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Arpon Basu - PG should do nothing

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Old
02-16-2011, 02:33 PM
  #76
Miller Time
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I agree...

Only trades should be with future in mind...

- moving a bad contract and/or player the organization deems expendable (Gomez, spacek, a.kost?)
- major deal to acquire key building block type player


If anything, I'd be happier seeing the team move a pending ufa we don't intend on re-signing for picks/prospects then the opposite.

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02-16-2011, 02:41 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Before you add Kovalev though, I think you need to survey guys likev Plekanec, Gorges, Markov, Gomez, Gio, Gill and Cammy to see if he would fit in the team dynamics. As a guy that is a big different and was here before there is the risk of causing certain rifts in the room if things are not done properly.
Yeah like I said, up to an evaluation by coaches & front office (Gauthier/Gainey).

Could a line like Patches-Gomez-Kovalev work? Pretty hard to say. Could be dynamite, or a flop...

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02-16-2011, 02:42 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I agree...

Only trades should be with future in mind...

- moving a bad contract and/or player the organization deems expendable (Gomez, spacek, a.kost?)
- major deal to acquire key building block type player


If anything, I'd be happier seeing the team move a pending ufa we don't intend on re-signing for picks/prospects then the opposite.
So in other words the whole post, you want the Habs to be sellers at the deadline.

Moving out bad contracts
Pending UFA's
Bring in youth and picks

Buyers take on what you want the Habs to move out. TSN listed us as buyers, which doesn't bother me in anyway if we are buyers or sellers.

But your idea is to be sellers this year and look forward to make the playoffs with what we will have if we sell off, then look to next year when we have 2 of our big players on the backend back in Markov and Gorges. The lineup stays healthy and go from there. This could work. I think its a route to look at but I don't want to be in "full" sell mode really, come deadline. I think we will be staying status quo though. We will need pieces to add if we want to do major damage in the playoffs.

It just sucks because of our injuries. We were a team to be contending in the East. We were listed as possible repeaters of last season. Now with the injuries its like we took a step back this year and not trying to get there right now, because our star players are out.

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02-16-2011, 02:50 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Yeah like I said, up to an evaluation by coaches & front office (Gauthier/Gainey).

Could a line like Patches-Gomez-Kovalev work? Pretty hard to say. Could be dynamite, or a flop...
like I said in the trade thread

AK-Plek-Kovalev need at least a try because if they work again other teams will have problem matching the good D against us

Gionta-Gomez-Cammalleri with another good line these guys would be a very dangerous line

Pacs-Desh-Pouliot A 3rd line who can score goals, Pacs and Desh have already alot of chemistry

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02-16-2011, 02:52 PM
  #80
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Too late. Boston traded a second round draft pick for Neil.. so the price was a little high considering the Habs didn't even have one to counter offer.
I think you are confusing Kelly with Neil.
Kelly to Boston for a second round yesterday. Neil still available.

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02-16-2011, 03:16 PM
  #81
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Yhea. The issues is that 4 of our top 6 D-men are injured, including 2 of our top 3.

And we happen to have Gomez.

That's about it. It's not a catastrophic scenario, as starting next year, we happen to expect everybody to be back in full health.
You sure Markov will be back? I'm not. Plus, he's been injury prone. Knee injuries can be fatal. And the injury problems have been with this club for 2 seasons now. Mostly because we are a small unit, that's taking a beating like you can't believe. We need size.

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02-16-2011, 03:22 PM
  #82
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agree and dont

besides philly, i believe habs can rival anyone in the east in a 7 game series.

d/t injuries and some very incomplete teams, the East is wide open

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02-16-2011, 03:23 PM
  #83
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Waiting, waiting, schmaiting. You guys would flip if our GM was Homlgren, right? You prefer prospects to real time NHL players...I guess it's the HFBoards syndrom...

Philly never wait. They go after. And that's why they're the best team in the league with Vancouver. And we're not that much better than last year (marred by injuries too).

We need size. It's obvious to the blind.

Don't sell the farm club (well, there's not much left to sell anyways). But you can't tell me you're confident to go into the playoffs with the actual lineup. Impossible.

