HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Dishing the Dirt

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-05-2012, 01:48 AM
  #276
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I also want to see the difference between the Dan Bain/Mike Grant generation and the Bowie/Phillips generation. I'm not ready to write off the late 1890s as "primitive" like Sturm seems to be. I realize the 1887 Winter Carnival is pretty questionable from a competitive standpoint, but the Cup was first awarded in 1892 and the HHOF has seen fit to honor some players from the late 1890s
Bowie's generation was likely the first one that spent any time playing organized hockey as children, and they probably began in high school. Earlier generations seemed to coalesce around university-level teams like the one at McGill University, which is not surprising as hockey was brand new as an organized sport and universities are often the purveyors of what's new.

Hockey doesn't seem to have moved indoors regularly until the forming of the CAHL. Before that, it was played strictly outdoors with sticks for goalposts (the referee had to estimate the height of an imaginary crossbar on high shots), there were obviously no boards and there was no standard rink size. Pucks were often made out of rubber balls cut in half. It was literally pond hockey. I got it wrong on Bowie's generation earlier; his was the first that competed in indoor arenas. So yeah...I think calling everything before the formation of the CAHL "primitive" is right on.

The CAHL, itself, and the ECAHA that followed it were still definitely hockey in its embryonic state. The seven man game out east went by the wayside as soon as the NHA was formed (just after the end of Bowie's career). It would be another decade after Bowie's retirement before the second round of major rules changes was implemented - specifically power plays, the existence of zones on the ice (bluelines and offsides), and forward passing in the neutral zone. What Bowie played wasn't exactly pond hockey, but it was something much more akin to rugby on skates than what we would recognize as hockey today.

The Nighbor generation grew up in a time when hockey was already a very popular sport in Canada, and spent the greater part of their careers playing under a rules system which differed from modern rules only in that it wasn't until 1927 that forward passing was allowed in all zones. The differences between the generations in terms of talent pool and how the sport was played appear very large, yes.


Last edited by Sturminator: 04-05-2012 at 04:20 AM.
Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2012, 01:49 AM
  #277
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Do you have any Canadian ties, Sturm, or are you coming at this as an outsider to Canada?
Sadly, no. If I understood Canadian history/population growth patterns as well as I understand them for America, I would probably have more to say on the subject.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-05-2012, 02:56 AM
  #278
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
I have found an excellent article which summarizes all of the major league reorganizations and rules changes in the NHL from its inception through the second world war.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...C+hockey&hl=en

The only thing Mr Vaughan misses here is the implementation of the powerplay system for penalties, which happened in the PCHA before the 1918-19 season and in the NHL before the 1920-21 season. Another document in this thread (page 8) covers this rules change.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-25-2012, 06:18 PM
  #279
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
I don't know how to link to a direct page, but this is a link to a book published in 1946 that contains a 1935 essay by Howie Morenz. Morenz's article starts on page 44.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wIZ...efense&f=false

Morenz REALLY liked Charlie Gardiner, but he talks about other players, as well as hockey in general. Morenz wrote it about 2 years before he died.

First time I've ever seen Ching Johnson described as "agile."

Also a good description of the fastest players of the time:

Quote:
And while I'm on the subject of outstanding men, I might add that Harvey Jackson of Toronto is probably the best and fastest wing in the game. About the only way to stop Harvey is the close down the rink. Jimmy Ward of the Montreal Maroons is another player who scorches the ice. The same is true of King Clancy of the Toronto Maple Leafs and young Mush March of our Chicago Blackhawks, who also owns blistering speed; the boy is a fine competitor, too.
At the end is an interesting account of hockey culture in Montreal at the time.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-25-2012 at 07:06 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 12:10 AM
  #280
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't know how to link to a direct page, but this is a link to a book published in 1946 that contains a 1935 essay by Howie Morenz. Morenz's article starts on page 44.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wIZ...efense&f=false

Morenz REALLY liked Charlie Gardiner, but he talks about other players, as well as hockey in general. Morenz wrote it about 2 years before he died.

First time I've ever seen Ching Johnson described as "agile."

