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Old
02-14-2011, 05:50 PM
  #26
Bobby Lou
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Not much to add on top of the observations already made, but I agree that we're hopefully in the Reasoner hunt seriously. His value isn't outrageous I wouldn't think based on these deals

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02-14-2011, 05:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
Huh?? Take a look at their last 7 drafts outside of their first round selections and tell me you still think that is true. They have a great college scouting contingent thats making up for their poor selections.

Again, i ask the question, why should this prompt Gillis to make a move or a trade? We are going to respond to match a team we may or may not face in the playoffs? Who and what space do we even have? This isn't a chess or checkers game.
1st round picks are still picks. Jeff Carter, Mike Richards and Claude Giroux is a pretty nice haul for an 11th, 22nd and 24th overall pick. That's your entire offensive foundation with mid to late 1st round picks...

Why should Mike Gillis make a move? Because the West is as wide open as it's ever been, our core is in it's prime and this is the best chance the Canucks have had to win a cup in it's 40 year history. If you can upgrade the team, you absolutely do it. If that means saying goodbye to a good prospect like Schroeder or Sauve, so be it.

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02-14-2011, 05:53 PM
  #28
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The Canucks are already capstrated so not much room to acquire salary without moving some out.

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Old
02-14-2011, 05:59 PM
  #29
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How bush league does it make Brian Burke look when he signs or trades for guys like Beauchemin and Versteeg only to turn around and unload them within 2 years? No longterm vision whatsoever. What does this say about Kris Versteeg? Nobody wants to hold onto this kid.

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02-14-2011, 06:00 PM
  #30
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I don't think this move makes the Flyers any more impressive. They already have an impressive group of offensive players and players known to show up in the playoffs (Richards, Giroux, Briere, Leino etc. all step it up). What this looks like to me is injury insurance. It'll keep them as a well-oiled machine, but doesn't scream over the top to me at all.

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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
How bush league does it make Brian Burke look when he signs or trades for guys like Beauchemin and Versteeg only to turn around and unload them within 2 years? No longterm vision whatsoever. What does this say about Kris Versteeg? Nobody wants to hold onto this kid.

Brian Burke is known as one of the most loyal and friendly managers inside the game and out. I don't think he's worried about that. At the same time, this is likely just an outcome of the salary cap and the ramifications of it. You had a third liner who you likely believed would translate into a top-six winger making a salary worthy of top six play and he wasn't earning it. The onus is on Versteeg as well, and Burke likely felt that Versteeg had opportunities to shape up and contribute to the team but never took the step. You can't have a third liner making that kind of money in this league who isn't playing up to his value.

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02-14-2011, 06:05 PM
  #31
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The Gillis plan includes adding three top four d-men before the playoffs.

And team chemistry won't be adversley affected when Edler, Hamhuis and Ballard are on the playing roster.

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02-14-2011, 06:08 PM
  #32
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Hmm... if I'm the Flyers what does my team need? I know, another generic two-way winger to bounce between my second and third line. And hey... why not mortgage the future by trading a first and a third to get this player. Brilliant!

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02-14-2011, 06:08 PM
  #33
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While I don't think this really pushes the Flyers over the top given their depth, you can never discount the value of trading for a 24yo who plays every forward position, PP, PKs, and has scored 20 goals in the last two seasons (and is on pace to do so again, despite having a "poor" season), especially for a late 1st and a 3rd. Not bad asset management, considering Burke pretty much only gave up Stalberg for him, although perhaps its just me, but you keep a young-ish player like Versteeg when rebuilding.

All in all, Philly is going for it now, so the 1st really doesn't matter too much right now. Pronger\Timonen aren't getting any younger. I will however, laugh very hard if this makes them lose Leino.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:08 PM
  #34
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Brian Burke is known as one of the most loyal and friendly managers inside the game and out. I don't think he's worried about that. At the same time, this is likely just an outcome of the salary cap and the ramifications of it. You had a third liner who you likely believed would translate into a top-six winger making a salary worthy of top six play and he wasn't earning it. The onus is on Versteeg as well, and Burke likely felt that Versteeg had opportunities to shape up and contribute to the team but never took the step. You can't have a third liner making that kind of money in this league who isn't playing up to his value.
Versteeg played 19:00 a night and is on pace for a career high in points - if Burke expected anything more out of him than he's getting right now it's poor judgement on his part.

Again, this looks bad on Brian Burke. It shows a lack of vision and a case where he didn't do his due diligence on the player before he acquired him.

