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Official Proposal Thread #4/Rumor thread (Both Oiler and Non-Oiler)

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Old
02-14-2011, 07:28 PM
  #101
McOilbleeder
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
which is what i think they should do anyhow to be honest, unless they get an offer they can't refuse ... there aren't too many guys with his combination of size + hands in the entire league... 6'4", 240 lbs, plays decent defence and pots 25-30 goals a season is a good package... penner is only 28 years old, has never had injury problems and has a LOT less pro-hockey miles on his body than most 28 year olds in the NHL... barring some major unlucky injury, i don't see why penner can't be a solid contributor for at least another 4-6 years
Cap space, simply put.

MPS and Hall are LW's primarily. Hall won't be a C and MPS won't be a RW. Their LW's.

Hall is on pace for ~25 goals in his rookie season. This is on a Putrid team with no gravy PP time.

He is on track to be a better player than Penner.

MPS has shown a remarkably good two-way game for a rookie. While his offense hasn't come on yet, I don't think we can doubt that it's there. Somewhere. Hopefully.

Penner, at minimum, will cost $5 million/yr. No question about it. If Gionta can get it, and if Colby Armstrong can get $4, then Penner can too.

Hell Malone got $4.5 for one season with over 25 goals. One.

Penner's agent will be a moron otherwise if he doesn't ask for $5, at least(hell I'd ask more).

So it becomes a risk vs. reward type situation here.

Do you bet that MPS will be a consistent 60 point forward and Hall becomes a consistent 30-35 goal scorer? If so, both of those will cost around $5.5(for Hall, low end) and around $3.5-4(average maybe?) for MPS.

Where does that leave Penner. We either have a 2nd/3rd line LW who makes $5 million.

MPS and Hall will need more ice time as they grow to develop further. What do you give them?

We knew when we drafted Hall that Penner was eventually going to get phased out. Hall and MPS, that doesn't leave a lot of room for Penner.

Also, if I was Penner's agent, I'd want to test the market. He'll be 29 when he's a FA, and it's probably his last big pay cheque.

Why would I risk being stuck with 2nd/3rd line minutes for $5 million, when I can go play 1st line minutes as a LW with primo PP time for potentially more, if not the same.

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02-14-2011, 07:30 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
Penner > Versteeg

Penner > Fisher


Deadline's going to be awesome if these are the guys to compare
If anything those trades have raised the value of Hemsky and Penner. But I think Tambo wants a stud Dman for either player over a first round pick.

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02-14-2011, 07:42 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Cap space, simply put.

MPS and Hall are LW's primarily. Hall won't be a C and MPS won't be a RW. Their LW's.

Hall is on pace for ~25 goals in his rookie season. This is on a Putrid team with no gravy PP time.

He is on track to be a better player than Penner.

MPS has shown a remarkably good two-way game for a rookie. While his offense hasn't come on yet, I don't think we can doubt that it's there. Somewhere. Hopefully.

Penner, at minimum, will cost $5 million/yr. No question about it. If Gionta can get it, and if Colby Armstrong can get $4, then Penner can too.

Hell Malone got $4.5 for one season with over 25 goals. One.

Penner's agent will be a moron otherwise if he doesn't ask for $5, at least(hell I'd ask more).

So it becomes a risk vs. reward type situation here.

Do you bet that MPS will be a consistent 60 point forward and Hall becomes a consistent 30-35 goal scorer? If so, both of those will cost around $5.5(for Hall, low end) and around $3.5-4(average maybe?) for MPS.

Where does that leave Penner. We either have a 2nd/3rd line LW who makes $5 million.

MPS and Hall will need more ice time as they grow to develop further. What do you give them?

We knew when we drafted Hall that Penner was eventually going to get phased out. Hall and MPS, that doesn't leave a lot of room for Penner.

Also, if I was Penner's agent, I'd want to test the market. He'll be 29 when he's a FA, and it's probably his last big pay cheque.