Also a good description of the fastest players of the time:



At the end is an interesting account of hockey culture in Montreal at the time.
Good find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie Morenz, 1935
The toughest defense men I've encountered are Eddie Shore of Boston and Ching Johnson of the New York Rangers.
I read this as "toughest to beat". That's a point in favour of Shore's defensive play.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 03:25 PM
  #281
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
Tommy Gorman lists his all-time team (in December of 1928):

Quote:
Roy Worters, goalie
Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn, defense
Frank McGee, center
Tom Phillips and Scotty Davidson, wings
Cyclone Fred Taylor, utility, greatest player ever.
Quote:
Gorman appends a short list of honorable mentions: Newsey Lalonde, Lionel Conacher, Billy Burch and Les Patrick.
The New York Sun, Dec 22, 1928 (warning, long PDF)

Article contains a long description of Cyclone Taylor and shorter ones of the other guys Gorman picked.

First time I've ever seen Roy Worters on one of these lists, though note that Gorman picked this list in the middle of his Hart-winning season.

Hod Stuart and Sprague Cleghorn always seem to be the defensemen on these lists, and Tommy Phillips is one of the wingers as is common. The winger next to Phillips seems to be different on every one of these lists.

Not the first list I've seen with McGee as the top center, but there is definitely a wide range of opinion there.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 03:43 PM
  #282
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
"Proficiency in Baseball Chas. Gardiner's Reason For Success as a Goalie"

Quote:
IF I AM a good goalie, then it's because I am fairly proficient at baseball for one thing, and then again, I am Scotch and will give nothing up, not even a single goal, without a fight."

When Hugh Lehmann heard Charles Gardiner's "If I am a good goalie," he laughed and added: Chuck is kidding with the boys. But just wait a couple of years—and then!"

"Is he a good goalie?" piped up Duke Keats. "WhoopeeI I'll say he Is in real Indian fashion. Whoopee, again!"

Baseball has aided Chuck Gardiner in tending the Chicago nets a great deal. Roy Worters uses his stick' mostly in clearing; Hainsworth of Les Canadiens flicks the shots off his chest; Lome Chabot of the Rangers kicksvthe puck away, but Gardiner uses the American style. He catches the puck a la "Shoeless Joe" Jackson.

With one hand he steadies his stick and with the other he makes stab catches in true baseball style. He is a puckhawk, developed in this department from ball hawking in the summer time in the wild and not so woolly west of Canada.
The Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Feb 27, 1928 (large pdf)

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #283
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
Americans ask for changes in Hockey Rules Which would be More Productive of More Scoring, New York Evening Post, Jan 9, 1929

The Americans management actually wanted to ban the forward pass entirely to discourage players from "loafing" up ice, requiring teams to send a guy to cover the player loafing, and making it harder to have "three man attacks."

Quote:
"What -we would like to witness Is
elimination of the forward pass
altogether. Make the players pass the
' '"• puck straight across the ice or make
s,>them skate their men onside. In this
.iWay you would do away with all the
l ia -loafing and would encourage three
I i*Tnan rushes, as they had before the
| ^forward pass was legalized. It would
5 : . . be conducive to more skating and
-T^~more combination. -
g-ggg*; "In the old days in Canada they
had many high-scoring games. It was
not unusual to have an 8-6, 6—5'or 5 -4
game. There were practically no lowscoring
games until the rules were
tinkered with and this offside loafing
allowed. It compels all clubs to play
defensive hockey.
The NHL, of course, went the other way and liberalized the forward pass even more.

Golden Harvest Appears Ripe for Hockey Moguls with New Rules Speeding Up Game, New York Evening Post, Nov 14, 1929

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 12:47 PM
  #284
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,511
vCash: 500
Comments on the all-star players of 1927-28 from the New York Evening Post - the Saturday, March 24, 1928 edition (pdf).

