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Will Selanne ever be considered the greatest Fin?

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Old
02-20-2011, 02:19 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.
Are you ****ing kidding?

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02-20-2011, 02:49 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.

getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
Actually, Selanne was getting more than 2 minutes less than Getzlaf.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/ANA/2007.html

In order of importance:

Niedermayer
Pronger
Pahlsson
Giguere
Beauchemin
Getzlaf
Selanne

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02-20-2011, 05:44 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Selanne, hands down.

Selanne is still dominant at 40 years old. He played at a time when Goals Per Game were at an all time low. He did not have a roster stacked with superstars to pad his stats.

After 1993, Kurri was washed up. He never even came remotely close to his Gretzky/Oilers era numbers. Selanne would have possibly passed the 900 goal mark if he had played on the Oilers during their dynasty.
It's funny: Kurri had more points with the Oilers the season after Gretzky was traded to the LA Kings than the final season he and Gretzky played together on the Oilers. You can check the stats. Of course, the Oilers and Kurri went on to win the Stanley Cup without Gretzky, who never won the Cup again.

I don't know which player I would rate as better in their prime: Kurri or Selanne. However, the opposite of what you say is also true. Gretzky was never as good a player without Kurri. They were great together and I always felt Kurri never got enough credit for that.

Now to throw something else out there: I'd rate the 40 year old Selanne as better than the 40 year old Gretzky, but that's a totally different debate.

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02-20-2011, 08:24 AM
  #54
Raimo Sillanpää
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Don't diss Kurri's international record just like that:
He was surrounded by subpar teammates
Most of the time he was ineligeble due to the playoffs or the Olympics not allowing professionals

But teams must be compared too - Kurri in his prime was on the stacked Oilers (84-89 seasons who won the cup 4 times). Selänne between the 96 season and 01 was on tje Jets, Ducks and Sharks - getting to the playoffs a total of 3 times.
96-01 was an era of 4 really competitive teams, Red Wings, Avs, Devils and Stars. Put Selänne on one of those teams during that era and then wager at his amount of cups.
If he only were a 4th liner he'd now have 3 to Kurris 5.
If he'd have some impact, add 3 (Red Wings + Devils both lost in the finals once in addition to their 2 cups).

At 40, Selänne is 13th on the NHL points table for this season, add points for games missed per ppg average and he's 9th. At age 40.

Kurri had a better career on paper, but imho Teemu is the all time best Finnish ice hockey player. How many would Teemu have scored next to Gretzky?

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02-20-2011, 08:52 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.

getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
as already shown by others you clearly don´t know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Actually, Selanne was getting more than 2 minutes less than Getzlaf.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/ANA/2007.html

In order of importance:

Niedermayer
Pronger
Pahlsson
Giguere
Beauchemin
Getzlaf
Selanne
I might swap Pronger and Nieds but they did win without him and otherwise I think this is spot on.

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02-20-2011, 09:51 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Gretzky was never as good a player without Kurri.
Did Wayne's (3) Art Ross Trophies and (1) Hart Trophy post-1988 slip your mind?

And, while we are it, why don't you tell the folks at home your theories for Kurri's mind-boggling drop after the age of...30? Jari went from...

'80-'90 (age 20-30)
900 GP - 566 G - 679 A - 1,245 PTS (1.38 PPG)

...to...

'91-'98 (age 31-38)
551 GP - 141 G - 245 A - 386 PTS (0.70 PPG)

Huh? WTF? I understand that a player's point-production will naturally decline as they age, but those numbers are ****ing ridiculous, especially if you believe he is one of the game's greats.

The Oiler dynasty's three main offensive pieces (Gretzky, Messier and Coffey) all found success after leaving Edmonton, while Kurri became an average NHL forward almost over night. Really makes you wonder who needed who during the Edmonton's glory days.

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02-20-2011, 10:22 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Did Wayne's (3) Art Ross Trophies and (1) Hart Trophy post-1988 slip your mind?
And, while we are it, why don't you tell the folks at home your theories for Kurri's mind-boggling drop after the age of...30? Jari went from...