Why would I risk being stuck with 2nd/3rd line minutes for $5 million, when I can go play 1st line minutes as a LW with primo PP time for potentially more, if not the same.
personally, i think penner would be moved to RW... he played it before in anaheim, and has played it some for us as well... penner is your #1 RW and eberle is your #2... hemsky would be traded in my scenario, simply because i think he costs more to re-sign as a UFA... i agree that penner probably gets around 4.5-5 million, and i don't see any problem with that either... say you sign him for 5 mill for 5 years, and in 2 years from now the 3 rooks all get big raises... if you don't have the cap room, i don't think penner is a hard guy to trade... people are always looking for big guys who can score, and its not like he'll be making 6 or 7 million either... even if you don't get much of anything for him when you do trade him, its not like it cost you anything (other than katz's money) to keep him a couple years into his UFA years

what i like about keeping him (or hemsky really, if you can get him for cheaper than penner) is that it gives the kids some veteran support AND it gives us a plan B for if the rooks don't turn out the way we think they will... lets be honest here, there is a very good chance that 1 or 2 of our rooks don't end up as good as we want them to be... what happens if hall "only" becomes a 30g, 30a guy? what if eberle never becomes anything more than a 20g, 30a guy? what if paajarvi becomes dvorak v2.0? these are all legitimate questions, having penner (or hemsky) would at least allow us a backup plan of sorts

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02-14-2011, 08:08 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
personally, i think penner would be moved to RW... he played it before in anaheim, and has played it some for us as well... penner is your #1 RW and eberle is your #2... hemsky would be traded in my scenario, simply because i think he costs more to re-sign as a UFA... i agree that penner probably gets around 4.5-5 million, and i don't see any problem with that either... say you sign him for 5 mill for 5 years, and in 2 years from now the 3 rooks all get big raises... if you don't have the cap room, i don't think penner is a hard guy to trade... people are always looking for big guys who can score, and its not like he'll be making 6 or 7 million either... even if you don't get much of anything for him when you do trade him, its not like it cost you anything (other than katz's money) to keep him a couple years into his UFA years

what i like about keeping him (or hemsky really, if you can get him for cheaper than penner) is that it gives the kids some veteran support AND it gives us a plan B for if the rooks don't turn out the way we think they will... lets be honest here, there is a very good chance that 1 or 2 of our rooks don't end up as good as we want them to be... what happens if hall "only" becomes a 30g, 30a guy? what if eberle never becomes anything more than a 20g, 30a guy? what if paajarvi becomes dvorak v2.0? these are all legitimate questions, having penner (or hemsky) would at least allow us a backup plan of sorts
A couple of problems to that:

1.) Your paying $5 million, which is a lot of cap space, for a guy to play his secondary position, are you sure he's as good at RW as he is at LW? Sure it's simple enough to say, oh year RW is just the other side of LW, but Hemsky sucks balls to the wall at LW. And lets say he can play, how well? Will he be 25 goals/season well? Will it dip?

If your going to keep him at that price, you better either play him at his primary position where he is good or make sure he's as good at RW as he is at LW.

Because the moment his production dips to less than 25 goals 55-60 points, you've got an albatross on your hands, and we already have one with Horcoff, with a young team with this much talent, we cannot afford 2.

2.) Will Penner be willing to play RW? Your about to earn your last big pay cheque, your team says, we'll move you to RW, you'll be #1 RW, here is the number you wanted, would you take it?

Sure you can play it, but are you willing is the question. He knows he could go on the market and play #1 LW on a team for a contract as big, if not more.

And as far as Penner isn't that hard to trade, question becomes, when is his value higher? Do you trade him now for say, Bos 1st + Alexandrov + Colborne?

Or would a dip in production with a $5 million dollar contract decrease his value where we get Versteeg type return(when he went to the Maple leafs)?

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02-14-2011, 08:13 PM
  #105
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Does "InsidetheRink" have any twitter credibility? I can't remember if he was the one who actually picked up on a few things or if he was the one that basically just posted random nothingness.

