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Old
02-18-2014, 04:22 AM
  #401
Sturminator
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Brimsek vs. Durnan:

One area of uncertainty revolves around who was the best goalie in the NHL after Brimsek returned from the war with Bill Durnan now at his peak playing in nets for the Habs. This will probably remain somewhat uncertain, but a few documents highlight what their contemporaries thought of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

3.3.1944 - Ottawa Citizen:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=4246,502297

Quote:
Bert Gardiner's assist on a Bill Cowley goal the other night marks the second time a Boston puck-stopper has figured in such a feat..."Tiny" Thompson once got credit for starting a scoring play...The similarity ends right there...Gardiner as a goaltender, didn't belong in the same rink as Thompson...Put "Tiny" between the pipes right now instead of preparing to join New York Rangers on the outside...Frank Brimsek, of course, would also have made the Bruins a winning aggregation...Which reminds us that Dick Irvin is quoted as saying Bill Durnan is the best goaler since the late Chuck Gardiner of Chicago...We'll take Brimsek even while admitting Durnan is a pretty fair puck-stopper.
19.10.1946 - The Montreal Gazette:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4524,3622046

Quote:
These two teams feature the best goaltenders of modern times, and they are still debating whether Bill Durnan, of the Habitants, is a better netminder than Frankie (Mr. Zero) Brimsek. Before the appearance of Durnan in the NHL, Brimsek was acknowledged to be in a class by himself. But lately he has been forced to move over to make room for Durnan in the same bracket.
26.3.1948 - Lewiston Evening Journal:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=1366,7437814

Quote:
Three members of the Detroit Red Wings made the first team of a National Hockey League all-star team in a fan poll conducted by the Hockey News, international hockey weekly.

Wing goaltender Harry Lumley collected the most points, 7,947.

...

Editor's Note - There's another All-Team which will cause plenty of debate. One thing questionable is the leaving of Frankie Brimsek off either the the (sic.) first or second club. The brothers have apparently gone on the figures of "goals scored against" totally ignoring the fact that the defense in front of Brimsek all the season has been inferior to the brand given by either Detroit or Toronto clubs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comments: The last document is probably of the most interest to us. It provides further evidence of the era's strange bias towards team goals-against when evaluating goaltenders, but it does something else, as well. 1947-48 was the only season of Durnan's career in which the Habs did not give up the fewest goals against, and Durnan did not win the Vezina Trophy and a place on the 1st all-star team. Durnan's GAA that season was only 3rd best in the league, while Brimsek's was 4th best. Brimsek would go on to capture the 2nd team all-star slot (narrowly losing to Vezina winner Turk Broda) and finish 2nd in Hart Trophy voting.

It is interesting that the sports desk editor above goes out of his way to criticize an all-star team without Brimsek on it, but mentions nothing of Durnan when the latter's team was not leading the league in goals against.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-18-2014 at 05:14 AM.
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02-18-2014, 05:13 AM
  #402
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Brimsek's later playoff record:

Finally, these documents should cast a bit of light on what was going on with Brimsek and the Bruins in the playoffs in the late 40's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.4.1947 - The Montreal Gazette:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=4144,703476

Quote:
Durnan, Brimsek Shine

Then, through a full overtime period of 20 minutes and 16 minutes and 40 seconds of another, the big crowd sat tense and tight-lipped as first one team and then the other threatened to break the stalemate. But Bill Durnan and Frankie Brimsek made miraculous saves to keep their nets inviolate. They went to their knees, they came out of their nets, they caught pucks which were flying so fast they were almost invisible to the naked eye, they did the splits and performed other acrobatics to turn aside shots while the crowd sat looking on in a clammy sweat.
13.11.1948 - The Manitoba Ensign:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=2777,431475

Quote:
The Stanley Cup usually is won by the team which finishes the regular season in good physical shape and adequately staffed with reserves. Many a team has wasted its strength in winning the NHL championship and then has been eliminated from the Stanley Cup rounds by a club that finished in fourth place.

The two teams which should survive the hard schedule in the best of shape are the young, rugged Maple Leafs and the slightly older but nonetheless rugged Detroit Red Wings. The Boston Bruins will be gone-goslings if, as in past seasons, they are forced to go into the playoffs, suffering from disabilities to those expert veterans, Milt Schmidt, Woody Dumart and Johnny Crawford.

This bureau's crystal ball frequently has proved to be slightly clouded, but we'll predict that this season's finalists once again will be the Maple Leafs and the Red Wings - with the Leafs winning their third successive Stanley Cup.
31.3.1949 - Ottawa Citizen:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=3300,8923424

Quote:
Freak Tally

The Toronto "clincher" registered during the ninth minute of the second period, was on the "freak" side. While trying to clear Gus Mortson's passout, defenseman Pat Egan topped the puck and it dropped on the line inside goalkeeper Frankie Brimsek, who had swooped out to make the stop. Before the latter could make a move for the puck, Max Bentley swept in and jabbed it home for what proved to be the Leafs' winning goal.