'80-'90 (age 20-30)
900 GP - 566 G - 679 A - 1,245 PTS (1.38 PPG)

...to...

'91-'98 (age 31-38)
551 GP - 141 G - 245 A - 386 PTS (0.70 PPG)

Huh? WTF? I understand that a player's point-production will naturally decline as they age, but those numbers are ****ing ridiculous, especially if you believe he is one of the game's greats.

The Oiler dynasty's three main offensive pieces (Gretzky, Messier and Coffey) all found success after leaving Edmonton, while Kurri became an average NHL forward almost over night. Really makes you wonder who needed who during the Edmonton's glory days.
To the first bolded part he did say he was never as good, he didn't say he was bad? Also Kurri's ppg being cut in half in the 90's is pretty much like Gretzky's...

To the second bolded part, it's already been stated he scored more the year after Gretzky left than he did in his last year with Gretzky.

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02-20-2011, 11:15 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
To the second bolded part, it's already been stated he scored more the year after Gretzky left than he did in his last year with Gretzky.
What about Kurri's last postseason w/ Gretzky ('88) vs. Jari's first postseason without Wayne ('89)? Care to mention that part of the story? And don't even jump ahead to the '90 playoffs, because Kurri wasn't even one of Edmonton's 4 best players that postseason. Again, give me an explanation for Kurri's sudden plummet. 118 PTS in 100 GMS in '89/'90, and then not another point-per-game season the rest of the way. What the **** happened? Sieve much?

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02-20-2011, 12:24 PM
  #59
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People underrate one thing Selanne did in 07 playoffs: drawing attention to himself. On the PP there was 2 guys just watching him which really opened up opportunities for others.

In his prime 93-99 Selanne got to play 21 playoff games and scored 13 goals in them which is the 2nd best playoff gpg after Lemieux in that time period. It's a small sample size though. 01 he played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a small knee surgery just before the playoffs. 02 Bum knee. 03 really bad knee and a reduced role. 06 & 07 he was great. 08 the whole team sucked and his linemates were awful. 09 he played on a line with Ebbett and Christensen (enough said).


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02-20-2011, 12:28 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bolt Vanderhuge View Post
Selanne's international resume should be ignored for comparison's sake. Kurri played at a time of great weakness for Finnish national teams.
Sorry to say, but this logic fails. Most of the people here consider the amount of Kurri's Cups and PO resume as the biggest difference between him and Selanne. Kurri, while being an important factor in Oilers, played in a team where the Cups were that team's to lose. Looking at those rosters, Oilers was a lock to be the top team.

(That is the reason why Grant Fuhr is still in the same discussion with some great goalies, way above his caliber.)

Selanne's international play, if anything, proves that he's no slouch either when the game matters. How do you think Kurri's "weak" international teams should be left out, but Selanne's very weak playoff teams not?

And this is nothing against Kurri, he's undoubtetly one of the great players in hockey history. Wanted just to point out some inconsistencies in this "debate".


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02-20-2011, 01:15 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Did Wayne's (3) Art Ross Trophies and (1) Hart Trophy post-1988 slip your mind?

And, while we are it, why don't you tell the folks at home your theories for Kurri's mind-boggling drop after the age of...30? Jari went from...

'80-'90 (age 20-30)
900 GP - 566 G - 679 A - 1,245 PTS (1.38 PPG)

...to...

'91-'98 (age 31-38)
551 GP - 141 G - 245 A - 386 PTS (0.70 PPG)

Huh? WTF? I understand that a player's point-production will naturally decline as they age, but those numbers are ****ing ridiculous, especially if you believe he is one of the game's greats.

The Oiler dynasty's three main offensive pieces (Gretzky, Messier and Coffey) all found success after leaving Edmonton, while Kurri became an average NHL forward almost over night. Really makes you wonder who needed who during the Edmonton's glory days.
Three main pieces? Please! I was there watching the Oilers dynasty destroy the Jets in person as a kid. You are forgetting Kurri (and Anderson for that matter). And yes Kurri declined relatively early but players peak at different times. As I said, I would rate Selanne as a better 40 year old player than Gretzky. Lemieux was also a far better 35 year old plus player (when he played).

