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2010-2011 Rangers Prospects Thread (Juniors, NCAA, International, Other) *Part 4*

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03-02-2011, 04:17 PM
  #226
Bluenote13
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post


Exactly, same standard should be applied to other prospects if these "facts" are so important.
Cool, I'll let someone else do that. WTF, am I supposed to give info on every prospect? I don't have that kinda time

What I do have time for is to find more than just the points on the prospect I have the most reservations about. When I get that info I post it. My advice is deal with it.

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03-02-2011, 04:23 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Cool, I'll let someone else do that. WTF, am I supposed to give info on every prospect? I don't have that kinda time

What I do have time for is to find more than just the points on the prospect I have the most reservations about. When I get that info I post it. My advice is deal with it.
man are you ever missing the point... Perhaps if that's your stance now you should learnt o deal with being criticized for your obsession

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03-02-2011, 04:26 PM
  #228
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man are you ever missing the point... Perhaps if that's your stance now you should learnt o deal with being criticized for your obsession
What point am I missing?

I provide facts about his game, its Dylan's job to go out and prove the naysayers wrong. And as always, I hope he does, we need every valuable asset we can get.

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Old
03-02-2011, 04:28 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
The Rangers and Hurricanes are the only two teams to have not signed a single one of their 2009 draft picks.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=885301

Kreider, Werek, Bourque, Stajcer, Maggio, Pashnin are all up for contract. I imagine Stajcer and Maggio will be let go. Not sure on Pashnin.
Kreider doesnt have to sign yet as he is playing in the NCAA. I Imagine Werek and Bourque both definitley get signed. Pashnin will be signed when his contract with the KHL expires. Maggio and Stajcer are up for debate i imagine. I would think that Stajcer would get signed but we shall see what happens.

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03-02-2011, 05:04 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
We get people here every weekend that see Thomas, Kreider, Hagelin actually play and they give some detailed analysis,<b> but very little on Mcilrath.</b>
Have you ever actually been to Saskatchewan? I live in Alberta and its bad enough. Seriously though, you are simply going to get less coverage for a player who plays in a town of 32k. The lack of coverage (good or bad) shouldn't be an indictment on him as a player.

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03-02-2011, 05:19 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by TreeSapLlama View Post
Have you ever actually been to Saskatchewan? I live in Alberta and its bad enough. Seriously though, you are simply going to get less coverage for a player who plays in a town of 32k. The lack of coverage (good or bad) shouldn't be an indictment on him as a player.
No one ever said it was. All the more reason to present the facts on his game the best we can. If someone takes it as a negative than thats on them.

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03-02-2011, 05:57 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
By providing facts??

How is it not important that he has 2 PP points in his teams last 30 games !? The Shea Weber fans might want to now how his PP performance has been this year, no?
Every time I see that comparison/upside projection made on here I chuckle to myself. And then get depressed.

Either way I hardly think it is unfair to comment that his 2 assists were secondary against a pretty weak opponent. That matters.

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03-02-2011, 06:08 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by nyrfan444 View Post

Either way I hardly think it is unfair to comment that his 2 assists were secondary against a pretty weak opponent. That matters.
Kreider has 11 goals and 12 assists in 30 games this year... How many of those goals were against weak opponents? How many of those 12 assists were secondary? If it matters, let's talk about it... Because Kreider isn't tearing up the NCAA the way Hagelin is... Yet we see such high projections for Kreider at the NHL level... It works both ways, yet it only seems to matter for picks that people didn't like... Don't you agree? I doubt anyone will do a break down or analysis on how Kreider has scored his points this season.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-02-2011 at 06:20 PM.
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03-02-2011, 06:12 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
The Rangers and Hurricanes are the only two teams to have not signed a single one of their 2009 draft picks.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=885301

Kreider, Werek, Bourque, Stajcer, Maggio, Pashnin are all up for contract. I imagine Stajcer and Maggio will be let go. Not sure on Pashnin.
Roman Horak is an 09 pick too

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03-02-2011, 06:22 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Kreider has 11 goals and 12 assists in 30 games this year... How many of those goals were against weak opponents? How many of those 12 assists were secondary? If it matters, let's talk about it... Because Kreider isn't tearing up the NCAA the way Hagelin is... Yet we see such high projections for Kreider at the NHL level... It works both ways....
Digging in to when and how Kreider is getting points is fine.

But Kreider and Hagelin are apples and oranges. Kreider is a Sophomore on one of the deepest teams in the country; Hagelin is a Senior Captain and "the guy" for Michigan.

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03-02-2011, 06:27 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by nyrfan444 View Post
Digging in to when and how Kreider is getting points is fine.

But Kreider and Hagelin are apples and oranges. Kreider is a Sophomore on one of the deepest teams in the country; Hagelin is a Senior Captain and "the guy" for Michigan.
and Dylan McIlrath is 18 years old.