...

Post-game comment by officials of the Boston club, and some of the players, all ran in the same vein. The Bruins fought it out to the finish, and more credit goes to them due to the fact that they so battled while handicapped by the loss through injury of three such capable performers as Milt Schmidt, Jimmy Peters and Johnny Crawford.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comments: We can't put too much into the 1947 document as it is only a single game, though Brimsek seems to have played very well, and it should be noted that the Bruins scored only 10 goals in the 5 games of that series they lost to the Habs, easily the worst GPG average of all the playoff teams in that first round (the stats for the playoffs to that point can be found in the same document).

The other documents are much more interesting. The Bruins of the late 1940's were an aging team, and it seems they had a bad habit of limping into the playoffs in that period. Without quite detailed evidence (which is not worth the time to me) we can't know exactly how Brimsek performed, but at least we can say that he doesn't appear to have been the problem on those teams.

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Old
02-18-2014, 01:58 PM
  #403
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A very interesting article here about rounded corners in the old "Aud" in Ottawa, and how Cy Denneny and Punch Broadbent apparently used to be able to control caroms to an unusual degree on their home ice.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6048,2351962

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02-18-2014, 02:02 PM
  #404
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Preseason 1932 rules changes: kicking the puck and delay of game penalties look like the big ones.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=3952,304645

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02-18-2014, 02:10 PM
  #405
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Interesting article about coaches' picks for penalty shooters (this was the old set penalty shot from 38 feet out) circa 1934.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6856,2436641

Evidently, Ebbie Goodfellow had what would today probably translate into a wicked point shot.

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02-18-2014, 02:26 PM
  #406
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Found this one by accident when I was doing follow-up research on Fredrickson for the HOH project. If you scroll to page 3, you'll find the full article that is often sited ("more grey matter...blah...blah") in snippets in which Frank Patrick discusses Duke Keats.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

On page 8 of the following article is another interesting, and much less glowing, description of Keats in a game summary:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...rontpage&hl=en

Basically, it calls him a slow diver, but says he murdered a young Frank Boucher in the faceoff circle. My favorite bit is this:

Quote:
Keats also showed a disposition to hold the puck in a recumbent position, so Lloyd Cook bestrode him, probably forgetting that the indoor polo is not on until Saturday again.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-18-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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02-18-2014, 03:04 PM
  #407
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Here's a wonderful quote from Bill Cook's coaching tenure:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5359,5108544

Quote:
"When I was a player, I believed in being uncivil."

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02-18-2014, 03:22 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Here's a wonderful quote from Bill Cook's coaching tenure:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5359,5108544
hahaha that is a good one

Kind of like Ted Green's thing about owning the corners.. or Shero's arriving in ill humour.. great stuff

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02-19-2014, 06:55 PM
  #409
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I came across an interesting article from the Ottawa Journal in 1927. It is primarily about King Clancy but includes some comparisons to other defenders as well.

Ottawa Journal - April 9, 1927:


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02-20-2014, 02:55 PM
  #410
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Here is a post from elsewhere on HfBoards:

Quote:
WC 2005


Russia 4-2 Austria
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 3-1 Kazakhstan
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist
Russia 4-3 Finland (quarter)
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 3-4 Canada (semi)
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 6-3 Sweden (bronze)
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 2 assist

Total: 8 Games Played, 8 Points

Olympic Games 2006


Russia 3-5 Slovakia
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 5-0 Sweden
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 9-2 Latvia
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 5-4 USA
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 2-0 Canada (quarter)
Ovechkin: 1 goal

Total: 8 Games Played, 5 Points

WC 2006


Russia 3-3 Sweden
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 10-1 Kazakhstan
Ovechkin: 3 goals
Russia 6-0 Ukraine
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 2 assists
Russia 3-4 Czech Republic (Quarter Final)
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist

Total: 7 Games Played, 9 Points

WC 2007


Russia 9-1 Denmark
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist
Russia 8-1 Ukraine
Ovechkin: 1 assist

Total: 8 Games Played, 3 Points

WC 2008


Russia 7-1 Italy
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 4-1 Denmark
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 4-3 Belarus
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist
Russia 3-2 Sweden
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist
Russia 5-3 Switzerland
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist
Russia 6-0 Switzerland (quarter)
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 4-0 Finland (semi)
Ovechkin: 1 assist
Russia 5-4 Canada (final)
Ovechkin: 2 assist

Total: 9 Games Played, 12 Points

Olympic Games 2010


Russia 8-2 Latvia
Ovechkin: 2 goals
Russia 4-2 Czech Republic
Ovechkin: 2 assist

Total: 4 Games Played, 4 Points

WC 2010


Russia 3-1 Slovakia
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 4-1 Kazakhstan
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 3-1 Belarus
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 3-2 Germany
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 6-1 Denmark
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 5-0 Finland
Ovechkin: 1 assist
(silver without points in playoffs)

Total: 9 Games Played, 6 Points

WC 2011


5 Matches, Russia became #4
Ovechkin: Got 0 points, playing 2 group stage games and then quarter final victory and loss in both the semifinal and then in the bronze medal game.

