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Old
02-21-2011, 01:28 PM
  #126
sa cyred
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Zherdevís last game was Feb. 10 at home vs. the Hurricanes. Since, heís had a cushy spot in the press box. In even more of an indictment, Holmgren said when the team was scrambling around before Friday nightís game when Richards went down, nobody could find Zherdev, so Jody Shelley got the call.
http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/...kolay-zherdev/

So reason why Zherdev didnt play on Friday was because he couldnt be found.

Figures. This shows a totally responsible player

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02-21-2011, 01:31 PM
  #127
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My work ethic would also drop if inferior players were taking my spot on the team even though I had been playing the way I was expected to play all season.

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02-21-2011, 01:33 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
My work ethic would also drop if inferior players were taking my spot on the team even though I had been playing the way I was expected to play all season.
Well they arent going to feel bad for him and start playing him. We are winning games and I could care less about Zherdev's feelings. I also bet him not being around Friday pissed Lavy off even more.

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02-21-2011, 01:34 PM
  #129
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My work ethic would also drop if inferior players were taking my spot on the team even though I had been playing the way I was expected to play all season.
You're not expected to play your position the way the coach demands?

Putting up some goals isn't all there is to playing hockey.

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02-21-2011, 01:37 PM
  #130
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My work ethic would also drop if inferior players were taking my spot on the team even though I had been playing the way I was expected to play all season.
100% agree. However, Zherdev is NOT "playing the way <he> was expected to play all season". He's "expected" to skate hard, battle for pucks, play smart systemic hockey, and in a word...try. He doesn't have the effort that is expected of him. It's quite simple. Trying when you have the puck is not enough.

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02-21-2011, 01:39 PM
  #131
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You're not expected to play your position the way the coach demands?

Putting up some goals isn't all there is to playing hockey.
Holmgren knew what kind of player Zherdev was when he signed him. I'm sure he consulted Laviolette about the signing also. He's not going to be a brute out there or a defensive workhorse, but he has proven that he's willing to make and take big hits and play physical along with scoring key goals.

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02-21-2011, 01:51 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Holmgren knew what kind of player Zherdev was when he signed him. I'm sure he consulted Laviolette about the signing also. He's not going to be a brute out there or a defensive workhorse, but he has proven that he's willing to make and take big hits and play physical along with scoring key goals.
No, he's proven he will do that when he wants to. And "knowing what kind of player he is" is no excuse. You don't reward a bratty child for being a brat and just brush it under the table because "well, we all knew he was a brat".

The Flyers signed him because he is talented, cheap, and he said he was committed to a comeback in the NHL and labeled himself a different player. He's proven that he isn't different. He's the same player he always was, which isn't what the Flyers were hoping they were signing.

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02-21-2011, 01:54 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Holmgren knew what kind of player Zherdev was when he signed him. I'm sure he consulted Laviolette about the signing also. He's not going to be a brute out there or a defensive workhorse, but he has proven that he's willing to make and take big hits and play physical along with scoring key goals.
Holmgren was signing a talented hockey player... that's it. At times, Z has really played well here. At others, he's freelanced and done his own thing. If he'd committed himself to maintaining the high level he's shown, then he'd still be in the lineup. He didn't, and that's why he's in the doghouse.

"Z is what he is" is not a legitimate argument in his favor.

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02-21-2011, 02:08 PM
  #134
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Holmgren was signing a talented hockey player... that's it. At times, Z has really played well here. At others, he's freelanced and done his own thing. If he'd committed himself to maintaining the high level he's shown, then he'd still be in the lineup. He didn't, and that's why he's in the doghouse.

"Z is what he is" is not a legitimate argument in his favor.
That's the argument that is used constantly for the likes of Shelley and Carcillo. "Shelley was signed as a goon who will fight. He has a hard time keeping up as he is one of the slowest players in the league. He is what he is." "Carcillo is a pest who may pop in a goal here and there. He's also known for taking dumb penalties that often cost his team. He is what he is." "Zherdev is a constant threat on offense but is known for turning his physicality on and off and not putting forth 100% effort on defense. He is what he is."

I don't see what the difference is between those three statements and why Z should be singled out.

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02-21-2011, 02:10 PM
  #135
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That's the argument that is used constantly for the likes of Shelley and Carcillo. "Shelley was signed as a goon who will fight. He has a hard time keeping up as he is one of the slowest players in the league. He is what he is." "Carcillo is a pest who may pop in a goal here and there. He's also known for taking dumb penalties that often cost his team. He is what he is." "Zherdev is a constant threat on offense but is known for turning his physicality on and off and not putting forth 100% effort on defense. He is what he is."

