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Arpon Basu - PG should do nothing

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Old
02-16-2011, 07:35 PM
  #101
Redux91
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lol wow, reading that article was like reading my own mindset..

ive been saying over and over, nothing should happen, and i dont beleive anything will happen

let the kids get the experience

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Old
02-16-2011, 07:40 PM
  #102
TheBuriedHab
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I agree with him. Only move I'd make is a dump of Gomez if anyone would be interested. Or a Swap of AK for your top 6 forward. Other than that Its not the time to give up future assets for bandaids.

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02-16-2011, 07:44 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I don't particularly like the "buyers/sellers" labels, which I think are more a product of networks trying to market the deadline media attraction then they are real terms that active GM's work with.

Some teams clearly are in a "win-now" mode and will look to move picks/prospects to add the 1-2 pieces they think might lead to a deeper playoff run/cup...

and a few teams firmly out of the playoff race will look to moving pending UFA's they don't intend on re-signing to get as much value in return as possible...

but in between, all the other teams in the league are moreso in a situation of continuing to build their roster. It may mean dumping a pending UFA in order to get assets in return for a player that isn't part of their future plans, or it may mean trading away assets to get another teams pending UFA whom they thing will complement their team in the short term & who they will likely try to sign in the offseason if the fit proves to be a good one.

for me, the Habs are/should be firmly in that middle group, and given the nature of our current roster and our cap implications, it makes more sense to me to add long-term assets as opposed to short term ones. Conversely, it makes more sense to hang on to long-term assets than it does to hang on to short-term assets.

Frankly, even with a healthy Gorges/Markov, I'd still feel pretty much the same way. While we would obviously have a much better chance at a deep playoff run, with the make-up of our team, and with Boston/Philly potentialy/likely in the way of a cup finals berth, I wouldn't like our chances in a 7-game series against either of them...

so for me as GM, I'd still be looking for opportunities to make long-term improvments to the roster, and with our cap situation being what it is, that requires shedding some of the contract "problems" we currently have.

Spacek and Gomez should have permanent "for sale" signs attached to them, and for
guys like Gill, Hamrlik and Halpern, while all have all been good for us, if they aren't in the long-term plans (in which case, extend them and move on to other concerns) imo it's better to get something for them then, ESPECIALLY at the deadline where a team may be willing to pay a premium for them, then to hang on to them and watch them walk away for nothing after a brief playoff run.

we did that throughout Gainey's tenure, and imo it is one of the biggest reasons that we got stuck in that '09 mess.

imagine the roster and trade possibilities we would've/would have if we had gotten "rivet-esque" returns for guys like Souray, Koivu, Kovalev, Ryder, Komisarek... even guys like Kostopoulos and Dandenault can generate decent returns if moved at the right time.
I don't agree with this. We wouldn't get much of a return on any of those players and they are essential for any kind of playoff run we have. It's not like we aren't moving an overvalued asset like Souray. We don't have a Souray this year.

I wouldn't deal any more 1st and 2nd rounders. In that, Arpun is right on the money.

I'm assuming we could package something of lesser value for a Kovalev though. Maybe there are teams that would give a 2nd though, not sure. It would have happened by now if a team wanted him, I'm assuming.

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Old
02-16-2011, 07:51 PM
  #104
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agree and dont

besides philly, i believe habs can rival anyone in the east in a 7 game series.

d/t injuries and some very incomplete teams, the East is wide open
Can adding a couple of players through the deadline deals make this team capable of beating teams like Philly, Boston or the Western Conference Champion in a 7 game series?

I can't see it and I dont like losing a prospect defenseman for a rental player.

I say let's see what this team can do as is. Next year AK should be gone and replaced and the end of the Gomez deal will be one year closer.

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Old
02-16-2011, 08:03 PM
  #105
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
I don't agree with this. We wouldn't get much of a return on any of those players and they are essential for any kind of playoff run we have. It's not like we aren't moving an overvalued asset like Souray. We don't have a Souray this year.

I wouldn't deal any more 1st and 2nd rounders. In that, Arpun is right on the money.

I'm assuming we could package something of lesser value for a Kovalev though. Maybe there are teams that would give a 2nd though, not sure. It would have happened by now if a team wanted him, I'm assuming.
put it to you this way...

given the opportunity in the next two weeks would you trade Gill for MaxPac/Gorges?


Moving a Gill or Hamrlik would only make sense IF we were getting a good return (and we don't intend on re-signing them)... is there a team out there willing to move a 1st + prospect for one of them? Teams have given up as much or more in the past for reliable veteran UFA dmen (perhaps the most over-valued deadline asset).

I'd say it's at least worth finding out.

I'd be less inclined to move Hamrlik (both b/c he's more important to the current group getting into the playoffs and b/c I'm hoping we re-sign him at a reduced rate to play a bottom pairing role next season), but then again I'm also inclined to think that a team might be willing to give up a very solid package in return...

Hamrlik for SJ 1st + Mcginn/Petrecki/Doherty/Coyle... something like that would be a very good deal for us and hard to turn down.