Total: 5 Games Played, 0 Points

WC 2012


Russia 5-2 Norway (quarter)
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 6-2 Finland (semi)
Ovechkin: 1 goal
Russia 6-2 Slovakia (final)
Ovechkin: 2 assist

Total: 3 Games Played, 4 Points

WC 2013


Russia 3-8 USA (quarter)
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist

Total: 1 Game Played, 2 Points

Olympic Games 2014


Russia 5-2 Slovenia
Ovechkin: 1 goal, 1 assist

Total: 5 Games Played, 2 Points

So what do I want to show you from all of these statistics?

Mine and surely many others personal view on Ovechkin from his youth and first two years in the national team was tremendous - this guy could be the next Kharlamov with his explosiveness, skill and passion for the sport and his team.
That goal against Canada during the WC 2005 when Russia were down 4-0 and he scored the 4-3 and in the next split second made a tackle on the nearest canadien player because he was on total adrenaline and he showed the biggest heart I've ever seen during Russias time since they became Russia. - He had it all.

He was so grea to watch both in the EHT-tournaments and in the Olympics and WC in 2006.

This was a turning point though.

His first season in NHL was great and he became a better player while he at the same time didnīt forget his russian roots and style of play - he had been away too short from Russia and played 2 tournaments for them during that season.
My greatest fear was also that he would change his style.

...And so he did

During Russias own home tournament with amazing home crowd he did more or less nothing - and this was the start of what would last up to even this day.

Bad game after bad game, bad tournament after bad tournament. People were so hyped, fanboys loved his goals in NHL, media loved his non-conservative style in everything he did.

In 2008 he made a line with Semin and Fedorov - both Washington players at that time and they knew eachother very well and formed an awesome line during that tournament, they passed the puck like if they played during the 80's and together with that Kazan line consisting of Morozov, Zinoviev and Zaripov this was a great team.

We all had hopes up again, but Ovechkin was really done after that tournament. I wanted to show you why by brining all the statistics and show you that Since after that tournament in -08, the olympic games 2010 he managed only to score points against fairly weak teams - and when scoring against any of the big 7 teams it was either when Russia already had a big lead or were down by so many goals that it was unreachable. More or less he didnīt score a meaningful goal or assist ever since 2008.

What is such player doing do the team by playing 20-25 minutes per game and not producing? Ever since he changed his style from Russian to North American in 2007 it has always felt as if he has been overhaused, politically chosen and nothing felt natural anymore.

He had dozens of shots game in and game out, the big 7 teams read his style very well and had no problems stopping him.

Big discussions always start about him being misplaced with wrong players, and that might be true. Ovechkin needs to have players that fit him perfectly because thats how he succeeds. HE.
What does this do to the team? Has Washington ever won anything during his time? What happends to a team that i built around 1 single player and he has a bad day?

Russian national teams during the period of 2006-2014 have been absolute superstars since everyone of them has wanted to represent the team when they could, even Ovechkin which I actually appreciate a lot.
But Russia has so many great snipers which donīt require their teammates to pass him and then go hunting for the pucks he shoots wide - which are a lot.

I know that many of you here only watch him during NHL and then the olympics, sometimes world championships and only a few of you watch the EHT-tournaments (like I have done since 2003) and actually see the whole process of our national team.
But try to be objective, I have never said that Ovechkin is a bad player, because he is not in the NHL. But in my opinion he shouldnīt be invited to the national team and I have thought so ever since 2007 - his style is not russian, he would fit better in a Canadian roster, but in Russia I would like him to play in a 4th line at best with 5-8 minutes per game.

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02-20-2014, 03:03 PM
  #411
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That whole post is kind of garbage.

You build your team and then develop your style and coaching tactics based on the players you have. Not some preconceived notion about how your team should play.

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02-20-2014, 03:08 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
That whole post is kind of garbage.
Actually, no. There's a lot of good info there dug up.

You disagree with the poster's end conclusions.

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02-20-2014, 03:11 PM
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Actually, no. There's a lot of good info there dug up.

You disagree with the poster's end conclusions.
Sorry yes

Information = Good

Conclusion = Pointless and misguided

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02-20-2014, 03:14 PM
  #414
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He definitely changed his style. Anyone watching Caps hockey over the course of his career should be able to see that easily. Some of it was due to the fact the big walrus (BB) was fired and the Caps never played the same style since. Moving him to RW never made sense to me either....