GHOST

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02-20-2011, 01:28 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Raimo Sillanpää View Post
Don't diss Kurri's international record just like that:
He was surrounded by subpar teammates
Most of the time he was ineligeble due to the playoffs or the Olympics not allowing professionals

But teams must be compared too - Kurri in his prime was on the stacked Oilers (84-89 seasons who won the cup 4 times). Selänne between the 96 season and 01 was on tje Jets, Ducks and Sharks - getting to the playoffs a total of 3 times.
96-01 was an era of 4 really competitive teams, Red Wings, Avs, Devils and Stars. Put Selänne on one of those teams during that era and then wager at his amount of cups.
If he only were a 4th liner he'd now have 3 to Kurris 5.
If he'd have some impact, add 3 (Red Wings + Devils both lost in the finals once in addition to their 2 cups).

At 40, Selänne is 13th on the NHL points table for this season, add points for games missed per ppg average and he's 9th. At age 40.

Kurri had a better career on paper, but imho Teemu is the all time best Finnish ice hockey player. How many would Teemu have scored next to Gretzky?
Some good points there.

I know this video might have been brought up every time, but it's got some interesting views from the actual time Selanne was on top of his game (13 some years ago, btw )

If nothing else, some nice goals included.

Wayne makes a comment about the "era" thing as well.
(I expect the first comment to be "what did you expect Gretzky to say, bash them?")


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Old
02-20-2011, 08:25 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Three main pieces? Please! I was there watching the Oilers dynasty destroy the Jets in person as a kid. You are forgetting Kurri (and Anderson for that matter). And yes Kurri declined relatively early but players peak at different times. As I said, I would rate Selanne as a better 40 year old player than Gretzky. Lemieux was also a far better 35 year old plus player (when he played).

GHOST
Very cute of you to think that you are hitting me with brand new knowledge on the Oilers, but you honestly believe Kurri and/or Mr. Child Support were as vital on the offensive end as any of Gretzky, Messier and/or Coffey? If so, get a clue.

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02-20-2011, 09:17 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
Now to throw something else out there: I'd rate the 40 year old Selanne as better than the 40 year old Gretzky, but that's a totally different debate.
The 40 year old Gretzky who had been retired for 2 years?

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02-21-2011, 07:32 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
People underrate one thing Selanne did in 07 playoffs: drawing attention to himself. On the PP there was 2 guys just watching him which really opened up opportunities for others.
Every great player draws extra attention, especially on the powerplay and in the playoffs. It doesn't stop most of them from scoring. I mean, honestly, that has to be the worst argument, EVER. Selanne was an elite forward, among the top ten in the NHL in his prime, but was always a mediocre playoff performer. That's the difference between him and Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, and Jagr, among others from that era.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bananaslug View Post
Pahlsson, Niedermayer and pronger were the only ones imo, giguere was shaky to start the playoffs, bryzgalov played the majority of the first two series i think.

getzlaf and beauchemin played well but not as good as selanne, getzlaf wasnt getting near the minutes that selanne was and mcdonald and selanne were playing unreal together, perry getzlaf and penner couldnt keep up.
If your son was born with a deformed eye, you would probably struggle too. That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled. Carlyle stuck with him for Game 5, and he played every game the rest of the way, playing very well. It wasn't 2003, but it was a far greater contribution than Selanne's, which consisted of 6 points in 6 games against Detroit, and 9 points in the other 15 games spanning three series.


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02-21-2011, 08:36 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
If your son was born with a deformed eye, you would probably struggle too. That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled. Carlyle stuck with him for Game 5, and he played every game the rest of the way, playing very well. It wasn't 2003, but it was a far greater contribution than Selanne's, which consisted of 6 points in 6 games against Detroit, and 9 points in the other 15 games spanning three series.
That's not what happened either. He came into Game 4 as Bryzgalov's relief. He had two bad games all playoff: Game 3 against Detroit and Game 3 against Ottawa, and yes, he was better than Teemu Selanne. He was better than every Duck from the moment Carlyle put him in net.