Quote:
Voted the best goalie by the managers in 1926-27, Roy Waters (sic) again outclassed his rival net-minders. Alex Connell and Hal Winkler had better records in respect to the number of times they whitewashed opposing teams, but those excellent goalies had much sturdier back line duos helping them. Worters is cool, agile, a quick man on his skates, and a highly capable man at clearing enemy shots. Connell, placed on the second team, was a greatly-improved goalie this season and gets my choice for the second all-choice.

In front of Worters are placed Eddie Shore of Boston and Ivan "Ching" Johnson of the New York Rangers. Shore, dubbed by Jack Filman the "Fort Queppell Fury", is a defense star who knows the art of checking, who can skate with the fastest of rival wings, who can carry the puck about as well as any other man in the game today, who can shoot as well as any sharpshooter, and who can back-skate, once he has lost the puck, in time to resume his post in his own territory.

Alongside of this Boston Bruin is "Smiling Ching" Johnson, one of his deadliest rivals and foes during the competitive season.

Strong, powerful, a real iron man, a fast albeit clumsy skater, daring, a hard shot, a great team man, who can co-operate with his mates or do a solo starring act, according to the demands of the game, Johnson has been the main cog of the New York contenders.

When Taffy Abel was disabled and Leo Bourgault, a sub last winter, was overnight compelled to become a regular, "Ching" was the main bulwark of the Rangers' defense. When his forwards slumped, Johnson became the scoring threat of the Patrickmen. You can't leave him off.

Who else but Howie Morenz could possibly stand at center ice? From all sides the echo answers, "Nobody".

On Morenz's right is Hooley Smith, Montreal Maroons stalwart. Though playing center after Eddie Gerard shook up his line up, Smith, christened Reginald J., is really a right winger and there he is on the all-star six.

In the other alley you'll find George Hay, the "big point man" of the Detroit Cougars. Speedy, smart, alert, the black-haired Cougar led all the other left wingers of the year.

In front of Connell you have Frank Clancy of Ottawa and Herb Gardiner of Les Canadiens. Clancy was not as sensational as he was last year. Injuries robbed the King of some of his effectiveness, but the managers of the circuit will tell you that Clancy is still as good as any of them.

A vote of merit also must be given to Reg Noble of Detroit, whose work has been the big reason that Detroit, a last place team in 1926-27, was a playoff contender from the beginning of this campaign. Also prominent among the defense players were Happy Day of Toronto, Lionel Hitchman of Boston, Babe Siebert of Montreal, Leo Bourgault of the Rangers, and Leo Reise of the Americans.

Center on the second team is Frank Boucher of the New York Rangers. A poke checker of uncanny ability, a great team player, a deadly shot, Boucher, next to Johnson, was the outstanding member of the Patrick troupe. We have picked him over such brilliant centers as Frank Nighbor of Ottawa, Frank Frederickson of Boston, Carson of Toronto, Hib Milks of Pittsburgh, and Normie Himes of the Americans, the latter one of the brightest stars of the second half of the campaign.

Covering the wings are Bill Cook of the Rangers and Aurel Joliat of Les Canadiens. Bill Cook was the manager's choice last year and again this winter. But the Ranger captain was far from being the bright star he was during the 1926-27 campaign and we placed him behind Hooley Smith.

Joliat, as fast as any wing in the league, a sharpshooter and all-around top-notcher, has only his temperament to blame for the fact that he does not rate a position on the first team. Other star wings were Nels Stewart of Montreal, Harry Oliver of Boston, Hec Kilrea and Frank Finnegan of Ottawa, Bun Cook of the Rangers, Alec McKinnon of the Americans and Jimmy Ward of Montreal.
The 10 managers of the league differed from the Evening Post on a few points. At RW, they placed Bill Cook on the first team and Harry Oliver on the second team, with Hooley Smith missing the cut. They had George Hainsworth ahead of Alec Connell for the 2nd goalie spot. And Frank Nighbor and Hec Kilrea should really have made the second team based on the managers voting, but the voting system was a mess.