He is posting we are scouting the Cgy-Col game...though I have no idea way because neither team will trade their 1st IMO and none really have tons of interesting prospects that they are willing to move.

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Old
02-14-2011, 08:16 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Does "InsidetheRink" have any twitter credibility? I can't remember if he was the one who actually picked up on a few things or if he was the one that basically just posted random nothingness.

He is posting we are scouting the Cgy-Col game...though I have no idea way because neither team will trade their 1st IMO and none really have tons of interesting prospects that they are willing to move.
Cgy:

D Tim Erixon

Col:

C Joey Hishon
D Stefan Elliot

For me, that's it.

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02-14-2011, 08:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
A couple of problems to that:

1.) Your paying $5 million, which is a lot of cap space, for a guy to play his secondary position, are you sure he's as good at RW as he is at LW? Sure it's simple enough to say, oh year RW is just the other side of LW, but Hemsky sucks balls to the wall at LW. And lets say he can play, how well? Will he be 25 goals/season well? Will it dip?

If your going to keep him at that price, you better either play him at his primary position where he is good or make sure he's as good at RW as he is at LW.

Because the moment his production dips to less than 25 goals 55-60 points, you've got an albatross on your hands, and we already have one with Horcoff, with a young team with this much talent, we cannot afford 2.

2.) Will Penner be willing to play RW? Your about to earn your last big pay cheque, your team says, we'll move you to RW, you'll be #1 RW, here is the number you wanted, would you take it?

Sure you can play it, but are you willing is the question. He knows he could go on the market and play #1 LW on a team for a contract as big, if not more.

And as far as Penner isn't that hard to trade, question becomes, when is his value higher? Do you trade him now for say, Bos 1st + Alexandrov + Colborne?

Or would a dip in production with a $5 million dollar contract decrease his value where we get Versteeg type return(when he went to the Maple leafs)?
i pretty much agree with your two points, at least mostly

point 1... yes, you would definitely have to figure out if penner was capable of playing RW at a high level, and there is no better time than now to find out ... since losses this season don't really matter anyhow... obviously if he can't play RW, or is significantly worse on the right side, you switch your focus to signing hemsky to a fair contract (again, i'm fine with keeping either of them, whichever is cheaper really)

point 2... i'm not sure either of us could say when his value would be higher... if we sign him, and he's playing with a (hopefully) improved oilers team in 2 years, whose to say he doesn't put up much bigger offensive numbers, thus improving his value? again, its too hard to guess one way or the other, and if we get a very good offer this year, i think you have to think long and hard about taking it... but i just don't buy the argument that penner is worth more now than in 2 years, we simply don't know... my guess is that it would be roughly the same, but thats just a guess

you're dreaming in technicolor if you think that penner gets us boston's pick by itself, let alone with additional parts coming back our way... penner would likely get a little more than what versteeg went for today... something along the lines of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and either a mid-grade prospect or additional 2nd rounder would seem fair

again, if we get some sweet offers for hemsky/penner, you take them.... i just think that signing one of them wouldn't be a bad idea either

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02-14-2011, 08:18 PM
  #108
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Before Next year

I love the oilers......the last game was painful to watch but we are in the middle of a rebuild, things will get better , idk if tambo is the right man for the job tho.......I saw the faces of our young guys and I felt bad for them

kk here is what needs to happen

centers
______
Gagner
Horcoff
______

LW
Hall
PRV
_____
_____

RW
Eberle
Penner
Jones
______

D
Whitney
Pekham
Gilbert
Smid
______
______

Khabi
DD

so the pieces we have to trade are
Hemsky
cogs
Brule
Omark
foster
Fraser

and no i don't think these players are bad ....but we need more size and grit from our bottom 6

What we need
vet shut down guy
top line center
face off specialist
big grit wingers
and A PP COACH

if I heard correctly our pp is 3 for 83 and that is just........wow


PS I'm not saying that all the needs are going to be met before next season starts but some of them should

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02-14-2011, 08:18 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Does "InsidetheRink" have any twitter credibility? I can't remember if he was the one who actually picked up on a few things or if he was the one that basically just posted random nothingness.

