucher's peak offense is every bit as good as Cleghorn's was, but his peak as a defenseman was shorter. Of course, you are completely negating the value of Boucher's first four years, but do as you see fit. Actually, I have a nice piece of information on what probably ended Boucher's peak and also where the old saw about his skating problems may have come from. It's just a game report from the Ottawa Citizen - February 4th, 1924:

Quote:
Boucher went out of commission in the second period, the result of a collision with Sprague Cleghorn. There was no blame attached to the latter, it appearing to be purely an accident but Boucher's knee was badly wrenched and he was unable to return to the game.
It is only after this point that one starts to see references to Boucher's "bad leg", and he would only have one more peak offensive season before slowing down and playing a more stay at home game to round out his career.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-19-2011 at 03:28 AM.
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02-19-2011, 06:17 AM
  #982
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Damn you for taking Bernie Federko He is one of the guys I have ahead of Mike Modano.

Federko is a fantastic playmaker, and he'll make his wingers better. He led his team in scoring like 10 times, and he's a beast in the play-offs.

Again.... damn you!

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Old
02-19-2011, 06:56 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
C Frank McGee



Hockey Hall of Fame Member
3x Stanley Cup Champion(consecutive, 4x participant)
135 goals in 45 career regular season and cup games
63 goals in 22 career playoff games
4x 1st in Goal Scoring in Cup Challenge Playoffs(only played in 4)



http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...io&list=#photo



http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...io&list=#photo



-Trail of the Stanley Cup



-Honored Members



-Montreal Herald, 1906



-THN's Century of Hockey



-NHL.com



-Toronto Globe



-Trail of the Stanley Cup

Scoring leaders of all Cup Games in Pre-Consolodation Era(1893-1926):

1. Frank McGee - 63
2. Frank Foyston 37
3. ***** 36
4. ***** ******* - 31
5. Newsy Lalonde 27
6. ***** ******** - 26
7. ***** ***** - 25
8. Ernie Johnson - 23
8. Joe Malone - 23
8. ***** ***** - 23
11. Tom Phillips 22



-Trails of the Stanley Cup



-loh.net
Awesome Bio for Mcgee

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Old
02-19-2011, 07:38 AM
  #984
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Hatcher woulda been my pick at 300. Nice selection.

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Old
02-19-2011, 07:50 AM
  #985
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16 picks, want 3 players, getting scooped for sure.

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Old
02-19-2011, 07:59 AM
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Scoring leaders of all Cup Games in Pre-Consolodation Era(1893-1926):

1. Frank McGee - 63
2. Frank Foyston 37
3. ***** 36
4. ***** ******* - 31
5. Newsy Lalonde 27
6. ***** ******** - 26
7. ***** ***** - 25
8. Ernie Johnson - 23
8. Joe Malone - 23
8. ***** ***** - 23
11. Tom Phillips 22

-Trails of the Stanley Cup
No offense, but this is among the silliest uses of statistics I've ever seen in the ATD. There's no doubt that McGee was dominant for his very short career, but using the raw numbers from those early Cup Challenge games is kind of crazy.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-19-2011 at 09:34 AM.
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Old
02-19-2011, 08:38 AM
  #987
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
People should really stop pronouncing Lemieux: ''le-me-you''

I thought being one of the top 4 player of all-time and already being retired should be enough to make people pronounce your name correctly , how wrong was I.
lol take it easy, son. I'm from Quebec also - I know how to pronounce it

Just made more sense in the pun to pronounce it the Anglo way

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Old
02-19-2011, 09:27 AM
  #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
He's still a top 3 (at least) RW over a 7-season stretch. Why is the gap so huge between him and Iginla, to be honest? Probably because he's 5'7''.
Goal scoring is probably a factor. And Iginla's ability to do it alone.

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Old
02-19-2011, 09:59 AM
  #989
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BS's clock has been over for over an hour, I'll notify the next on board.

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Old
02-19-2011, 10:01 AM
  #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Goal scoring is probably a factor. And Iginla's ability to do it alone.
Iginla? Do it alone? LAWL!

