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ATD 2011 Draft Thread V

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:13 PM
  #351
jarek
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He's trying to compare Zetterberg and Keats as if it's apples to apples. I'm throwing it right back in his face.

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02-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
He's trying to compare Zetterberg and Keats as if it's apples to apples. I'm throwing it right back in his face.
you missed his face. by a mile or so.

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02-21-2011, 05:15 PM
  #353
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I see Zetterberg as kind of a poor man's Milt Schmidt. Neither is that good offensively, but they can contribute enough to be a top liner... as long as they are the weakest offensive player on the line. They bring a whole lot of other stuff to the table though, and if your top line is missing those things, then Zetterberg is fine in that spot.

Despite the Selkes, I've always thought Zetterberg was quite a bit better defensively than Datsyuk.

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02-21-2011, 05:18 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
He's trying to compare Zetterberg and Keats as if it's apples to apples. I'm throwing it right back in his face.
How's that apples and oranges?

-I think Zetterberg faces tougher competition. Given the talent pool today, it is quite obvious. This makes his achievements more impressive IMHO.

-Has better peak, 07-08 season
and longetivity - mentioned already

-Is better defensively

You picked Keats just a few spots before Zetterberg was taken, so I don't see why you would be upset about the fact that I think Zetterberg is a better player in ATD.

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02-21-2011, 05:19 PM
  #355
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Datsyuk is a master at taking the puck away from an opponent, head and shoulders above anyone else in that regard. Zetterberg's defensive game, more of a traditional shadow style, is not something that can be quantified, nor as flashy as what Datsyuk does. It's easy to see why Datsyuk is more well regarded for Selke votes.

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02-21-2011, 05:19 PM
  #356
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On the ice? Perhaps, more violent, but overall about even at best. Off the ice? That is no contest.
Yeah...right. Life was a lot harder off the ice for old-time players, who didn't enjoy anything close to modern medicine. And on the ice...about even?! Are you trolling me? This is just an ignorant statement. The NHL under the instigator rule where *****es like Ian Laperriere vs. hockey in the prewar era when Newsy Lalonde would hit you in the face with his stick whenever he damn well pleased. Yeah, real close on the ice.

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Not bums.
But look at the competition. Look at the number of hockey players in the World at that time. And in that league. The talent pool just does not compare.
You seem to be forgetting that a disproportionate number of professional athletes in North America played hockey in the prewar era, as hockey and baseball were the only real paying sports on the continent. There is tons of anecdotal evidence that athletes from other sports (football, lacrosse, etc.) were attracted to hockey and became professionals because of the money. The Conacher family is the best example that comes to mind, but there are many more, including Newsy Lalonde, who was a great lacrosse player in the offseason, Tommy Phillips, who was a great rower, and Joe Hall, who wrestled bears and killed crocodiles with his bare hands (I made that part up).

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Zetterberg was voted the best player in the NHL in 07-08, by GMs (I remember Burke being mentioned), media (tsn), and players (I know Sakic was part of that).
That's great for him; I hope he got a cookie for it. Here is his Hart Trophy finish (from THN) in 07-08:

Quote:
10. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 17 (0-0-2-1-4)
Not a single first or second place vote. And this is supposed to equate to Fredrickson being the best player in the world in 1922-23?

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Zetterberg has been generally placed in the top10 or top15 for a few years now. That is more impressive than what Keats or Fredrickson achieved IMHO.
So what you're saying is that being 10-15th today is like being one of the top 2-3 players in the world in the 1920's? Because that's exactly what Fredrickson was over the course of his peak. So you think the NHL today is approximately five times better than it was back then? Your bias is pretty extreme.

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02-21-2011, 05:20 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
How's that apples and oranges?

-I think Zetterberg faces tougher competition. Given the talent pool today, it is quite obvious. This makes his achievements more impressive IMHO.

-Has better peak, 07-08 season
and longetivity - mentioned already

-Is better defensively

You picked Keats just a few spots before Zetterberg was taken, so I don't see why you would be upset about the fact that I think Zetterberg is a better player in ATD.
I'm not upset because you're the only one here who thinks this. And Zetterberg definitely does not have the better peak.