He is posting we are scouting the Cgy-Col game...though I have no idea way because neither team will trade their 1st IMO and none really have tons of interesting prospects that they are willing to move.
If the Oilers are scouting, they are probably just getting some early pro scouting in as the play the Avs next week and possibly looking at some of the younger "role" players currently with the Avs as, imo, potential players to add to the bottom-6 or some soon to be UFAs.

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Old
02-14-2011, 08:21 PM
  #110
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I hope you don't mind hockeynight, but I'm going to merge this into the proposals thread.

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02-14-2011, 08:24 PM
  #111
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I hope you don't mind hockeynight, but I'm going to merge this into the proposals thread.
lol ofcourse not

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02-14-2011, 08:34 PM
  #112
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you're dreaming in technicolor if you think that penner gets us boston's pick by itself, let alone with additional parts coming back our way... penner would likely get a little more than what versteeg went for today... something along the lines of a mid-to-late 1st rounder and either a mid-grade prospect or additional 2nd rounder would seem fair

again, if we get some sweet offers for hemsky/penner, you take them.... i just think that signing one of them wouldn't be a bad idea either
I agree with both your points, I'll just say this, if Penner signs a $5 million dollar contract for 5 years, I think his value may drop due to him having a big contract locked in for 5 years. Right now, with 2 years on his good deal, he gives teams flexibility with security. Apart from that, we're in agreement.

With regards to his value, I don't think it's far off. Boston's pick right now is in the 24th range overall. If they add Penner, I think there is a good chance that they'd pick 25 and below. Penner-Bergeron-Horton. That line would be hell to play against, add to the fact that they'd hem you in your own zone until you die. They'd also be good in the two-way game. And can score and play physical.

Alexandrov isn't a blue chipper, but he's a better prospect than Petry is/was.

Maybe I'm aiming a little high with Colborne, instead add Knight/Cross.

That's right on par with the market imo.

Fisher --> late 1st, conditional next year.
Versteeg --> late 1st, late 3rd.
Penner (better player than both) --> late 1st, 2 decent prospects. Neither are blue chippers.

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02-14-2011, 08:47 PM
  #113
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I agree with both your points, I'll just say this, if Penner signs a $5 million dollar contract for 5 years, I think his value may drop due to him having a big contract locked in for 5 years. Right now, with 2 years on his good deal, he gives teams flexibility with security. Apart from that, we're in agreement.

With regards to his value, I don't think it's far off. Boston's pick right now is in the 24th range overall. If they add Penner, I think there is a good chance that they'd pick 25 and below. Penner-Bergeron-Horton. That line would be hell to play against, add to the fact that they'd hem you in your own zone until you die. They'd also be good in the two-way game. And can score and play physical.

Alexandrov isn't a blue chipper, but he's a better prospect than Petry is/was.

Maybe I'm aiming a little high with Colborne, instead add Knight/Cross.

That's right on par with the market imo.

Fisher --> late 1st, conditional next year.
Versteeg --> late 1st, late 3rd.
Penner (better player than both) --> late 1st, 2 decent prospects. Neither are blue chippers.
Would you rather a pick in the 25-30 range + 2 decent prospects or a pick in the 15-20 range + one very solid prospect, but not blue-chip?

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02-14-2011, 08:50 PM
  #114
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Some interesting thoughts on Penner. I say sign him and deal Hemsky. 5mil sounds like a reasonable pricetag and I'd pay it all day long. There's little doubt in my mind that he could earn it at LW/RW or even C. He's a unique player on our team and in the league and has intangibles in spades. If he finds himself behind Hall and PRV, his aforementioned versatility will guarantee him PP time and turns a checking line with Horcoff into a 3rd scoring line. Pay the man.