I've seen people question Kreider's production... People usually chime in and blame BC's head coach for not playing him enough, or mis-managing him in the line-up, which hasn't been supported or echo'd by some BC fans that have contributed throughout the year.... Either that, or people breakdown Kreider's production over a specific time period and try to paint a positive picture about it being on the upswing..... Well how many fans have questioned how many of his assists were secondary ones, or analyzed his point production vs. opponent strength? I haven't seen anyone do that... So why is it fair and important to do in McIlrath's case when we don't see anyone else doing the same for any of our highly touted prospects? I think that's a valid question to ask, don't you? You get my point...

If anyone has kept track of my post history, I've never made bold predictions or claimed specific projections for our prospects... My issue isn't with the players or what round they were selected in, my issue is when fans are biased, impatient, or hold prospects to different standards (and that works both ways).


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-02-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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Old
03-02-2011, 06:38 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
and Dylan McIlrath is 18 years old.

You get my point... I've seen people question Kreider's production... People usually chime in and blame BC's head coach for not playing him enough, or mis-managing him in the line-up, which hasn't been supported or echo'd by some BC fans that have contributed throughout the year.... Either that, or people breakdown Kreider's production over a specific time period and try to paint a positive picture about it being on the upswing..... Well how many fans have questioned how many of his assists were secondary ones, or analyzed his point production vs. opponent strength? I haven't seen anyone do that... So why is it "fair" and important to do in McIlrath's case when we don't see anyone else doing the same for any of our highly touted prospects? I think that's a valid question to ask, don't you?
I hear your point and am not disagreeing that digging further into Kreider's stats could potentially reveal some useful information about how and when he is producing. Or that certain prospects are scrutinized more heavily - that's just human nature.

But it can be equally significant to dig into McIlrath's stats, especially when they are being used by some to indicate that he is producing in a way to suggest that his offensive game is taking steps forward this year.

I have watched Dylan on numerous occasions this season and have just been unimpressed with his play in the offensive zone (puck control, decision making, vision, etc.). Yes he is 18, yes he can still develop. But I do not necessarily agree when I read his name and Shea Weber's being mentioned together.

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Old
03-02-2011, 06:45 PM
  #238
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I wonder how many "secondary" assists wayne Gretzky had in his career? Seriously -- get a life. An assist is an assist. Sometimes the person most responsible for a goal gets squat. McIlrath is a project on offense. Everyone Knew that going in. Let the kid develop. If he becomes a good offensive player that's a bonus to why we drafted him.

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03-02-2011, 06:47 PM
  #239
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I hear your point and am not disagreeing that digging further into Kreider's stats could potentially reveal some useful information about how and when he is producing.
It might... It could make us less optimistic about his future.. Or we could be patient and wait to see what he'll look like at the PRO level when he gets there...

My only point is, if we want to be super-critical about certain prospects, let's do it across the board... McIlrath didn't have any say in where he was selected, or who was passed up on before he was picked... If he was picked 24th overall, by the Rangers, would we still have people on here harping over +/-, penalties, or secondary assists in any particular game's boxscore?

Quote:
But it can be equally significant to dig into McIlrath's stats, especially when they are being used by some to indicate that he is producing in a way to suggest that his offensive game is taking steps forward this year.

I have watched Dylan on numerous occasions this season and have just been unimpressed with his play in the offensive zone (puck control, decision making, vision, etc.). Yes he is 18, yes he can still develop. But I do not necessarily agree when I read his name and Shea Weber's being mentioned together.
It's true what you're saying, but it's simply way too early to be concerned at this stage of the game... A hockeysfuture writer put it best in this write-up for our team:

Quote:
McIlrath is expected to develop slowly, and although the temptation is to evaluate him game-by-game, he will have ups and downs in his development toward the NHL. It is expected to be at least two more seasons before he will compete for an NHL roster spot.
I'm doing my best to reserve judgement until a couple years out or at least when he gets some pro experience under his belt... I'm doing the same with Kreider, but I am definitely excited to see how both players pan out as they both have significant potential.

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Old
03-02-2011, 06:51 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by nyrfan444 View Post
I have watched Dylan on numerous occasions this season and have just been unimpressed with his play in the offensive zone (puck control, decision making, vision, etc.). Yes he is 18, yes he can still develop. But I do not necessarily agree when I read his name and Shea Weber's being mentioned together.
I hate comparisons for that reason, because you put a player on a pedestal. Be honest though, did you ever see Shea Weber play in juniors? There was a reason he was selected 49th overall. I actually didn't even realize it, but I saw Shea Weber play live a few times. The reason I didn't realize it is because, at the time, he was nothing special.

People are comparing McIlrath now, to Shea Weber at the same age, not compared to the player he is today. Shea Weber's developmental trajectory was unbelivable.

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Old
03-02-2011, 06:57 PM
  #241
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Yeah lets ignore the facts Bob, good call.

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Old
03-02-2011, 06:59 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
and Dylan McIlrath is 18 years old.

I've seen people question Kreider's production... People usually chime in and blame BC's head coach for not playing him enough, or mis-managing him in the line-up, which hasn't been supported or echo'd by some BC fans that have contributed throughout the year.... Either that, or people breakdown Kreider's production over a specific time period and try to paint a positive picture about it being on the upswing..... Well how many fans have questioned how many of his assists were secondary ones, or analyzed his point production vs. opponent strength? I haven't seen anyone do that... So why is it fair and important to do in McIlrath's case when we don't see anyone else doing the same for any of our highly touted prospects? I think that's a valid question to ask, don't you? You get my point...