There weren't really any Ducks on the team that didn't pull their weight (DiPenta and Thornton, maybe). It was a total team effort, and while I still think Giguere deserved the Conn Smythe because of the Detroit series (the only time they actually needed a player to step up, even though it was a 6 game series that saw them win 3 straight to close it), the fact that he missed an entire series meant that there was really no standout on the roster outside of the surprise offense of the third line as a whole- but that's no reason to downplay Selanne. Selanne's even-strength offensive contribution was level with his regular season numbers; the difference was that he was covered on the powerplay, and instead of scoring at a 25 powerplay goal pace, he became their powerplay assist leader instead. He did adapt. For heaven's sake, he was only two points behind Getzlaf, who is pretty good; it's not a big deal!

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02-22-2011, 12:30 AM
  #67
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That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled.
Another one making **** up.

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02-22-2011, 01:37 AM
  #68
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Every great player draws extra attention, especially on the powerplay and in the playoffs. It doesn't stop most of them from scoring. I mean, honestly, that has to be the worst argument, EVER. Selanne was an elite forward, among the top ten in the NHL in his prime, but was always a mediocre playoff performer. That's the difference between him and Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, and Jagr, among others from that era.




If your son was born with a deformed eye, you would probably struggle too. That is why Giguere missed most the first three games of the first round. He returned for Game 4, struggled mightily, and was pulled. Carlyle stuck with him for Game 5, and he played every game the rest of the way, playing very well. It wasn't 2003, but it was a far greater contribution than Selanne's, which consisted of 6 points in 6 games against Detroit, and 9 points in the other 15 games spanning three series.
Well if you watched the playoffs you would have seen Selanne was getting ridiculous coverage on the PP. His PP production dropped, but his EV production stayed the same as the regular season. He didn't score a single PP goal in 07. He was the best PP scorer in the league at the time(and still is this season too).

In his prime(22-30yo) he got to play in 21 playoffs games and scored(13 goals) at a rate only Lemieux could match in that time period(93-99).

Under 30 years old(prime):

1992-93 6gp 4g 2a 6pts
1996-97 11gp 7g 3a 10pts (There's Paul Kariya & Teemu Selanne then there's Brian Bellows & Joe Sacco... Pretty easy to shut down)
1998-99 4gp 2g 2a 4pts

21 gp 13g 7a 20pts (51 goals per 82gp)

30-33 yo (The knee years)

00-01 6gp 0g 2a 2pts (He played with a broken wrist and a broken thumb and had a minor knee surgery a month before the playoffs to remove a loose ligament)
01-02 12gp 5g 3a 8pts (the knee + the defensive system of San Jose)
03-04 10gp 0g 3a 3pts (The knee was so bad that he was thinking about ending his career. He played on the 3rd and 4th lines)

28gp 5g 7a 12pts

35-36 yo (The comeback)

05-06 16gp 6g 8a 14pts (1st in pts)
06-07 21gp 5g 10a 15pts (2nd in pts)

37gp 11g 18a 29pts (most by any Duck during the 2 year period by 5 points)

37-39 yo (Back from retirement)

07-08 6gp 2g 2a 4pts (The whole team sucked. Getzlaf and Pronger had 5pts. Selanne played with Weight who had 1 assist)
08-09 13gp 4g 2a 6pts (There's not much you can do if your linemates are Eric Christensen and Andrew Ebbett)

19gp 6g 4a 10pts

Selanne got to play 21 playoff games in his prime.


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02-22-2011, 07:46 AM
  #69
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And just in case people get nitpicky, the hockey Gods still owe Selanne two playoff goals for his backhand roofjob on Calgary in Game 6 of 2006 that was waved off for goaltender interference after the puck went into the net and the play in which Marty Turco checked him in the 2008 Dallas series while he had an open net.