I don't see what the difference is between those three statements and why Z should be singled out.
You say this as if Carcillo hasn't been a frequent healthy scratch as well...

And while I loathe the Shelley signing, you cannot make a legit argument that he has failed to do his job or play his position as directed. Sure, he ain't great at playing his position... but he plays it as directed.

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02-21-2011, 02:15 PM
  #136
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You say this as if Carcillo hasn't been a frequent healthy scratch as well...

And while I loathe the Shelley signing, you cannot make a legit argument that he has failed to do his job or play his position as directed. Sure, he ain't great at playing his position... but he plays it as directed.
How can he be playing as directed if he can't play his position? That's what I'm talking about. Shelley is given a free pass for not playing his position because he can fight and is a goon. Zherdev is treated like **** because he's not the best at playing without the puck even though the Flyers are a more dynamic offensive team with him in the lineup. Can you honestly say the Flyers have looked better on defense, offense, or even in the neutral zone without Zherdev? I'd say they looked better in all three zones with him.

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02-21-2011, 02:26 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
How can he be playing as directed if he can't play his position? That's what I'm talking about. Shelley is given a free pass for not playing his position because he can fight and is a goon. Zherdev is treated like **** because he's not the best at playing without the puck even though the Flyers are a more dynamic offensive team with him in the lineup. Can you honestly say the Flyers have looked better on defense, offense, or even in the neutral zone without Zherdev? I'd say they looked better in all three zones with him.
Ha, bold statement, considering up until 2-3 weeks ago, we never lost a game when Zherdev was out of the lineup. I remember someone posting that fact during the Allstar break.

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02-21-2011, 02:34 PM
  #138
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Ha, bold statement, considering up until 2-3 weeks ago, we never lost a game when Zherdev was out of the lineup. I remember someone posting that fact during the Allstar break.
All I know is that we've been without him for the last 5 games. We've looked terrible for what we're capable of for all 5 of those gamnes.

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02-21-2011, 02:35 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
How can he be playing as directed if he can't play his position? That's what I'm talking about. Shelley is given a free pass for not playing his position because he can fight and is a goon. Zherdev is treated like **** because he's not the best at playing without the puck even though the Flyers are a more dynamic offensive team with him in the lineup. Can you honestly say the Flyers have looked better on defense, offense, or even in the neutral zone without Zherdev? I'd say they looked better in all three zones with him.
They don't look any different, really.

Now, as to your larger point. You are completely missing the fact that the issue with Shelley v. Zherdev is one of effort/desire to do things as directed. Sure, Shelley isn't all that great at playing his position... but that has absolutely nothing to do with him ignoring the directions of the coach. If Shelley was out there freelancing and not doing his job as directed, he'd be a healthy scratch (hell, pretty much everyone on the team would be).

Zherdev has been a selfish player at times this year, and displayed a lack of commitment to doing things the "right" way at times. That's why he's in the doghouse.

You're making an ends justify means argument... and that rarely flies with coaches, who spend the majority of their time worrying over the means. More importantly, this team doesn't really "need" Zherdev out there, so the ends are getting met just fine without him in the lineup.

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02-21-2011, 02:43 PM
  #140
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All I know is that we've been without him for the last 5 games. We've looked terrible for what we're capable of for all 5 of those gamnes.
They've gone 3-2, and they looked fine in the loss to LA... they just got beat by a goalie playing an extremely good game.

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02-21-2011, 02:44 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They don't look any different, really.

Now, as to your larger point. You are completely missing the fact that the issue with Shelley v. Zherdev is one of effort/desire to do things as directed. Sure, Shelley isn't all that great at playing his position... but that has absolutely nothing to do with him ignoring the directions of the coach. If Shelley was out there freelancing and not doing his job as directed, he'd be a healthy scratch (hell, pretty much everyone on the team would be).

Zherdev has been a selfish player at times this year, and displayed a lack of commitment to doing things the "right" way at times. That's why he's in the doghouse.

You're making an ends justify means argument... and that rarely flies with coaches, who spend the majority of their time worrying over the means. More importantly, this team doesn't really "need" Zherdev out there, so the ends are getting met just fine without him in the lineup.
The difference between me and Laviolette is that I care about who will help my team more, regardless of effort. That's cute that Shelley is giving 100% effort, but Zherdev is faster gliding than Shelley is doing full speed of whatever his excuse for skating is. He's far more useful to the team than Shelley is.