I think the comments on Worters, Shore, and Johnson are particularly interesting. We could guess this already, but it explicitly states that Worters was working behind a weak defense. It gives some praise for Shore's (early career) defensive game, and praise for Johnson's offensive game (in his career-best offensive season) as well.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-15-2012, 01:05 PM
  #285
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
Also, a clarification of Ching Johnson's skating - he was fast but clumsy (looking?), which backs up Howie Morenz's statement that Ching was "agile," contrary to LOH's claim that he was "slow-footed."

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2012, 12:22 AM
  #286
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,141
vCash: 500
Henri Richard already has a pretty extensive bio, but here's a little more on him. The part that most interested me is when they give him credit for turning the series around in the 1973 Playoff Semi-Finals against Philly.

Montreal Gazette, Sep. 11, 1979

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2012, 05:43 PM
  #287
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My version that he reversed had several paragraphs on the early history of the Vezina, all cited from newspaper articles. He obviously didn't read it, because he sent me a message that "LOH and HHOF are wrong" because a single article he has (and based the entire Wikipedia article around previously) says so.

Vecens had previously listed numerous articles in the "talk section" for the article indicating otherwise too

Anyway, we should probably take this to the dishing the dirt or chat thread
I just read that whole page. I see that you guys may have come to some sort of understanding. I don't know how much better you could have explained it, in the end. However, the first paragraph is still incorrect, isn't it? It seems the next part really outlines the "differences of opinion" regarding the criteria (I don't see it as a difference of opinion - you were right and he was wrong)

I like how the revision page is called "Vezina Trophy - Revision History"...

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-25-2012, 07:26 PM
  #288
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 37,809
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I just read that whole page. I see that you guys may have come to some sort of understanding. I don't know how much better you could have explained it, in the end. However, the first paragraph is still incorrect, isn't it? It seems the next part really outlines the "differences of opinion" regarding the criteria (I don't see it as a difference of opinion - you were right and he was wrong)

I like how the revision page is called "Vezina Trophy - Revision History"...
He restored most of my changes after a bit of discussion and I skimmed through the article and it seemed mostly okay. I haven't had time to really look at it in detail.

He did take the time to find a second article from 1946 (Globe and Mail which I don't have an account to read) than indicates something happened in 1946.

As I said in the comments in the "talk" section, it seems likely that in 1946 the NHL finally made the criteria official that they were using all along


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 06-25-2012 at 07:33 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 09:30 PM
  #289
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
I'm just dumping this in the dirt thread because I think it's applicable here as I just stumbled across it while researching Valeri Kamensky. This comes from Ken Rapaport of the Daily News on February 15, 1987.

Quote:
"I'm a little biased on Krutov," said Edmonton's Wayne Gretzky. "I've always felt he was their best player. I've always said that. When they play here, he dominates."
That is pretty surprising and incredible praise about Vladimir Krutov from a pretty well respected source.

vecens24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 09:31 PM
  #290
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I'm just dumping this in the dirt thread because I think it's applicable here as I just stumbled across it while researching Valeri Kamensky. This comes from Ken Rapaport of the Daily News on February 15, 1987.



That is pretty surprising and incredible praise about Vladimir Krutov from a pretty well respected source.
I don't want to demean this (or attempt to) but does Gretzky have a very good track record of such praise? Doesn't he have some rather questionable assessments in his past?

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 09:39 PM
  #291
vecens24
Registered User
 
vecens24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 5,002
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I don't want to demean this (or attempt to) but does Gretzky have a very good track record of such praise? Doesn't he have some rather questionable assessments in his past?
Lol well if his coaching history is any sort of barometer, then yeah I'd say for sure he has some questionable assessments.

It's still the greatest player ever who played against Krutov multiple times saying that he thought Krutov was the best player on their team. I really have no horse in a Krutov-pimping battle, I just found it extremely interesting.

vecens24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 09:47 PM
  #292
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
It's just one guy's opinion. I think most people would say Makarov was better, but the fact that some people choose Krutov just shows how good he was.

Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2012, 10:01 PM
  #293
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,985
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Lol well if his coaching history is any sort of barometer, then yeah I'd say for sure he has some questionable assessments.