I just don't get people that don't understand how little playoff hockey he got to play from 1993-1999, when he was more than a powerplay specialist. Do people even remember his only series as a Jet? They lost in 6 games, Selanne scored both GWGs, and broke out for a hat trick in his first home game. How about his first series as a Mighty Duck, when he made a tape-to-tape lob pass to Kariya over two blue-lines in overtime? Yeah, Detroit checked him pretty well in 1997 and 1999, the only other playoff hockey of his prime (both sweeps), but they were kinda in the middle of a 9-series winning streak!

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02-22-2011, 08:12 AM
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There is a serious age gap here. To be old enough to have watched Kurri in his prime, you have to have been watching a steady diet of NHL hockey from 1980 or 1981 through about 1987 or so. That makes you at least 35-40 years old.

Most who did so will state that he's simply going to come out the better player. If you're a little younger, and if your earliest hockey memories are from the early- to mid-1990s, you probably remember Selanne more fondly. If you're 20 years old, I'm not honestly sure how you can have an opinion on this one. You've only watched one of these players.

Case in point, many who laud Selanne for his international efforts (and he's been great in international play) fail to mention that Kurri was also a very strong international player.

History of hockey questions always become colored by the degree to which you can gauge performance from stats and anecdotal evidence. It isn't easy to evaluate a player like a Nels Stewart, someone none of us had the opportunity to watch in his prime (and very few at all). You have to come up with different metrics, different criteria, but that comes with the territory.

Yet there is a real minefield when you start comparing someone from a bygone era (Kurri now starts to qualify) with someone who is currently playing, and whose career stretches back over the last 15-20 years only. Large portions of the fan base remember Selanne fondly from personal experience, vividly. In such a case, you are comparing a guy the kids have never/rarely seen with someone they have seen recently, and can see today. Beware.

Most who have seen them both, or most who can step back a bit, dispassionately, are going to have Kurri ahead of Selanne, however great the latter's career has been in both NHL and international play.

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02-22-2011, 10:04 AM
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You can't go wrong with either player, but I think Kurri's having more cups puts him over the edge. Still both are solid players and will be considered the top 2 Fins of all-time for a long time.

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02-22-2011, 10:08 AM
  #72
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Tikkanen all the way!!!

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02-22-2011, 02:30 PM
  #73
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There is a serious age gap here. To be old enough to have watched Kurri in his prime, you have to have been watching a steady diet of NHL hockey from 1980 or 1981 through about 1987 or so. That makes you at least 35-40 years old.

Most who did so will state that he's simply going to come out the better player. If you're a little younger, and if your earliest hockey memories are from the early- to mid-1990s, you probably remember Selanne more fondly. If you're 20 years old, I'm not honestly sure how you can have an opinion on this one. You've only watched one of these players.

Case in point, many who laud Selanne for his international efforts (and he's been great in international play) fail to mention that Kurri was also a very strong international player.

History of hockey questions always become colored by the degree to which you can gauge performance from stats and anecdotal evidence. It isn't easy to evaluate a player like a Nels Stewart, someone none of us had the opportunity to watch in his prime (and very few at all). You have to come up with different metrics, different criteria, but that comes with the territory.

Yet there is a real minefield when you start comparing someone from a bygone era (Kurri now starts to qualify) with someone who is currently playing, and whose career stretches back over the last 15-20 years only. Large portions of the fan base remember Selanne fondly from personal experience, vividly. In such a case, you are comparing a guy the kids have never/rarely seen with someone they have seen recently, and can see today. Beware.

Most who have seen them both, or most who can step back a bit, dispassionately, are going to have Kurri ahead of Selanne, however great the latter's career has been in both NHL and international play.
That's not the issue in the Selanne/Kurri debate on HOH (I've been in at least three of these). The issue is always to what extent does Selanne's 2000-2004 leg issues and inability to build a playoff resume detract from his career. Everyone is pretty much in agreement in regard to Jari Kurri's placement in the historical context. The problem is that some dock Selanne so much so that he's outside their Top 120, whereas others question how with his peak, prime, and longevity that he's kept outside the Top 60-65. He's a very polarizing player on this board.

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02-22-2011, 03:16 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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is it time to play the bure card?

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02-22-2011, 04:34 PM
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IggyFan12
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Who would be the 3rd greatest Finnish NHL'er??

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