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02-21-2011, 05:23 PM
  #358
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Not to mention do you seriously think for a second Zetterberg was better than Crosby, Ovechkin, and ****** in 07/08?

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02-21-2011, 05:23 PM
  #359
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Duke Keats bio, 100% complete!

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...8&postcount=70

I hope everyone takes the time to read this. I think I did a much better job with this than the Denneny bio.

Well, maybe not 100%.. I couldn't access Pages of the Past from the Toronto Star to look more into Keats' St. Pats days.

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02-21-2011, 05:26 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Duke Keats bio, 100% complete!

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...8&postcount=70

I hope everyone takes the time to read this. I think I did a much better job with this than the Denneny bio.

Well, maybe not 100%.. I couldn't access Pages of the Past from the Toronto Star to look more into Keats' St. Pats days.
Globe and Mail is your best shot for that, even if it's harder to navigate.

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02-21-2011, 05:26 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah...right. Life was a lot harder off the ice for old-time players, who didn't enjoy anything close to modern medicine. And on the ice...about even?! Are you trolling me? This is just an ignorant statement. The NHL under the instigator rule where *****es like Ian Laperriere vs. hockey in the prewar era when Newsy Lalonde would hit you in the face with his stick whenever he damn well pleased. Yeah, real close on the ice.
Because violent behaviour is the only indicator? How about speed? Being checked harder?
Off the ice? When did Lalonde fly over the whole USA to play a game? The training and modern medicine are requirements, not benefits. Since all NHL players train hard and stay in good shape, it makes it that much tougher to take advantage of your natural talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You seem to be forgetting that a disproportionate number of professional athletes in North America played hockey in the prewar era, as hockey and baseball were the only real paying sports on the continent. There is tons of anecdotal evidence that athletes from other sports (football, lacrosse, etc.) were attracted to hockey and became professionals because of the money. The Conacher family is the best example that comes to mind, but there are many more, including Newsy Lalonde, who was a great lacrosse player in the offseason, Tommy Phillips, who was a great rower, and Joe Hall, who wrestled bears and killed crocodiles with his bare hands (I made that part up).
The talent pool is significantly better and bigger today. Is that even arguable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That's great for him; I hope he got a cookie for it. Here is his Hart Trophy finish (from THN) in 07-08:

Not a single first or second place vote. And this is supposed to equate to Fredrickson being the best player in the world in 1922-23?
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index...._player_o.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
So what you're saying is that being 10-15th today is like being one of the top 2-3 players in the world in the 1920's? Because that's exactly what Fredrickson was over the course of his peak. So you think the NHL today is approximately five times better than it was back then? Your bias is pretty extreme.
Given the talent pool, and the size of the league..
if not 5, then what? 2, 3? 4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I'm not upset because you're the only one here who thinks this. And Zetterberg definitely does not have the better peak.
How do you know that?

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:27 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
-I think Zetterberg faces tougher competition. Given the talent pool today, it is quite obvious. This makes his achievements more impressive IMHO.
I agree that his accomplisments are more impressive.... but, just how much more? I don't think it's enough to make them equal to or better than Keats or Fredrickson.

As I said before, Zetterberg shouldn't be a first liner for his offense. He is a passable first liner as a glue guy.

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:29 PM
  #363
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Zetterberg was a good 3rd liner in the 30 team ATD's last year, now all of a sudden he is a good 1st liner?

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02-21-2011, 05:29 PM
  #364
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It might be four or five times better.

But, the disparity between talent level grows with lesser players and shrinks with the better players. The difference between the best then and the best now is not 5 times, but the difference between the worst now and the worst then is probably closer to 10 times.

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02-21-2011, 05:30 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Not to mention do you seriously think for a second Zetterberg was better than Crosby, Ovechkin, and ****** in 07/08?
Let's see: Ovechkin got 20 points more in 7 more games with no defencive responcibilities, no PK-time and 120 min PP more, while Zetterberg played 150 SH minutes more and playing against opponents' top line night in night out. Hmm, i got Zetterberg.

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:32 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You really think that Henrik Zetterberg is an all-time elite defensive forward?! Like one of the very, very best that has ever played. Really?!