It's still the greatest player ever who played against Krutov multiple times saying that he thought Krutov was the best player on their team. I really have no horse in a Krutov-pimping battle, I just found it extremely interesting.
Yeah, I don't have a dog in the...horse...race...whatever...

Maybe I'm a little fuzzy, but didn't Gretzky call Ales Hemsky a "top 5 player in the game" a few years ago, Peter Forsberg a "top 5 player of all time" and Vitaly Yachmenev a "future 40-goal scorer" in the C&G Era...?

While researching my pick in the MLD, I saw that Lester Patrick called Cyclone Taylor the greatest player of all-time in 1934...meaning that he saw Howie Morenz in his prime (coached him briefly, no?) and believed Taylor was the best. I'm not sure if the well-respected Patrick was suffering from geographic bias or not though...

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 09:17 AM
  #294
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, I don't have a dog in the...horse...race...whatever...

Maybe I'm a little fuzzy, but didn't Gretzky call Ales Hemsky a "top 5 player in the game" a few years ago, Peter Forsberg a "top 5 player of all time" and Vitaly Yachmenev a "future 40-goal scorer" in the C&G Era...?

While researching my pick in the MLD, I saw that Lester Patrick called Cyclone Taylor the greatest player of all-time in 1934...meaning that he saw Howie Morenz in his prime (coached him briefly, no?) and believed Taylor was the best. I'm not sure if the well-respected Patrick was suffering from geographic bias or not though...
He wasn't far off on Yashmenev but as the dead puck era grew deeper and Vitalis injuries it just didnt happen. He did have the potential though back problems limited him.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 10:15 AM
  #295
seventieslord
Registered User
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,558
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yeah, I don't have a dog in the...horse...race...whatever...

Maybe I'm a little fuzzy, but didn't Gretzky call Ales Hemsky a "top 5 player in the game" a few years ago, Peter Forsberg a "top 5 player of all time" and Vitaly Yachmenev a "future 40-goal scorer" in the C&G Era...?

While researching my pick in the MLD, I saw that Lester Patrick called Cyclone Taylor the greatest player of all-time in 1934...meaning that he saw Howie Morenz in his prime (coached him briefly, no?) and believed Taylor was the best. I'm not sure if the well-respected Patrick was suffering from geographic bias or not though...
It's definitely arguable that Cyclone Taylor was more dominant of his era, than Morenz was of his, and that the only reason Morenz is universally ranked higher is because his era is considered a step up even though their primes are only a few years from overlapping.

Not that this is all that relevant...

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 12:21 PM
  #296
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,511
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
While researching my pick in the MLD, I saw that Lester Patrick called Cyclone Taylor the greatest player of all-time in 1934...meaning that he saw Howie Morenz in his prime (coached him briefly, no?) and believed Taylor was the best. I'm not sure if the well-respected Patrick was suffering from geographic bias or not though...
Jim Hendy argued that Taylor was better than Morenz in one of his statistical publications back in 1934, when he published Taylor's PCHA stats for the first time.

It was just based on Taylor being more statistically dominant, similar to what any of us could argue in 2012.

Most others who argued for Taylor as the greatest played or coached hockey on the Coast. Which makes sense, because they wouldn't have seen much of Taylor at his best otherwise. In those days of the West/East split most people would mostly see either the Western players or the Eastern players so it's a fine line between geographic bias and sticking to what you know.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 01:27 PM
  #297
Dreakmur
Registered User
 
Dreakmur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orillia, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,773
vCash: 500
In my research of Paddy Moran for this MLD, I came across a few articles that were all done by the same author and under the same name. Did a little more searching, and found out that the guy wrote a whole bunch of them. The author was D.A.L. MacDonald, and hs column was named "Turning Back Hockey's Pages". Most of the usual suspcts are covered, but some very obscure players were covered a well.

I'm sure there are more that I haven't found, so if anybody does find them, please send me a link!

Here is the list of players I have found....