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02-14-2011, 06:12 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
1st round picks are still picks. Jeff Carter, Mike Richards and Claude Giroux is a pretty nice haul for an 11th, 22nd and 24th overall pick. That's your entire offensive foundation with mid to late 1st round picks...

Why should Mike Gillis make a move? Because the West is as wide open as it's ever been, our core is in it's prime and this is the best chance the Canucks have had to win a cup in it's 40 year history. If you can upgrade the team, you absolutely do it. If that means saying goodbye to a good prospect like Schroeder or Sauve, so be it.
So a scouting team should be evaluated based on solely their 1st round selections? Hakan Andersson, you sir a marginal scout because all you ever do is find good players in the later rounds. Find us something good in the first round and then we'll sing your praises.

Lets take a deeper look at selections from the 2nd to 7ths or 9th round....

2003 - 1/9 players has played more than 50 NHL games.
2004 - 0/11 players has played more than 50 NHL games.
2005 - 1/5 players has played more than 50 NHL games.
2006 - 1/9 players has played more than 50 NHL games.
2007 - 0/6 players has played more than 50 NHL games.

One of those players did not even suit up for the Flyers. Only 2 remain and are marginal players - Nodl and Bartulis.

The West is as wide as ever? We are sitting on a 7 point lead in first place with very few teams with games in hand on us. Why do we have to be so reactionary to a trade in the East if Gillis is concerned about the West being wide open? It just seems people are making knee jerk reactions as if Philly's move put us on a cliff and if we don't make a move we are pretty much falling to our death. Seems a bit absurd to me.

Sure if we can make our team better at a reasonable price, then sure by all means. But this move should not have to provide more motivation to make a move.

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02-14-2011, 06:12 PM
  #36
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Brian Burke is known as one of the most loyal and friendly managers inside the game and out.
I'm sure Peter Zezel felt that loyalty.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:13 PM
  #37
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Hmm... if I'm the Flyers what does my team need? I know, another generic two-way winger to bounce between my second and third line. And hey... why not mortgage the future by trading a first and a third to get this player. Brilliant!
Yeah, it's not like it would be smarter to acquire Vokoun for that same price. Who needs a proven Top 5 goaltender when you can have more of the same...

Honestly, thinking about it more, just seems like an incredibly dumb move why do you want to go into the playoffs with untested goaltending, yet again, when you have the assets and cap space to acquire a top goalie?

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02-14-2011, 06:13 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Versteeg played 19:00 a night and is on pace for a career high in points - if Burke expected anything more out of him than he's getting right now it's poor judgement on his part.

Again, this looks bad on Brian Burke. It shows a lack of vision and a case where he didn't do his due diligence on the player before he acquired him.
Agreed. And it makes me wonder whether Burke even has a plan to build the Leafs. First it was quick turnaround, adding guys with playoff and cup experience...and then abandoning that so he can look good at the draft by regaining a 1st round pick.

I imagine Burke will make lots of noise about trading up at that same draft...all the while trying to smooth over the horrible Kessel fiasco.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:14 PM
  #39
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What a nightmare that "SC contender" thread is... can't believe I'm participating. Don't even care if we're a contender but stuff like Nashville having better forward depth than us...
Yeah it's a mess.

Nashville out in 6 games > Vancouver out in 6 games

therefore

Nashville >>>> Vancouver. The amount of illogic is sickening.

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02-14-2011, 06:21 PM
  #40
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Reading the main board is dumb. I actually ignore all forums in HFB except Prospects, Intl Hockey, Canucks and Entertainment.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:24 PM
  #41
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The amount of anti-Canucks bias is just staggering. I suppose it's to be expected (and I guess we have a few rogue agents running around the main boards spouting off nonsense), but I've been pretty shocked this year with some of the stuff I've read. The most recent was an apparent campaign by Sharks fans to label us 'the next San Jose Sharks'; personally I don't think you can really make those sort of comparisons with completely different teams and rosters, but maybe that's just me.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:25 PM
  #42
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So a scouting team should be evaluated based on solely their 1st round selections?

It just seems people are making knee jerk reactions as if Philly's move put us on a cliff and if we don't make a move we are pretty much falling to our death. Seems a bit absurd to me.
You look at the draft as a whole - you don't exclude 1st round picks or 4th round picks or 6th round picks. Carter, Richards and Giroux is an excellent trio of offensive players in a relative short period of time. Then again I put much more stock in the quality of players you draft than the quantity that play in the NHL. With how the CBA is layed out I don't value depth players that highly - they're easily acquired through trade and free agency.