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02-16-2011, 10:44 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
I don't particularly like the "buyers/sellers" labels, which I think are more a product of networks trying to market the deadline media attraction then they are real terms that active GM's work with.

Some teams clearly are in a "win-now" mode and will look to move picks/prospects to add the 1-2 pieces they think might lead to a deeper playoff run/cup...

and a few teams firmly out of the playoff race will look to moving pending UFA's they don't intend on re-signing to get as much value in return as possible...

but in between, all the other teams in the league are moreso in a situation of continuing to build their roster. It may mean dumping a pending UFA in order to get assets in return for a player that isn't part of their future plans, or it may mean trading away assets to get another teams pending UFA whom they thing will complement their team in the short term & who they will likely try to sign in the offseason if the fit proves to be a good one.

for me, the Habs are/should be firmly in that middle group, and given the nature of our current roster and our cap implications, it makes more sense to me to add long-term assets as opposed to short term ones. Conversely, it makes more sense to hang on to long-term assets than it does to hang on to short-term assets.

Frankly, even with a healthy Gorges/Markov, I'd still feel pretty much the same way. While we would obviously have a much better chance at a deep playoff run, with the make-up of our team, and with Boston/Philly potentialy/likely in the way of a cup finals berth, I wouldn't like our chances in a 7-game series against either of them...

so for me as GM, I'd still be looking for opportunities to make long-term improvments to the roster, and with our cap situation being what it is, that requires shedding some of the contract "problems" we currently have.

Spacek and Gomez should have permanent "for sale" signs attached to them, and for
guys like Gill, Hamrlik and Halpern, while all have all been good for us, if they aren't in the long-term plans (in which case, extend them and move on to other concerns) imo it's better to get something for them then, ESPECIALLY at the deadline where a team may be willing to pay a premium for them, then to hang on to them and watch them walk away for nothing after a brief playoff run.

we did that throughout Gainey's tenure, and imo it is one of the biggest reasons that we got stuck in that '09 mess.

imagine the roster and trade possibilities we would've/would have if we had gotten "rivet-esque" returns for guys like Souray, Koivu, Kovalev, Ryder, Komisarek... even guys like Kostopoulos and Dandenault can generate decent returns if moved at the right time.
Although I agree with your thinking, something has not come up in these discussions that I feel is important: Morale.

I am NOT making excuses, but I feel AK's play may have very well been affected by the feeling of not knowing his status in the month leading to the trade deadline.

You could argue that he should have worked his butt off up to January 1 to ensure he DID feel safe, but he was shuffled off Plek's line by JM and it hurt him...To a lesser extent, you could argue this insecurity may even be affecting Gomer as well.

Some stability is good for players and the team, and if every vet feels like he may be gone any given year, I believe this will be bad for morale and counterproductive.

I believe if we hold on to AK, (unless a great deal comes up) he may relax a little after the deadline and be better in March. Therefore I am not that anxious about the forwards, especially with the play of the kids lately.

All that said, I still think we need a vet stay at home rental for a 4th pick say, to eat minutes and improve the PK.

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Old
02-16-2011, 11:06 PM
  #107
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I wouldnt be surprised to see a minor move, but nothing drastic.

If you look at Gauthier's assets, he's already dealt the draft picks and I doubt he wants to part with the first rounder. I dont like the idea of parting ways with cap friendly young players like weber. Desharnais keeps proving himself and it looks like the best is yet to come. Pacioretty and Subban are universally considered untouchable. You certainly dont want to give up on eller already.

I wouldnt mind parting ways with white, maxwell, or carle, but lets face it, they aren't getting you anything significant in return.

So yeah, what does that leave you to play with as trade bait (and be realistic)? Perhaps you can see if any team is really high on akost, and work from there, otherwise, I dont see much else in play.

The team is headed in the right direction. You dont want to do anything stupid in the short term to stall the ship.

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Old
02-17-2011, 12:25 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
I don't agree with this. We wouldn't get much of a return on any of those players and they are essential for any kind of playoff run we have. It's not like we aren't moving an overvalued asset like Souray. We don't have a Souray this year.

I wouldn't deal any more 1st and 2nd rounders. In that, Arpun is right on the money.

I'm assuming we could package something of lesser value for a Kovalev though. Maybe there are teams that would give a 2nd though, not sure. It would have happened by now if a team wanted him, I'm assuming.
We got a 2nd+Gorges for Rivet. We didn't luck out on Gorges either, management knew how great he was.
We're talking about Rivet here. Koivu, Streit, Kovalev, Komisarek, Souray, heck even Ryder, were probably all more valuable than Rivet. But even if we just get a 2nd for Koivu. It's a 2nd rounder more that we'd have today. Add that prospect to the other prospects we could have had through deadline trades. I don't think I would have traded Koivu and Streit, but Kovalev, Ryder and Souray, I would gladly have tried to move. Komisarek is a question mark but I surely wouldn't have waited until the end of the season before knowing his intentions. If I wasn't confident in re-signing him, I would have entertained offers. If nothing too interesting was offered for him, I might take a crack at re-signing him. If negotiations still didn't go well, I'd sell his rights before July 1st to get the least bit of compensation possible.