Clint Benedict: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
George Boucher: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Russell "Dubbie" Bowie: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jack Brennnan: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harry "Punch" Broadbent: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Odie Cleghorn: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Sprague Cleghorn: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Cam Davidson: http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=...davidson&hl=en
Cy Denneny: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jimmy Gardner: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Frank "Pud" Glass: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Mike Grant: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Wilfred "Shorty" Green: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Joe Hall: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Riley Hern: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hockey&hl=en
Archie Hooper: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harry Hyland: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Ernie "Moose" Johnson: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Eduoard "Newsy" Lalonde: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Joe Malone: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jack Marshall: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Percival Molson: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Paddy Moran: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harvey Pulford: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Gordon Roberts: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Art Ross: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Blair Russel: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hockey&hl=en
Fred "Cyclone" Taylor: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Georges Vezina: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en


Last edited by Dreakmur: 07-19-2012 at 01:35 PM.
Dreakmur is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2012, 02:23 PM
  #298
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,511
vCash: 500
I've read a few of his articles. Ultimate Hockey referenced him as a good source. It's interesting because he was doing archive research, and now often you can pull up the archived articles he references together with his articles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
In my research of Paddy Moran for this MLD, I came across a few articles that were all done by the same author and under the same name. Did a little more searching, and found out that the guy wrote a whole bunch of them. The author was D.A.L. MacDonald, and hs column was named "Turning Back Hockey's Pages". Most of the usual suspcts are covered, but some very obscure players were covered a well.

I'm sure there are more that I haven't found, so if anybody does find them, please send me a link!

Here is the list of players I have found....

Clint Benedict: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
George Boucher: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Russell "Dubbie" Bowie: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jack Brennnan: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harry "Punch" Broadbent: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Odie Cleghorn: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Sprague Cleghorn: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Cam Davidson: http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=...davidson&hl=en
Cy Denneny: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jimmy Gardner: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Frank "Pud" Glass: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Mike Grant: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Wilfred "Shorty" Green: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Joe Hall: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Riley Hern: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hockey&hl=en
Archie Hooper: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harry Hyland: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Ernie "Moose" Johnson: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Eduoard "Newsy" Lalonde: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Joe Malone: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Jack Marshall: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Percival Molson: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Paddy Moran: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Harvey Pulford: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Gordon Roberts: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Art Ross: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Blair Russel: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hockey&hl=en
Fred "Cyclone" Taylor: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en
Georges Vezina: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...;s+pages&hl=en

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #299
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,511
vCash: 500
Border Cities Star, April 13, 1934: "Forechecking" Becomes Latest Hockey Style: Tommy Gorman Discusses Success of System

Quote:
Forechecking, a new development in professional hockey, won the Stanley Cup and world championship for Chicago, Tommy Gorman, manager of the victorious Black Hawks, explained today before leaving for his Ottawa home. Gorman told about the system he believes will be generally used by National League teams next season.

The Hawks, he said, used a revolutionary Idea for the last six weeks of the season and in downing Montreal Canadiens, Maroons and Detroit Red Wings in the playoffs. Perhaps it explains why the Hawks had more shots on goal than their foes and yet played near-perfect defensive hockey.

True, our backchecking was great,” said Gorman, but it was our fore-checking that downed all our rivals. About five weeks ago, just prior to playing the Rangers in New York, we conceived the idea of bottling up the opposing forwards—not letting them out of their own zone.

“We studied and developed a system which consisted of the centre and wings going right down into their opponents’ territory while our defense-men moved over our own blue line. Canadiens gave us more trouble than any of the other clubs because of the terrific speed of Morenz and the great stickhandling of Joliat and Gagnon.

“In Montreal, in the first game of our series against Maroons, Johnny Gottselig scored the first goal for us in less than a minute when he dashed in and stole the puck off the goaltender’s pads. We carded the play right to them and scored in 40 seconds.

“In the third period, when they expected us to lay back, having obtained a lead of one goal, we again gave Maroons the works and scored twice in less than two minutes. When Maroons returned here we tallied the opening goal in 25 seconds. Against Detroit we carried out the same system with equal success. We scored on them in 28 seconds in last Sunday’s battle here and would have made it three straight if Chuck Gardiner had been himself.