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02-21-2011, 02:50 PM
  #142
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The difference between me and Laviolette is that I care about who will help my team more, regardless of effort. That's cute that Shelley is giving 100% effort, but Zherdev is faster gliding than Shelley is doing full speed of whatever his excuse for skating is. He's far more useful to the team than Shelley is.
The difference between you and Laviolette is that his employment is based on his team winning as many hockey games as possible. That sentence you just wrote is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site.

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02-21-2011, 02:53 PM
  #143
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They've gone 3-2, and they looked fine in the loss to LA... they just got beat by a goalie playing an extremely good game.
Last 5 games:
Kings- There have been games where we've been shutout but outplayed the opponent. Last year against Halak is an example. I never had the feeling like we should've won this game.
Lightning- A strong start, but a piss poor effort for the 2nd half. Not a game to remember.
Florida- Once again, we fall apart at the end against a very weak team. It's not a win against a top team.
Carolina- Worst game we've played all year? Probably.
Rangers- I felt we got dominated for the majority of the game. We couldn't sustain a nice rhythm in the offensive zone and our defensive play was garbage all game long.

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02-21-2011, 02:58 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The difference between you and Laviolette is that his employment is based on his team winning as many hockey games as possible. That sentence you just wrote is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site.
Come on, man...you know what he meant.

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02-21-2011, 03:05 PM
  #145
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Last 5 games:
Kings- There have been games where we've been shutout but outplayed the opponent. Last year against Halak is an example. I never had the feeling like we should've won this game.
Lightning- A strong start, but a piss poor effort for the 2nd half. Not a game to remember.
Florida- Once again, we fall apart at the end against a very weak team. It's not a win against a top team.
Carolina- Worst game we've played all year? Probably.
Rangers- I felt we got dominated for the majority of the game. We couldn't sustain a nice rhythm in the offensive zone and our defensive play was garbage all game long.
It's my feeling that he thinks having a hard working player like Shelley on the bench and in the locker room will have a positive effect on the team, making them win more games. I'd personally rather have the player that has more of an effect on the ice. He's the Stanley Cup winning coach and he knows what he's doing, but I disagree on this one subject.

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02-21-2011, 03:10 PM
  #146
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Come on, man...you know what he meant.
I do... and to suggest that he, you, or I care more about what will "help [the] team more" is utterly bat-guano insane. The man's job is based entirely around the performance of this roster.

He disagrees with Laviolette because he overlooks a host of problems with Zherdev to focus on the things he happens to do well (note: the only thing he's really done well is score some goals this year... he hasn't created offense for the rest of the team when he's on the ice). To suggest ignoring Zherdev's fault in light of his strengths equates to him caring more about what will help the team... hilarious.

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02-21-2011, 03:15 PM
  #147
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Jody Shelley +0.82 ON/60

Nicolai Zherdev +0.78 ON/60

Now, Shelley is terrible and shouldn't see the ice come playoff time. And, fact of the matter is that that I would prefer Zherdev out there over Shelley. The problem, however, is that his play hasn't been good enough to earn the minutes with the scoring lines, and he's useless as a 4th line guy. So, he's a healthy scratch.

Moreover, you cannot reward players with ice time when they're ignoring the coach. Sets a terrible example to the rest of the team, which is another thing that JVR21 is completely ignoring here.

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02-21-2011, 03:43 PM
  #148
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It's my feeling that he thinks having a hard working player like Shelley on the bench and in the locker room will have a positive effect on the team, making them win more games. I'd personally rather have the player that has more of an effect on the ice. He's the Stanley Cup winning coach and he knows what he's doing, but I disagree on this one subject.
I'd certainly rather Zherdev playing over Shelley, but he's sitting because Lavi would probably rather set an example that "I don't care how much talent you have, if you aren't busting your butt, and playing our system, you will not play". He probably believes that if his players know they will be sat without 100% effort, regardless of talent, it will ultimately result in more wins.

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02-21-2011, 05:07 PM
  #149
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since Joe Nieuwendyk is in a giving mood how about we send Zherdev and Matt Carle down to Dallas for Goligoski and Loui Eriksson

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02-21-2011, 05:43 PM
  #150
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Just Loui Eriksson for Zherdev instead.

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