I think your imagination is getting the best of you here - not a single fan on this entire site has led anyone to believe at any point 'we're falling to our death' if we don't upgrade the team.

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02-14-2011, 06:30 PM
  #43
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The Flyers should have upgraded their goaltending. Sure, Boucher and Bobrovsky have played well for them, but if they were going to spend a 1st and a 3rd that is their area of greatest weakness in the playoffs.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:33 PM
  #44
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The Flyers should have upgraded their goaltending. Sure, Boucher and Bobrovsky have played well for them, but if they were going to spend a 1st and a 3rd that is their area of greatest weakness in the playoffs.
As I said above, for that kind of price they could easily acquire Vokoun and it would be a much smarter move.

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02-14-2011, 06:37 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
You look at the draft as a whole - you don't exclude 1st round picks or 4th round picks or 6th round picks. Carter, Richards and Giroux is an excellent trio of offensive players in a relative short period of time. Then again I put much more stock in the quality of players you draft than the quantity that play in the NHL. With how the CBA is layed out I don't value depth players that highly - they're easily acquired through trade and free agency.

I think your imagination is getting the best of you here - not a single fan on this entire site has led anyone to believe at any point 'we're falling to our death' if we don't upgrade the team.
You can't just look at 3 selections and say Philly has a good scouting department, just as i can't just look at rounds 2-9. Same difference. You have to look at the whole draft as well.

I don't know, i feel the late rounds are just as important. Is Hansen any less valuable since he was selected in the 9th round? A type of guy we could have had through a trade or free agency? The Canucks don't have a good track record from rounds 2-9 either in those years. And i think we can all agree we wouldn't say that the Nucks had a good scouting department then, which is why i wouldn't say Philly does either.

Sure, we're not falling off a cliff but we are holding a ticking time bomb and we're running out of time. That may be a better analogy. 4 separate posters...

"The Canucks are on the clock now"
"Its time for Mike Gillis to step up to the plate"
"Its time for Gillis to match"
"Gillis' turn to make a move."

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:39 PM
  #46
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As I said above, for that kind of price they could easily acquire Vokoun and it would be a much smarter move.
They might not be done, though. Maybe they'll move out another forward for a goalie?

I still don't know what Toronto expected Kris Versteeg to do for them. But hey, they got what's probably going to be the 29th pick. A first rounder.

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Old
02-14-2011, 06:40 PM
  #47
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As I said above, for that kind of price they could easily acquire Vokoun and it would be a much smarter move.
Well, it did work out for them last year. But most of the 5-8 contenders in the east have a goalie who, if he stands on his head, can steal a series from any team in the league. It's a big risk taking on those guys with Boucher/Bobrovsky.

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02-14-2011, 06:41 PM
  #48
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They might not be done, though. Maybe they'll move out another forward for a goalie?

I still don't know what Toronto expected Kris Versteeg to do for them. But hey, they got what's probably going to be the 29th pick. A first rounder.
Perhaps, but they were in a perfect position prior to this trade as they actually had the cap space, now they'll have to move a couple of players to fit Vokoun in.

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Well, it did work out for them last year. But most of the 5-8 contenders in the east have a goalie who, if he stands on his head, can steal a series from any team in the league. It's a big risk taking on those guys with Boucher/Bobrovsky.
Worked out to an extent. They lost in the final.

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02-14-2011, 06:48 PM
  #49
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Worked out to an extent. They lost in the final.
I'll call that a win for a team that wouldn't have even made the playoffs if they were in our conference.

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02-14-2011, 06:50 PM
  #50
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How bush league does it make Brian Burke look when he signs or trades for guys like Beauchemin and Versteeg only to turn around and unload them within 2 years? No longterm vision whatsoever. What does this say about Kris Versteeg? Nobody wants to hold onto this kid.
The plan is to not have a plan?

Bruce Arthur of the National Post did a piece on Burke recently titled "Unsure in the Saddle".

Im not running this team on the basis that this team will or wont [make the playoffs], he said. Im running this team on the same blueprint of how can we keep adding assets that will lead to a championship. (MY NOTE - conveniently forgetting his pronouncements over the last couple of seasons about the play-offs being a goal - but hey this is Burkie after all)

When you consider Burkes work in Toronto, the striking part is not so much that he is impatient as it is that he has been wrong. He has overestimated player after player, and his team more than once. Hes just whiffed.

Maybe he can do it, though, if he tries enough times. Maybe he can pull the stagecoach back onto the right path.
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...#ixzz1Dz4ywhQA

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