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02-16-2011, 03:25 PM
  #84
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You said the magic word: Philly. That's who we need to beat. And right now, we don't have the tools to do so. Will we be able to get them in the next two weeks? I doubt it. NOt all of them. But there are certain players available right now that could prove to be efficient in the years to come, as ACTUAL NHL players.

And stop with the 'we should be sellers' (not you Brewers, but others here). That's Expos-like mentality. Not Habs-like.

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02-16-2011, 03:26 PM
  #85
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Holmgren is an average GM at best. They have had a huge hole in nets for years and he's failed miserably to fill it each year, last year they almost missed the playoffs because of band aid goaltending.

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02-16-2011, 03:51 PM
  #86
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I agree that nothing drastic should be made, but at least get some toughness, I don't wanna see other teams mimic what Boston did to us, we need to go geat Neal or Konopka, and I doubt it would be more than a 3rd pick to get either.

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02-16-2011, 04:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
You said the magic word: Philly. That's who we need to beat. And right now, we don't have the tools to do so. Will we be able to get them in the next two weeks? I doubt it. NOt all of them. But there are certain players available right now that could prove to be efficient in the years to come, as ACTUAL NHL players.

And stop with the 'we should be sellers' (not you Brewers, but others here). That's Expos-like mentality. Not Habs-like.
So what exactly is your plan? Trade Gomez & GIonta for Getzlaf and Perry?? Dang why didn't Gauthier think of that?

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02-16-2011, 05:36 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
Waiting, waiting, schmaiting. You guys would flip if our GM was Homlgren, right? You prefer prospects to real time NHL players...I guess it's the HFBoards syndrom...

Philly never wait. They go after. And that's why they're the best team in the league with Vancouver. And we're not that much better than last year (marred by injuries too).

We need size. It's obvious to the blind.

Don't sell the farm club (well, there's not much left to sell anyways). But you can't tell me you're confident to go into the playoffs with the actual lineup. Impossible.
I was tempted to post something similar for a few days now. So sick of that "let's wait" attitude. Been waiting for 15+ years and people always say the same thing: "Don't panic, let's prepare the youth for next year". That's a loser attitude. Holmgrem isn't known for getting good goalies but that doesn't stop them from being the best in the east and top 2 in the league (if no 1st). I'm not saying it'll be an easy thing to do, just saying that due to all the key injuries and the huge lack of size, PG should at least try to make the team more competitive. I'm sure he,s working on it right now, but is he aggressive enough? I doubt it.

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02-16-2011, 05:45 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Quarantesix View Post
like I said in the trade thread

AK-Plek-Kovalev need at least a try because if they work again other teams will have problem matching the good D against us

Gionta-Gomez-Cammalleri with another good line these guys would be a very dangerous line

Pacs-Desh-Pouliot A 3rd line who can score goals, Pacs and Desh have already alot of chemistry
I think we should make a trade and package AK off somewhere for whatever. And pickup Konopka and Phillips as well as Kovalev.

Not sure we have enough bullets to get Richards and simultaneously dump Gomez.


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Old
02-16-2011, 06:02 PM
  #90
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I can't believe reading posts from people who berated me for wanting to rebuild and who now want to stand pat. Wow... I'm flabbergasted.

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02-16-2011, 06:04 PM
  #91
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I agree that really, we shouldn't be looking at band-aids or pure rentals. PG should look to deal to address the roster for seasons moving forward, whether by dumping unwanted contracts or bringing in guys that could be here for a couple of years.

The way I see it, as of now, our line-up looks something like this for next season:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
TOP 6 LW - TOP 6 C - Cammalleri
Pouliot - Desharnais - White
BOT 6 LW - Engqvist - Moen

#1 D - Subban
TOP 4 - Gorges
DEF D - Weber

Price
BACKUP

Of course, we have some other guys under contract (Gomez, Spacek, RFA Kostitsyn) and Engqvist is more of a feeling on my part that he will earn that spot for next season. But the ones I left blank are ones I feel may need to be changed (or are UFA) for us to contend. The names penciled I'm perfectly happy to go to war with. If Gauthier can move to fill in one of the blanks with an upgrade, then I'm sure he will.