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02-14-2011, 08:53 PM
  #115
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With regards to his value, I don't think it's far off. Boston's pick right now is in the 24th range overall. If they add Penner, I think there is a good chance that they'd pick 25 and below. Penner-Bergeron-Horton. That line would be hell to play against, add to the fact that they'd hem you in your own zone until you die. They'd also be good in the two-way game. And can score and play physical.
sorry, i thought you meant boston's 1st rounder they were getting from toronto... my mistake.... yeah, i agree for the most part then with what you have boston giving up for penner

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02-14-2011, 08:54 PM
  #116
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Although Veersteeg is still growing as a player, I have to say Brian Burke made another good deal. Pierre McGuire is full of it. If Versteeg can get a first rounder than Penner damn well can.

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02-14-2011, 09:00 PM
  #117
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Although Veersteeg is still growing as a player, I have to say Brian Burke made another good deal. Pierre McGuire is full of it. If Versteeg can get a first rounder than Penner damn well can.
Meh. What do u think the odds are that that 25-30 pick turns out better than versteeg? IMO about 15%. Granted an 18yo fresh drafted player is an asset you control for more years, I wouldn't be excited about the trade. Unless they can flip that first and Kaberle for their own first back, maybe with some +s in there somewhere. Think that's a possibility? Cuz then its a win.

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02-14-2011, 09:07 PM
  #118
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Would you rather a pick in the 25-30 range + 2 decent prospects or a pick in the 15-20 range + one very solid prospect, but not blue-chip?
Oof, that's a conundrum.

Honestly, it depends on the prospects.

If it's 25-30 pick + prospects like Muzzin, Alt etc. Then I'd take 15-20 range.

If it's 25-30 with guys like Alexandrov and Voynov, then I'd go with 25-30.

Depends on the prospect.

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02-14-2011, 09:12 PM
  #119
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Hemsky
Gilbert
EDM 2nd or Cogliano

for

TOR 1st
Wheeler or Ryder (their choice)
Stuart

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02-14-2011, 09:13 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
Oof, that's a conundrum.

Honestly, it depends on the prospects.

If it's 25-30 pick + prospects like Muzzin, Alt etc. Then I'd take 15-20 range.

If it's 25-30 with guys like Alexandrov and Voynov, then I'd go with 25-30.

Depends on the prospect.
1st + Forbort vs. 1st + Muzzin + Teubert? This one will be tough

The reason I ask, is simply b/c i think it would be good if we could focus on getting 2 really good pieces as opposed to 3 pretty solid pieces. We have seen and been apart of quite a few quality for quantity deals, and have seen and been left with nothing.

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02-14-2011, 09:15 PM
  #121
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Hemsky
Gilbert
EDM 2nd or Cogliano

for

TOR 1st
Wheeler or Ryder (their choice)
Stuart
Make it Cogs and I think even the deliberate Tambo would make an impulse deal. Too much to pass up and gives us massive flexibility. With Gilbert's money, we can get a better d-man IMO.

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02-14-2011, 09:22 PM
  #122
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With all the Penner and Hemsky talk.....anyone want to make a suggestion where Vandermeer ends up... I am going to say NYR for a 4th

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02-14-2011, 09:25 PM
  #123
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With all the Penner and Hemsky talk.....anyone want to make a suggestion where Vandermeer ends up... I am going to say NYR for a 4th
Sounds like they're pretty anxious to get rid of Gilroy. Pretty reasonable guess I'd say.

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02-14-2011, 09:25 PM
  #124
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With all the Penner and Hemsky talk.....anyone want to make a suggestion where Vandermeer ends up... I am going to say NYR for a 4th
Vandermeer to Minnesota for Patrick O'Sullivan, then Minnesota buys out Vandermeer

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02-14-2011, 09:26 PM
  #125
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With all the Penner and Hemsky talk.....anyone want to make a suggestion where Vandermeer ends up... I am going to say NYR for a 4th
The guy wont be in the NHL next season but if Rags want to give up a 4th or 5th for him so be it.

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