“Jack Adams was the first of the opposing managers to see through our new system. He tried to beat it by having the defensemen trap the puck and then whip it over to their forwards at the blue line. In Sunday’s game it looked as though Jack had us bewildered, but our forwards kept on going in and the Red Wings could never get organized.

“The forechecking of the Black Hawks in Tuesday’s game won the championship. Weiland, Lewis, Aurie, and other Detroit forwards were completely baffled. Lewis became so disgusted on one occasion that he golfed the puck down the ice. Goodfellow could never get going as MacFayden followed in like a leech and kept poking the puck off his stick.

“It was necessary to change our attack every minute or so, but all three lines stood up wonderfully well. In each playoff series we steam-rollered our opponents and wore them down. Instead of backing out of the enemy zone, the Black Hawks kept charging in. The system worked much better than we expected.

“Here are examples of what our prowling forwards did in close. Thompson’s winning goal in the first overtime game at Detroit was scored after Romnes had poked the puck off Teddy Graham’s stick. In the instance of March’s winning goal here, ourdefensemen moved up and refused to let Detroit get the puck out of their own territory.

“Conacher finally trapped it behind the Red Wings’ net and then March held it against the boards. Both Coulter and Conacher moved up and when Romnes drew the puck from Weiland, he had three men to pass to. Goodfellow was off at the time and March was uncovered. Then followed his winning shot.”

Gorman, who built the Hawks into a championship club in one season, said he expected every club in the N.H.L. would employ some variation of forechecking next season. “They will have to,” he said, “just as they had to follow suit when Major McLaughlin, owner of the Hawks, introduced his three forward lines four years ago.”
Notice that Gorman himself is the source for this. It's interesting, but also very possible that he's exaggerating his contribution.

Gorman dates the start of the system back 5-6 weeks, or roughly the start of March. From the beginning of the season to the end of February, the Hawks averaged 1.80 GF/G and 1.54 GA/G. From March 1 through the end of the playoffs, they average 2.20 GF/G and 2.13 GA/G. So the numbers show a higher scoring style of play at the end of the season.

In the Stanley Cup final, Detroit moved Ebbie Goodfellow back to right defence in game 3, after he was the second line centre in games 1 and 2. Detroit won Game 3 5-2 and lost Game 4 1-0 with Goodfellow on the blueline, after scoring 2 goals in the first two games. Maybe Goodfellow's speed and skill helped to beat the Chicago forecheck?

If Gorman was right about forechecking becoming a more popular style, I wonder if that was a reason that several high scoring forwards were moved to play defence during the 1930s - their skill was needed in the puck-moving defenceman role, to beat the forecheck and establish the transition game.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2012, 04:24 PM
  #300
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Moron!
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 4,985
vCash: 500
Is this of interest or previously unknown? It seems that exact figures are generally unknown for this type of thing, but I thought this was rather fascinating:

The Toronto World - Apr. 3, 1916

"Stanley Cup Players Receive Little Money"

Quote:
The amounts received by the players of both teams were disappointingly small and show that there was a lack of itnerest in hockey this season even with the historic Stanley Cup as the drawing card.
Quote:
The Saturday night game drew the largest attendance. The receipts amounting to $4550. All of the others were far below this amount, the fifth game being about the smallest of the lot.
Quote:
Eleven players shared the winners' end, while only nine shared the losers', and one of the nine, Ernie Johnson, will not receive anything, as his share was attached by Owner Lichtenhein of the Wanderers to satisfy a judgment he held against the big defence players.
Quote:
The following is the estimated amount received by those interested in the Stanley Cup series and the amount taken in gate receipts. The first three games in which the players shared amount to $11,504, while the fourth and fifth games in which the clubs shared were not as large:

First game - $3,024
Second game - $3,930
Third game - $4,550
----------------------
Total receipts - $11,504
Arena's share - $3,834
Expenses - $2,500
Officials - $200
Winners' share - $238
Losers' share - $207
League's Share - $555

Final gates netted the owners of the competing clubs about $1500 each, while the Arena added about the same amount to their total from the first three games, making their total for the five games about $5000.

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.