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Old
02-16-2011, 06:15 PM
  #92
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I can't believe reading posts from people who berated me for wanting to rebuild and who now want to stand pat. Wow... I'm flabbergasted.
Are you really that flabbergasted? You're a vet here, you should realize by now that habs fans are bi-polar in their preferences in regards to the team.

As for your rebuild idea. I don't think it is necessary. We have very nice pieces in Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Markov(if he resigns) and Plekanec moving forward and if Eller continues to develop he'll be a nice addition to the core. I know the essential argument is that if you have no star, you will not go far etc. IMO, we have our stars already with Price and Subban(you could add Markov, I really hope re-signs), the only thing we don't have is an offensive winger, in the sense where he does not really on another player to get him going, a winger who can create his own scoring chances and do so consistently. It's really all we're missing essentially core wise, depth wise is a different story, this comes from strategic signings and trades imo.

The Flyers drafted core is composed of Richards, Carter and Giroux. But their other big guns ala Pronger, Timonen, Hartnell, Briere have been acquired through trades and signings.

Our core is only different from other teams cores because it lacks the top end talent on offense.

I really do feel like we are just one forward away from being competitive for a few years especially if we re-sign Markov(although he is getting older), especially given the emergence of Pacioretty and assuming Pouliot continues to develop.

We have 30 million next year to spend to re-do our defense, this is key. I also feel as though this trade deadline if we overpay by just a little bit that we could snag a more consistent top 6 winger that will definitely be of help in the future.

So in short I don't feel like a rebuild is necessary at all because we have some really good pieces already and that is why we've been able to be competitive this year despite 3 key injuries. I really do think we are a lot better than what we are portayed as and I think we are a couple of moves from being in the top tier of the league and I really don't think we need a rebuild to reach this, only a couple of smart moves.

All that being said, I think we should take the opportunity this deadline to improve our top 6 because I really do feel like there are a couple of gems that could be had this deadline...Booth comes to mind. If he's available I'd make a strong push. He'd fit well in our system and I don't feel his talents have been exploited in Florida.

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02-16-2011, 06:19 PM
  #93
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I don't think we should be getting rentals(like for example, no Arnott/Kovalev) but we do need to address some issues going forward, size/grit/toughness/whatever you want to call it being one of them. Neil would be a good option, he's still under contract for next year, maybe a guy like Tuomo Ruutu if Carolina is willing to move him, he's a nice mix of size, grit, and talent, but a major overhaul is not needed in any case. This team has good young players to build around at all positions, some tweaks are needed to make the team more balanced and that's what PG has to look at, no need to blow the whole thing up and no need to "load up" for a long playoff run. Stay the course, but improve the areas you need to gradually when given the chance.

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02-16-2011, 06:21 PM
  #94
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Are you really that flabbergasted? You're a vet here, you should realize by now that habs fans are bi-polar in their preferences in regards to the team.

As for your rebuild idea. I don't think it is necessary. We have very nice pieces in Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Markov(if he resigns) and Plekanec moving forward and if Eller continues to develop he'll be a nice addition to the core. I know the essential argument is that if you have no star, you will not go far etc. IMO, we have our stars already with Price and Subban(you could add Markov, I really hope re-signs), the only thing we don't have is an offensive winger, in the sense where he does not really on another player to get him going, a winger who can create his own scoring chances and do so consistently. It's really all we're missing essentially core wise, depth wise is a different story, this comes from strategic signings and trades imo.

The Flyers drafted core is composed of Richards, Carter and Giroux. But their other big guns ala Pronger, Timonen, Hartnell, Briere have been acquired through trades and signings.

Our core is only different from other teams cores because it lacks the top end talent on offense.

I really do feel like we are just one forward away from being competitive for a few years especially if we re-sign Markov(although he is getting older), especially given the emergence of Pacioretty and assuming Pouliot continues to develop.

We have 30 million next year to spend to re-do our defense, this is key. I also feel as though this trade deadline if we overpay by just a little bit that we could snag a more consistent top 6 winger that will definitely be of help in the future.