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02-19-2011, 10:03 AM
  #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Iginla? Do it alone? LAWL!
You are a truly poignant scholar

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Old
02-19-2011, 10:13 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
You are a truly poignant scholar
Earlier in his career, Iginla was a great player, getting dirty to get his goals, but in recent years he's become more of a perimeter player, and because there isn't any really good playmaking talent on his team, his goal totals have suffered.

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Old
02-19-2011, 10:15 AM
  #993
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He's slowed down because of his age. He never had a great playmaker in the first place. In his prime he was the best in the league at creating chances and scoring goals single-handily.

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02-19-2011, 10:16 AM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
He's slowed down because of his age. He never had a great playmaker in the first place.
That's my point, though. BECAUSE he never had a great playmaker, he had to get down and dirty to get his goals. This fact is being exposed in recent years where he's become a perimeter player.

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Old
02-19-2011, 10:18 AM
  #995
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How has that good thing about him caused him to be "exposed" and how does his being "exposed" now prove he never did it alone?

He did do it alone in his prime and in an ATD that's what's relevant. Even scoring 30+ now without any help is impressive. Yet you said "LAWL" like I was saying something ridiculous.

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02-19-2011, 10:58 AM
  #996
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
No offense, but this is among the silliest uses of statistics I've ever seen in the ATD. There's no doubt that McGee was dominant for his very short career, but using the raw numbers from those early Cup Challenge games is kind of crazy.
I had a feeling someone would say that. How about goal scoring in competitive Cup Challenge games?

1. Frank Foyston - 27
1. Newsy Lalonde - 27
3. Tom Phillips - 22
4. Frank McGee 21
5. ***** ******* - 18
6. *** ***** 15
7. Joe Malone - 14
8. ***** ***** - 13
9. Ernie Johnson - 11
10. ****** ******** - 9
11. ***** ***** - 4

I'll be making my pick shortly, got the short end of the stick in terms of time being on the clock.

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Old
02-19-2011, 11:03 AM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
If you're really ambitious, the stylistic comparison for St. Louis is probably Doug Bentley. Actually, I'm not sure the results are all that different, but then again, I'm pretty ruthless with Bentley's war years. I think it's a good pick, though your first line looks like it will be a touch vulnerable to tough defensive right wingers as almost all of the goal-scoring will go through Stewart.
I like the St Louis - Bentley comparison for style. As Bentley's owner this draft, you may be too hard on his war years. He had very good seasons before and after the war.

Bentley was also a more versatile player than St Louis. He played both LW and C at a high level. He could be either the primary goal scorer or the primary playmaker on his line, and led the league in goals and assists in separate seasons. That's why he's a good fit with Jagr, IMO.

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02-19-2011, 11:18 AM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
How has that good thing about him caused him to be "exposed" and how does his being "exposed" now prove he never did it alone?

He did do it alone in his prime and in an ATD that's what's relevant. Even scoring 30+ now without any help is impressive. Yet you said "LAWL" like I was saying something ridiculous.
If you read my post closely, you would have seen that i mentioned "earlier in his career".. which is true, earlier in his career, he WAS that power forward guy that played hard everywhere on the ice and worked hard for his goals. He doesn't really do that anymore to my knowledge. His goal totals this year have improved, but ********* has also improved.. not a coincidence in my mind. Goal scorers that aren't willing to sacrifice themselves to score them need a playmaker to help them out. Very few exceptions to this.

My whole point was that Iginla being a perimeter player of recent years is being exposed due to lack of a solid playmaker.

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Old
02-19-2011, 11:21 AM
  #999
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Earlier in his career, Iginla was a great player, getting dirty to get his goals, but in recent years he's become more of a perimeter player, and because there isn't any really good playmaking talent on his team, his goal totals have suffered.
In recent years he is also older.

Not to mention his team is worse around him.

How many power forwards (even the light version we have these days) have been 50 goal scorers after the age of 30?

I don't know off hand but I'm guessing the list is pretty damn short.

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Old
02-19-2011, 11:31 AM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
In recent years he is also older.

Not to mention his team is worse around him.

How many power forwards (even the light version we have these days) have been 50 goal scorers after the age of 30?

I don't know off hand but I'm guessing the list is pretty damn short.
Iginla has a ton of talent, and I think with the right playmaker he can be a 40 goal scorer again. His talent hasn't left him.. just his play style.

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