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ATD 2011 Draft Thread V

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Old
02-19-2011, 01:15 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Hopefully some of those stats in his post will convince people that he's a solid pick at this point.
I don't think he's a bad pick at all. The point on your first PP unit is a very important position, and Gonchar is just a step below elite for that role.

He's definitely an adventure in his own zone, however. In a 30 team draft, I would never have him in my Top 4. I'd use him as a bottom pairing guy / PP specialist. In a 40 team draft, he starts to look more attractive as a second pairing puck mover.

Keep in mind, however, that I'm just one GM, and defensemen who can't play defense are my least favorite form of hockey player.

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Old
02-19-2011, 01:17 PM
  #27
vecens24
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
Part of Gonchar's TOI is going to be his PP time though. I'd like to see his ES-only and PK-only TOI those years.
Last year ES he was behind Orpik and Letang. 08-09 he was behind Orpik (and Whitney befroe Whitney got traded 1/4 of the way through the year). 05-06, 06-07 and 07-08 he was #1.

PK he was first last year, 5th in 08-09, 2nd in 07-08, 3rd 06-07. All of these #'s are TOI/gm

Having watched at least 75% of his games over the last 5 years as a Pens fan I can tell you he's not nearly as bad in his own zone as he gets a wrap for. His days in Washington if I remember correctly weren't that good defensively, but he defintiely wasn't nearly as bad as he got the wrap for in Pittsburgh at least. In an ATD sense, he's probably just a small step below competent defensively.


Last edited by vecens24: 02-19-2011 at 01:25 PM.
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Old
02-19-2011, 01:49 PM
  #28
BillyShoe1721
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As a Flyers fan that watched him 6-8 times every year the last 5 years, I thought he was very solid in his own zone. He was the true catalyst of that Pittsburgh PP and was extremely important to their success.

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Old
02-19-2011, 02:09 PM
  #29
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
True enough on Iginla. Not entirely sure but that would require me to look at more top lines; but I think often times we see top lines rely on one guy to be the designated "puck winner", and I think Francis is pretty solid in that sense.
Francis was great two ways and didn't shy away from taking a hit to make a play for example, but, at least from what I remember of him, you're in trouble if you're expecting him to win a lot of physical battles for loose pucks.

He wasn't physically intimidating at all despite having pretty decent size.

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02-19-2011, 02:22 PM
  #30
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Francis was great two ways and didn't shy away from taking a hit to make a play for example, but, at least from what I remember of him, you're in trouble if you're expecting him to win a lot of physical battles for loose pucks.

He wasn't physically intimidating at all despite having pretty decent size.
I don't think one has to be physically intimidating to be a puck battler. His seventies bio is ripe with quotes on his ability to take a hit, use the body in subtle ways, be that strong guy that's hard to knock down, and a couple of references to corner work.

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Old
02-19-2011, 03:08 PM
  #31
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It's not my intention to bring old stuff, but I wrote that the last time I took the plane and don't want to be wasted. Beware, I sound a little angry in this, which is pretty rare in the ATD!

---

Wow, the hate for Krutov is quite astonishing, to the point where it becomes funny.

IF Krutov ever took performance enhancing drugs, some people made it look like it would of been the only reason why he was able to retrieve the puck in the corners from Patrice Brisebois.

Krutov, at the time of his selection, was by far the best offensive package remaining: not only was he a physical specimen, he also had a wicked shot, weither it was a slapshot or a wristshot, and a very precise one. He was also a clever playmaker. I have him as the 4th best winger of the 1980's.

Also, I find it quite humorous that people can claim on just how much steroids can affect a players performances, and make it a rule of thumb, like these effects are very well known and many studies has been done on hockey players. IF, and again I reiterate the IF as it his very important in this case, Krutov took performance enhancing drugs, we cannot quantify how much it affected his performances.