So in short I don't feel like a rebuild is necessary at all because we have some really good pieces already and that is why we've been able to be competitive this year despite 3 key injuries. I really do think we are a lot better than what we are portayed as and I think we are a couple of moves from being in the top tier of the league and I really don't think we need a rebuild to reach this, only a couple of smart moves.

All that being said, I think we should take the opportunity this deadline to improve our top 6 because I really do feel like there are a couple of gems that could be had this deadline...Booth comes to mind. If he's available I'd make a strong push. He'd fit well in our system and I don't feel his talents have been exploited in Florida.
I never said we should be rebuilding right now. I was for a rebuild before Gainey's crazy spending spree. Obviously, it's not the time anymore. Rebuilding would be impossible anyway considering the terms certain player are signed to.

In fact, since we are where we are and in the position that we are, I wish the habs would try very hard to add the missing pieces to go as deep as possible. Standing pat is just the worst thing we could do, it basically means we're just writing this year off.

This is why I'm shocked that everyone who said rebuilding was not an option are now saying they'd rather the habs stand pat. I don't get it.

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02-16-2011, 06:30 PM
  #95
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I never said we should be rebuilding right now. I was for a rebuild before Gainey's crazy spending spree. Obviously, it's not the time anymore. Rebuilding would be impossible anyway considering the terms certain player are signed to.

In fact, since we are where we are and in the position that we are, I wish the habs would try very hard to add the missing pieces to go as deep as possible. Standing pat is just the worst thing we could do, it basically means we're just writing this year off.

This is why I'm shocked that everyone who said rebuilding was not an option are now saying they'd rather the habs stand pat. I don't get it.
Yah I know what you mean. It's just the way people are I guess.

I wouldn't go all in this year just because we have 30 million in salary next year. A couple of key signings of defense could do this team a lot of good especially if Markov can stay healthy.

I feel like a move should still be made because like I said, I really think a gem could be had this deadline, even if a little costly like a Booth etc.

I really do think we have a great core moving forward though, better than we give our team credit for. I think some of the supporting cast to be a little iffy...Darche(even though doing well), Pyatt, Halpern, Gomez, Andrei, Spacek.

Like I said with the emergence of Pacioretty and the improvement of Pouliot we have a pretty decent core with Price, Subban, Markov(assuming he signs) Pacioretty, Plekanec, Pouliot.

I just think we are another Plekanec type player away from being in the top tier of the league. But these are not easy to come by, most likely need to draft this type of player. Let's hope Eller becomes that guy sooner than later, unless Desharnais is the real deal(looks like it right now).

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02-16-2011, 07:50 PM
  #96
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Booth comes to mind. If he's available I'd make a strong push. He'd fit well in our system and I don't feel his talents have been exploited in Florida.
Booth's concussion history scares me. Not sure I'd be willing to gamble on him unless he came really cheap.

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02-16-2011, 07:56 PM
  #97
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like I said in the trade thread

AK-Plek-Kovalev need at least a try because if they work again other teams will have problem matching the good D against us

Gionta-Gomez-Cammalleri with another good line these guys would be a very dangerous line

Pacs-Desh-Pouliot A 3rd line who can score goals, Pacs and Desh have already alot of chemistry
Weill, with the Gomez line you've put together one line that has already shown it doesn't work. On the Desharnais line you have two left wingers who have shown no ability to play the off wing. On the Pleks line, you have put two enigmas with our best forward.

I dunno... you might have nine decent fowards here but I really dislike the combinations you have put together.

One more thing. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but it seems like Kostitsyn puts up way more points playing right wing than left wing. It is the style of game he plays, he likes to come down the right side, make a little move to the inside and shoot the puck. I have no idea why we keep him on LW where he clearly doesn't play as well.

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02-16-2011, 07:57 PM
  #98
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So in other words the whole post, you want the Habs to be sellers at the deadline.

Moving out bad contracts
Pending UFA's
Bring in youth and picks

Buyers take on what you want the Habs to move out. TSN listed us as buyers, which doesn't bother me in anyway if we are buyers or sellers.