To an extent, you are correct in the sense that modern players get nit-picked to death for all of their flaws while old-timers' flaws, except for the truly exceptional cases, are almost always glossed over. I remember getting reamed out in a previous ATD for suggesting that Zdeno Chara is pretty similar to Butch Bouchard, which would hardly seem like a controversial statement today, but back in ATD#9 was considered absolute sacrilege. I'm one of the GMs who pushed hardest in previous ATDs against the overglorification of old-timers and the overcriticism of modern players, because if you think it's bad now, you have no idea.

With that being said, I still think you are showing a terrible lack of perspective. Overcriticism of modern players remains and I still hate it: case in point Ilya Kovalchuk, who if he had played 70 years ago would probably be drafted about 50 spots higher, but because we've all seen him just gets picked apart by the piranhas around here. But overglorification of old-time players is really a thing of the past, and in fact those of us who are really interested in the older guys have taken a sharper and sharper knife to their careers with each iteration of the ATD and quite a few of them (like Babe Pratt and George Hainesworth) have taken a nosedive in the ATD because of that criticism. You act like we just go around pumping up old players simply because they are old, but you could not be further from the truth, and frankly, you just don't know what the **** you're talking about.

ATD 2011 is in some ways a return to the really early days of the ATD (before my time), back when older players were terribly underrated because nobody knew anything about them. The reason for this is simple: we have lots of new GMs filling out our 40 teams and not all of them are well-informed about players they haven't personally seen. This is natural and to be expected. It is also to be expected that the more experienced GMs will end up drafting a lot of old-time players in such a scenario, because they end up being the best values on the board. If you open your eyes a bit, it might just be you who is taking some old PCHA star in the next draft. That is...if you came here to learn something.
Good post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
The talent pool is significantly better and bigger today. Is that even arguable?
No.

Quote:
Given the talent pool, and the size of the league..
if not 5, then what? 2, 3? 4?
I'm guessing about 3.

So if you're the 3rd-best player in the 1920s that's about as impressive as 9th-best in the 2010s.

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02-21-2011, 05:34 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I agree that his accomplisments are more impressive.... but, just how much more? I don't think it's enough to make them equal to or better than Keats or Fredrickson.

As I said before, Zetterberg shouldn't be a first liner for his offense. He is a passable first liner as a glue guy.
What does glue guy means? Just curious

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02-21-2011, 05:35 PM
  #368
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What does glue guy means? Just curious
Alex Burrows in Vancouver, for example.

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02-21-2011, 05:36 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Good post.

So if you're the 3rd-best player in the 1920s that's about as impressive as 9th-best in the 2010s.
Still depend which guy were after and before the 3rd or 9th , I think if we truly want to compare we also have to compare the competition on a case-by-case basis.

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02-21-2011, 05:38 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Alex Burrows in Vancouver, for example.
So 25455 doesn't play with the 254235? Shows how much I know about the Canucks.To be honest this year is the year I've watched the less hockey.Kind of a boring year all around.

Crosby was making some interesting noise but it ended abruptly.

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02-21-2011, 05:40 PM
  #371
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i think the whole Zetterberg vs Keats discussion is kind of pointless, they fulfill diferent roles. Who i rather have as 1 line complimentary center? Zetterberg. Who i rather build my 2nd line around? Keats.

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02-21-2011, 05:41 PM
  #372
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So xxxxx doesn't play with the S***ns? Shows how much I know about the Canucks.To be honest this year is the year I've watched the less hockey.Kind of a boring year all around.

Crosby was making some interesting noise but it ended abruptly.
Those guys will all be drafted you should bleep their names out, but yeah Burrows plays on our 1st line, even though he isn't a typical 1st liner. Thats what he means by ''glue guy''.


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02-21-2011, 05:43 PM
  #373
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Guys give me a little time on this one. I just got home from work & gotta make my daughter dinner. Be back shortly

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02-21-2011, 05:44 PM
  #374
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I will probably use a glue guy on the Gretzky-McDonald line myself.

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02-21-2011, 05:49 PM
  #375
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I will probably use a glue guy on the Gretzky-McDonald line myself.
Anyone with a decent scoring touch should fit in with the great one.

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