I'll admit something: I know next to nothing about steroids, but I feel some people are uninformed claims on the subject. IF Krutov took steroids, I find it rather disturbing that some of the users I respect the most around those boards think that arguably the brainiest and most offensively gifted left winger of his generation wouldn't be a top-500+ best player of All-Time. My feel of the situation is that IF Krutov took steroids, people are drastically downgrading his achievement, because of the moral issues of taking drugs, which should only be the reason for a GM to not select him at any point, and not making his career a mockery due to these speculative assumption.

Take for example Sprague Cleghorn. Never would he be able to play in today's NHL. Why a player like him (and others) dosn't get drastically knocked down, on the assumption that they tried to kill players on the ice (but again, who am I to judge that attemped murder is a bigger sin than speculative assumption of taking drugs?). I love Cleghorn BTW, it's to make a point that I use him as an example.

I rest my case. When we are talking about making assumption on most older players, we're making assumption on their style of play, and not drastically downgrading their career on hypothetical off-ice situation.

Now as Jarek pointed out earlier, you want to scratch some point off Krutov's resume for the fact that he was unable to adjust himself to the North American style of play, go ahead, and to a certain degree, I agree with those assessment. It's my main reason why I have Larionov over Krutov on my list and why Krutov is about #150 and not in the top-120. It's definitely debatable, and hopefully, I'll have time to make an honest assessment on this matter.

PS: I need to stress again that the above discussion is on the assumption, on non-factual stories that Krutov took steroids at one point during his career.

PS2: If you have moral issues about the behaviour of the Cleghorns, Bobby Hulls, Krutovs or the Patrick Roys, I will respect anyone deciding to skip on them and never selecting them. But please, leave the hearsay and the what-ifs outside the overall on-ice performances of a player (I understand that Hull and Roy are infamous for non-hockey related incident, but the point remain).

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Old
02-19-2011, 03:09 PM
  #32
Nalyd Psycho
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Norris Trophy, especially in previous, has largely been more of an offensive award. One certainly hasn't had to been particularly good defensively to do well in the award voting.

The TOI is good. I think people suggest putting him on the 3rd pairing largely so you can let Gonchar do the thing he does best (the PP), but I don't see why he can't be on the second pairing in a forty-teamer. First pairing is more...eh.
I agree he should focus on pp but he's not so weak he get can't minutes. More so you want Langway as a shutdown guy...

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Old
02-19-2011, 03:11 PM
  #33
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Completed Gonchar bio:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=31057593&postcount=3

Expect a Frank McGee bio some time today or tomorrow.

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Old
02-19-2011, 04:28 PM
  #34
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I have a list for Reds when Nighthawks gets skipped.

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Old
02-19-2011, 04:44 PM
  #35
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There is absolutely no proof that Krutov took steroids and it's a ridiculous assessment to make just because he looks like he could have taken it. Shall we start with phrenology now too?

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Old
02-19-2011, 04:54 PM
  #36
Leafs Forever
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There is absolutely no proof that Krutov took steroids and it's a ridiculous assessment to make just because he looks like he could have taken it. Shall we start with phrenology now too?
Sturminator made the fair point that really, we assume a lot of things based on similar amounts of proof as Krutov taking steroids.

But EB makes the good point as to the true degree in which this should damage Krutov's legacy.

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Old
02-19-2011, 04:57 PM
  #37
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Krutov sucking royally his one season in the NHL diminishes any idea that he was a steal EB, as well.