But your idea is to be sellers this year and look forward to make the playoffs with what we will have if we sell off, then look to next year when we have 2 of our big players on the backend back in Markov and Gorges. The lineup stays healthy and go from there. This could work. I think its a route to look at but I don't want to be in "full" sell mode really, come deadline. I think we will be staying status quo though. We will need pieces to add if we want to do major damage in the playoffs.

It just sucks because of our injuries. We were a team to be contending in the East. We were listed as possible repeaters of last season. Now with the injuries its like we took a step back this year and not trying to get there right now, because our star players are out.

I don't particularly like the "buyers/sellers" labels, which I think are more a product of networks trying to market the deadline media attraction then they are real terms that active GM's work with.

Some teams clearly are in a "win-now" mode and will look to move picks/prospects to add the 1-2 pieces they think might lead to a deeper playoff run/cup...

and a few teams firmly out of the playoff race will look to moving pending UFA's they don't intend on re-signing to get as much value in return as possible...

but in between, all the other teams in the league are moreso in a situation of continuing to build their roster. It may mean dumping a pending UFA in order to get assets in return for a player that isn't part of their future plans, or it may mean trading away assets to get another teams pending UFA whom they thing will complement their team in the short term & who they will likely try to sign in the offseason if the fit proves to be a good one.

for me, the Habs are/should be firmly in that middle group, and given the nature of our current roster and our cap implications, it makes more sense to me to add long-term assets as opposed to short term ones. Conversely, it makes more sense to hang on to long-term assets than it does to hang on to short-term assets.

Frankly, even with a healthy Gorges/Markov, I'd still feel pretty much the same way. While we would obviously have a much better chance at a deep playoff run, with the make-up of our team, and with Boston/Philly potentialy/likely in the way of a cup finals berth, I wouldn't like our chances in a 7-game series against either of them...

so for me as GM, I'd still be looking for opportunities to make long-term improvments to the roster, and with our cap situation being what it is, that requires shedding some of the contract "problems" we currently have.

Spacek and Gomez should have permanent "for sale" signs attached to them, and for
guys like Gill, Hamrlik and Halpern, while all have all been good for us, if they aren't in the long-term plans (in which case, extend them and move on to other concerns) imo it's better to get something for them then, ESPECIALLY at the deadline where a team may be willing to pay a premium for them, then to hang on to them and watch them walk away for nothing after a brief playoff run.

we did that throughout Gainey's tenure, and imo it is one of the biggest reasons that we got stuck in that '09 mess.

imagine the roster and trade possibilities we would've/would have if we had gotten "rivet-esque" returns for guys like Souray, Koivu, Kovalev, Ryder, Komisarek... even guys like Kostopoulos and Dandenault can generate decent returns if moved at the right time.

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02-16-2011, 08:03 PM
  #99
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Booth's concussion history scares me. Not sure I'd be willing to gamble on him unless he came really cheap.
I'd still take a chance. He's a really good hockey player who's talents are being wasted on that crap florida team. The guy has so much talent and he'd fit our team like a glove. He's an extremely hard worker and has great speed, good forechecker and wins most of his board battles. He isn't the biggest at 6'0, but he's tough as nails along the boards, like I said he usually comes out with the puck.

The only problem is he's a natural left wing and with pacioretty and Cammalleri it becomes a problem, but I'd really make a push for him.

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02-16-2011, 08:13 PM
  #100
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I never said we should be rebuilding right now. I was for a rebuild before Gainey's crazy spending spree. Obviously, it's not the time anymore. Rebuilding would be impossible anyway considering the terms certain player are signed to.

In fact, since we are where we are and in the position that we are, I wish the habs would try very hard to add the missing pieces to go as deep as possible. Standing pat is just the worst thing we could do, it basically means we're just writing this year off.

This is why I'm shocked that everyone who said rebuilding was not an option are now saying they'd rather the habs stand pat. I don't get it.
Even if you're right that's a lot of missing pieces, and some of these pieces are injured players so you would need to add UFA's-to-be. So it's alot to give up for an average team to become slightly above average but still not a contender.

I'm guessing it will be more a compromise of some sort, a minor move will be made that will help us, maybe get us to go one more round than we would have but not much more. Not saying that's what I'd do, just what I think will happen.

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