In any event, we certainly could have ended up with a lot more picks/prospects than we had.

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02-17-2011, 12:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
We got a 2nd+Gorges for Rivet. We didn't luck out on Gorges either, management knew how great he was.
We're talking about Rivet here. Koivu, Streit, Kovalev, Komisarek, Souray, heck even Ryder, were probably all more valuable than Rivet. But even if we just get a 2nd for Koivu. It's a 2nd rounder more that we'd have today. Add that prospect to the other prospects we could have had through deadline trades. I don't think I would have traded Koivu and Streit, but Kovalev, Ryder and Souray, I would gladly have tried to move. Komisarek is a question mark but I surely wouldn't have waited until the end of the season before knowing his intentions. If I wasn't confident in re-signing him, I would have entertained offers. If nothing too interesting was offered for him, I might take a crack at re-signing him. If negotiations still didn't go well, I'd sell his rights before July 1st to get the least bit of compensation possible.

In any event, we certainly could have ended up with a lot more picks/prospects than we had.





gorges and a 1st for Rivet

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Old
02-17-2011, 05:28 PM
  #110
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No. No he won't. Bad idea written all over it.

Na-ah. Never. Don't risk Georges' knee for a stupid playoff run.

Make him play next fall, not a minute before.
I agree that players shouldn't be rushed back before they're ready but you make it sound as though the playoffs are silly and the regular season is where it's at. Don't forget, these players are competing for the Stanley Cup. That's the goal still, right?

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Old
02-17-2011, 05:37 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
I wouldnt be surprised to see a minor move, but nothing drastic.

If you look at Gauthier's assets, he's already dealt the draft picks and I doubt he wants to part with the first rounder. I dont like the idea of parting ways with cap friendly young players like weber. Desharnais keeps proving himself and it looks like the best is yet to come. Pacioretty and Subban are universally considered untouchable. You certainly dont want to give up on eller already.

I wouldnt mind parting ways with white, maxwell, or carle, but lets face it, they aren't getting you anything significant in return.

So yeah, what does that leave you to play with as trade bait (and be realistic)? Perhaps you can see if any team is really high on akost, and work from there, otherwise, I dont see much else in play.

The team is headed in the right direction. You dont want to do anything stupid in the short term to stall the ship.
I think the assets that PG might be willing to move for a rental are Maxwell and a 3rd or 4th, to me that would be for a pretty decent player like Brewer as a rental...maybe Winchester included.

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Old
02-17-2011, 05:41 PM
  #112
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IMO, Arpon isn't being realistic. Habs are poised for a playoff spot, and as a business, it would be just ridiculous not to try to make a good run for it, no matter if your MVP and 2nd best defensive D are out till next season.

People often forget that this is where most teams make their profit.

It's all fine and dandy to believe that the bottom line is to be patient, and that's why I still believe Gainey was good as PG is good, because they've both consistently had to ramp-up the talent on the team while still keeping up to their employe's responsibility for the business side of the game which is the present, not the future.


As a fan of the Habs, personally, I can understand sacrificing a bit of the future for the present on the ice, because of the inescapable need for us to have good profits to survive and accumulate financially for the future.

See the case of Burke who tried to do like Gainey but failed to even make the playoffs yet, although TO will always be financially sound.

The Habs have had some harsh financial times before, so that's why it's more an imperative for us.


EDIT: And to add to this, with so many young players on the team, it's important they do make a good playoff run to gain experience and put them into high pressure. This is a vital part of weeding out the talent, and improving the talent through the learning from mistakes, as with all players, even the ones who've won, they all end up losing in the playoffs one day or another, but the experience of it is what remains as the most important. It gives you a clearer picture of what you have and what you need for the future.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 02-17-2011 at 06:04 PM.
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Old
02-17-2011, 05:57 PM
  #113
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Disagree. Send the wrong message not adding, and this team is good.

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Old
02-17-2011, 06:16 PM
  #114
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I agree with him. Only move I'd make is a dump of Gomez if anyone would be interested. Or a Swap of AK for your top 6 forward. Other than that Its not the time to give up future assets for bandaids.
+1 here.. Move out AK and bring someone in this summer who has passion and also more consistency to go with it. And for the love of god, move out Gomez for ANYTHING. heck even send a 3rd pick along with him just so someone can take him off of us.

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Old
02-17-2011, 06:42 PM
  #115
Kriss E
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gorges and a 1st for Rivet
Indeed. Little mistake from lack of attention. Stupid infraction points is preventing me from editing my posts though, so couldn't fix it.

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02-17-2011, 07:10 PM
  #116
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I don't agree that PG should do nothing, but at the same time no reason to get sucked into a bad deal. If we can upgrade not only for this year but for the future, I would pull the trigger. But if the trade is for a rental, I won't be down.

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