Ovechkin is still an elite goal scorer. The only guy i can see challenging him for a better post lock out peak is Stamkos and that's not an easy call to make.

With that being said, he has routinely under performed in big games more often than not. Again, something that is quite clear to anyone that has watched him play in the postseason and more recent world games.

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02-20-2014, 03:17 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
He definitely changed his style. Anyone watching Caps hockey over the course of his career should be able to see that easily. Some of it was due to the fact the big walrus (BB) was fired and the Caps never played the same style since. Moving him to RW never made sense to me either....

Ovechkin is still an elite goal scorer. The only guy i can see challenging him for a better post lock out peak is Stamkos and that's not an easy call to make.

With that being said, he has routinely under performed in big games more often than not. Again, something that is quite clear to anyone that has watched him play in the postseason and more recent world games.
Before I attack, do you mean the latest lockout or the 2006 one?

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02-20-2014, 03:18 PM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
That whole post is kind of garbage.

You build your team and then develop your style and coaching tactics based on the players you have. Not some preconceived notion about how your team should play.
It is a chicken and the egg thing..

Sometimes you build around a key player and sometimes you bring in players to suit the team.

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02-20-2014, 03:20 PM
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
Before I attack, do you mean the latest lockout or the 2006 one?
The lockout in 04-05. I'm not that obtuse.

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02-20-2014, 03:22 PM
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
The lockout in 04-05. I'm not that obtuse.
I cannot see anyway that Stamkos's peak could even be close to Ovechkin's. Barely in the same ballpark....maybe

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02-20-2014, 03:28 PM
  #419
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Stamkos had 51/45/60/29(on pace for 50+ over full season)/14(in 17 games before broken leg) this year.

He's 24 and not yet in his prime. If he comes back 100% i see no reason why he can't push 60 goals a few more times. He's not far off Ovie in terms of being a goal scorer. Stamkos is 0.57 to AO's .063 per game.....

It's a bit of a long shot, but it could happen with a couple of 55-60 goal type seasons by Stammy.

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02-20-2014, 03:36 PM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
Stamkos had 51/45/60/29(on pace for 50+ over full season)/14(in 17 games before broken leg) this year.

He's 24 and not yet in his prime. If he comes back 100% i see no reason why he can't push 60 goals a few more times. He's not far off Ovie in terms of being a goal scorer. Stamkos is 0.57 to AO's .063 per game.....

It's a bit of a long shot, but it could happen with a couple of 55-60 goal type seasons by Stammy.
Ovechkin at 24 years old

2005-06 NHL Calder Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Art Ross Trophy
2007-08 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2007-08 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2007-08 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2008-09 NHL Hart Memorial Trophy
2008-09 NHL Maurice Richard Trophy
2008-09 NHL Ted Lindsay Award
2009-10 NHL Ted Lindsay Award

Points
2005-06 NHL 106 (3)
2007-08 NHL 112 (1)
2008-09 NHL 110 (2)
2009-10 NHL 109 (2)

Goals
2005-06 NHL 52 (3)
2006-07 NHL 46 (4)
2007-08 NHL 65 (1)
2008-09 NHL 56 (1)
2009-10 NHL 50 (3)

At 24 he's already a lock for the HHOF.

And it's pretty clear now, this was his peak

Edit : And I'm pretty sure his 60 goal season is part of his prime


Last edited by ResilientBeast: 02-20-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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02-20-2014, 03:48 PM
  #421
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I'm not saying as a player.....sorry if you thought i meant overall. I was talking about goal scoring peak. Thought i made it clear, but apparently not.

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02-20-2014, 03:49 PM
  #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
I'm not saying as a player.....sorry if you thought i meant overall. I was talking about goal scoring peak. Thought i made it clear, but apparently not.
As a goal scorer maybe. But Stamkos just doesn't look like the force of nature Ovechkin was

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02-20-2014, 03:54 PM
  #423
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He's not, you're right. Stamkos is just smoother/casual looking. Ovechkin was a freak who had boundless energy and played at a zillion MPH the first half of his career.

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02-20-2014, 03:59 PM
  #424
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He's not, you're right. Stamkos is just smoother/casual looking. Ovechkin was a freak who had boundless energy and played at a zillion MPH the first half of his career.
As a goalscorer he's probably second after the lockout.

Shame Ovechkin is this husk of himself

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02-20-2014, 04:37 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
That whole post is kind of garbage.

You build your team and then develop your style and coaching tactics based on the players you have. Not some preconceived notion about how your team should play.
The thing about international play is that you aren't locked into any players. You can pick you you want. No 13 year contracts at the Olympics.

If having Ovechkin means your team is locked into a certain style and coaching tactics - and if those tactics are not conducive to winning - you have to ask if you want Ovechkin playing a major role on your team. Even if you disagree with the conclusions it's an important question.

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