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Old
02-19-2011, 04:59 PM
  #38
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I don't think one has to be physically intimidating to be a puck battler. His seventies bio is ripe with quotes on his ability to take a hit, use the body in subtle ways, be that strong guy that's hard to knock down, and a couple of references to corner work.
I'm a big Francis supporter but as I said: he was willing to pay a price for sure when need be and he was definitely a hard working and leadership type guy.. but he wasn't out there looking to initiate contact much.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:02 PM
  #39
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Yes, pretty much all the Russians that came over had at least respectable careers, and a few played for a really long time. The fact that Krutov is the lone exception to this is damning. I think it had more to do with him being completely out of shape. I mean, nobody of that body size could have kept up their endurance during an intense 82 game schedule, and Krutov didn't have elite linemates to sort of mask that. Yeah, he had a good shot, and he was effective in the corners, but let's keep in mind that those things never really required him to move as much. When you got a winger like Makarov on your line who could keep the puck on his stick for ages, it could not have been often that Krutov had to dig the puck out of the corners for his line. I doubt that line played that sort of dump and chase style, they likely played a more puck possession style that relied on the skills of Makarov and Larionov. I still hold that Krutov was THE least important member of that line, I feel like all he really did was take passes and shoot, and get the puck out of the corner when necessary.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:03 PM
  #40
Leafs Forever
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I'm a big Francis supporter but as I said: he was willing to pay a price for sure when need be and he was definitely a hard working and leadership type guy.. but he wasn't out there looking to initiate contact much.
Not saying he did, but I don't see why one has to be a heavy hitter to be a digger.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:20 PM
  #41
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The clocks up in half an hour, you got a few people's lists boy wonder? I want to be able to pick in 7 days!

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Yes, pretty much all the Russians that came over had at least respectable careers, and a few played for a really long time. The fact that Krutov is the lone exception to this is damning. I think it had more to do with him being completely out of shape. I mean, nobody of that body size could have kept up their endurance during an intense 82 game schedule, and Krutov didn't have elite linemates to sort of mask that. Yeah, he had a good shot, and he was effective in the corners, but let's keep in mind that those things never really required him to move as much. When you got a winger like Makarov on your line who could keep the puck on his stick for ages, it could not have been often that Krutov had to dig the puck out of the corners for his line. I doubt that line played that sort of dump and chase style, they likely played a more puck possession style that relied on the skills of Makarov and Larionov. I still hold that Krutov was THE least important member of that line, I feel like all he really did was take passes
and shoot, and get the puck out of the corner when necessary.

You obviously never saw Krutov play. He was a complete offensive player and always dangerous with the puck on his stick. From what I saw of him in the 87 Canada Cup, he was generating as much offence as any Soviet. He and Makarov were the first two PK forwards against Canada, btw. And Krutov was definitely not slow or out of shape.

Watch some video instead of making assumptions.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:30 PM
  #43
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I made it back, so I can announce the pick for Reds4Life and I when the clock runs out

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:34 PM
  #44
jarek
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
You obviously never saw Krutov play. He was a complete offensive player and always dangerous with the puck on his stick. From what I saw of him in the 87 Canada Cup, he was generating as much offence as any Soviet. He and Makarov were the first two PK forwards against Canada, btw. And Krutov was definitely not slow or out of shape.

Watch some video instead of making assumptions.
The things that you are talking about are physically impossible for a man of Krutov's physical stature to perform at a high level for long periods of time in a row, particularly the skating. If he was indeed doing all those things so well without any sign of tiring, I'm going to have to subscribe to Sturminator's steroids theory, unfortunately.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:43 PM
  #45
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Johnny, you are up in 7 minutes. Nighthawks' clock technically expires at 6:50 based on the time that Vezina was taken.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:46 PM
  #46
Hawkey Town 18
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Johnny, you are up in 7 minutes. Nighthawks' clock technically expires at 6:50 based on the time that Vezina was taken.
Sounds good. I'm ready

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:49 PM
  #47
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Nighthawks' time is up. Johnny, go.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:50 PM
  #48
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New deal posted up with Chaos. Depends on the guy he wants being there.

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:51 PM
  #49
Hawkey Town 18
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When I went back and looked at last year's ATD draft I was shocked to see how late this guy was taken. We feel that this is a much more appropriate spot for him...

The Chicago Steelers are very pleased to select RW, Mark Recchi

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Old
02-19-2011, 05:54 PM
  #50
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*crosses fingers*

chaos, you're up.

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