If anyone has kept track of my post history, I've never made bold predictions or claimed specific projections for our prospects... My issue isn't with the players or what round they were selected in, my issue is when fans are biased, impatient, or hold prospects to different standards (and that works both ways).

Very fair and valid argument. He is the only prospect where anything he does has to be overly scrutinized. Let him develop. If he ends up with more points than last year than that is a good thing. The organization is very high on him. I will take their opinion, especially Clarke and Gorton over quite a few people.


I have a very serious question for everyone:

If McIlrath becomes a Luke Schenn-like player who adds grit and shut-downs the other team while being able to drop the gloves and do it well is the pick considered a failure? Schenn is probably the best comparison I could think of for him. He was picked 5th.

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03-02-2011, 07:04 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by TreeSapLlama View Post
People are comparing McIlrath now, to Shea Weber at the same age, not compared to the player he is today. Shea Weber's developmental trajectory was unbelivable.
To be fair, they're also projecting him to at least possibly be similar to Weber of today when he develops. But I agree, it's stupid and saddles him with expectations so that we all feel like he was terrible and failed as a prospect if he doesn't reach the same status as Weber in the NHL, even if he does become a very good NHL player and plays an important role.

To me, it's more the smugness and snideness of "evaluating" McIlrath's play that gets me. Bring up good and bad points is fine. Constantly *****ing about him as a pick and being annoying about his faults, perceived or real, is just annoying as hell and doesn't add much.

There are ways to present information, even negative and unwelcome information, that will make it better received. And there's ways to be an ass and make everyone just dismiss you even if you have a good point

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03-02-2011, 07:22 PM
  #244
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To me, it's more the smugness and snideness of "evaluating" McIlrath's play that gets me. Bring up good and bad points is fine. Constantly *****ing about him as a pick and being annoying about his faults, perceived or real, is just annoying as hell and doesn't add much.

There are ways to present information, even negative and unwelcome information, that will make it better received. And there's ways to be an ass and make everyone just dismiss you even if you have a good point
Gets to ya huh?

Well, you must not be talkin bout lil ole Bluenote cause like I said I only present the facts and occasionally express my doubts about the pick. But I don't give my opinion on what I really think cause what I really think is that the kid has a long way to go if he ever makes it, and there's no conversation in that, much like the ever popular 'we have to wait and see'.

BTW, when is it okay to say the overrating of some of our prospects and the constant drooling is too much and annoying? Goes both ways, but we never here about that, just silly negative nellies who use facts as WMD's out to destroy the Ranger youth

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03-02-2011, 07:24 PM
  #245
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I don't care if McIlrath puts up any points at all.

IMO, he wasn't drafted to be a team leader in offensive production. He was drafted to be a shut down, stay at home, mean, physical, intimidating defenseman.

And those things won't show up in a box score.

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03-02-2011, 07:36 PM
  #246
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[QUOTE=Bluenote13;31371505]Gets to ya huh?

Well, you must not be talkin bout lil ole Bluenote /QUOTE]

I think you present things in a way that riles people up and you may do it intentionally at times when you're "annoyed" at the people who make excuses for prospects

I think ODC is the worst about what I was talking about though.

e: I'm all for talking about overrating of prospects and thigns like that. I'm worried al ot about Kreider and think people excuse him a ton. I think presenting it in a productive way is the key though or we end up like monkeys flinging poop

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03-02-2011, 08:01 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Probably against a weak opponent or I'm sure he took some penalties to mitigate those assists, so they don't really count towards anything.
Again, I didn't start, the Wolf did

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Of course, you don't even have to look at this point

Regina, 19th in a 22 team league.

And those were secondary assists, neither on the power play.
I joked, smilie face and everything !

Then gave the facts.

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I think you present things in a way that riles people up and you may do it intentionally at times when you're "annoyed" at the people who make excuses for prospects

I think ODC is the worst about what I was talking about though.

e: I'm all for talking about overrating of prospects and thigns like that. I'm worried al ot about Kreider and think people excuse him a ton. I think presenting it in a productive way is the key though or we end up like monkeys flinging poop
Show me how I could have been more productive, I need the help.

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Old
03-02-2011, 08:24 PM
  #248
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Enough, guys. This is the prospect thread, not the place for you guys to dissect each other's posting behaviors. Move on please.

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03-02-2011, 08:43 PM
  #249
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In all the years I watched him, I never cared how many assists, let alone secondary ones, Ulfie or Beukeboom got. But I sure enjoyed watching them mash the heck out of people

McIlrath, from what I understand, is playing well despite the injury. That's all i care about right now.

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03-02-2011, 08:47 PM
  #250
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Kreider (18), McIlrath (50) and McDonagh (75) made THN future watch.

I guess nobody saw McDonagh's skating and defensive prowess translating so well.

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