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ATD 2011 Draft Thread V

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:11 AM
  #726
Nalyd Psycho
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5'6 was not particularly short for the era.

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:12 AM
  #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Gwinnett's top unit powerplay is not complete:

Foyston - Boucher - Heatley
Coffey - Boucher

...which allows us to drop Hooley Smith down to the second unit, saving him icetime for the first unit penalty kill. Heatley will be the unit's net man, and he's a very good one - 4 times top-5 in powerplay goals and 6 times top-10.

Now that I've taken Heatley I'll point out what I've wanted to for some time, that being the very healthy upward pressure on scoringline players in this draft due to the expansion of the league. It was always strange to me in the past to see high-end offensive forwards like Heatley and Hossa sink deep into the 300's while guys who were basically grinders were picked ahead of them, but when the draft was only around 30 teams a lot of franchises were already starting their third lines before names like Heatley and Hossa came up, and so they fell further than they really should. At 40 teams, there's much more of a mad scramble to fill those offensive roles, and the players who can do so are rightly moving up in the draft.
Leclair-Morenz-Lindros
Hollet-Goodfellow

I've got ya beat as far as 1st unit PP's go.

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02-23-2011, 04:14 AM
  #728
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Highly debatable. Bondra scored a lot of shorties throughout his career, and I don't think anyone in their right mind should use him on an ATD penalty kill, so that takes him down a notch right there. Bondra also enjoyed better service at even strength than Kovalchuk, who is able to produce what he produces more or less alone. You're right, though, that Bondra is arguably better.
It's close. My point was you stated Kovalchuk was clearly best goalscorer availiable - well he wasn't.

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:17 AM
  #729
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
Just wondering (in all honesty), what do you think of Tremblay's WHA years? I have a post in my bio from you, a few years ago, saying that Tremblay's WHA career essentially means that he played 8 seasons of top-5 Norris level hockey. Is he just a circumstantial exception to "I ruthlessly exclude", or have your thoughts changed since then?
It's an exception due to the fact that I saw Tremblay (and Stapleton, to whom this also somewhat applies) play in the WHA with my own eyes.

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02-23-2011, 04:21 AM
  #730
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
5'6 was not particularly short for the era.
Was he really 5'6"? I had the impression he was much shorter. Did he really play in a tougher league than Tommy Phillips? I thought Bowie was even before Phillips' time. I'll have to read your profile on him. It may change my mind. I know the superlatives on Bowie, and if he's really a decent size (and 5'6" in that period would be no smaller than Zetterberg today) and was a contemporary of Phillips, I suppose we have to take him seriously as a second liner.

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02-23-2011, 04:22 AM
  #731
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Was he really 5'6"? I had the impression he was much shorter. Did he really play in a tougher league than Tommy Phillips? I thought Bowie was even before Phillips' time. I'll have to read your profile on him. It may change my mind. I know the superlatives on Bowie, and if he's really a decent size (and 5'6" in that period would be no smaller than Zetterberg today) and was a contemporary of Phillips, I suppose we have to take him seriously as a second liner.
Yes, he played at the same time as Phillips and yes he played in a superior league. Bowie played in the same league as the top teams from southern Ontario and Quebec which morphed into the NHA when it became fully professional. Phillips played in a northwestern league and then bounced around professional leagues.

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:25 AM
  #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Leclair-Morenz-Lindros
Hollet-Goodfellow

I've got ya beat as far as 1st unit PP's go.
Hmmm...perhaps. Your unit certainly has more beef, though mine will control the puck in a way that yours cannot. Very dangerous powerplay, though. It will murder teams that lack physically strong penalty killers.

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02-23-2011, 04:27 AM
  #733
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Hmmm...perhaps. Your unit certainly has more beef, though mine will control the puck in a way that yours cannot. Very dangerous powerplay, though. It will murder teams that lack physically strong penalty killers.
Morenz is an underrated playmaker and obviously can control the puck on a dime. Lindros was a bull but he also had fantastic puck handling ability and playmaking.

It feels good to have a complete unit though doesn't it, welcome to the club.

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02-23-2011, 04:32 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Yes, he played at the same time as Phillips and yes he played in a superior league. Bowie played in the same league as the top teams from southern Ontario and Quebec which morphed into the NHA when it became fully professional. Phillips played in a northwestern league and then bounced around professional leagues.
Ok. Bowie centering your second line is interesting. I would have expected you to go for more of a power center for the unit. Moore - Bowie - Cournoyer is very fast, but that makes Dickie Moore quite clearly your primary puckwinner next to a couple of shrimps, which I think is a dangerous role for him. Moore can certainly win battles along the boards for you, but he was also a guy who was notorious for getting physically worn down, and I think using Dickie well means protecting him a bit. In your shoes, I might give serious thought to moving Moore up to the top line and drafting a power left winger for your second unit while you still can. Dickie as the tough guy on that line is liable to get beaten into a bloody pulp.

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02-23-2011, 04:34 AM
  #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Ok. Bowie centering your second line is interesting. I would have expected you to go for more of a power center for the unit. Moore - Bowie - Cournoyer is very fast, but that makes Dickie Moore quite clearly your primary puckwinner next to a couple of shrimps, which I think is a dangerous role for him. Moore can certainly win battles along the boards for you, but he was also a guy who was notorious for getting physically worn down, and I think using Dickie well means protecting him a bit. In your shoes, I might give serious thought to moving Moore up to the top line and drafting a power left winger for your second unit while you still can. Dickie as the tough guy on that line is liable to get beaten into a bloody pulp.
That might be a good idea. I'll have to see who's available. I had an idea for the 1st line, but I haven't looked to see who could do that.

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:37 AM
  #736
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Morenz is an underrated playmaker and obviously can control the puck on a dime. Lindros was a bull but he also had fantastic puck handling ability and playmaking.
It was a relative statement. Your unit can handle the puck quite well, but that doesn't put them on the same level.

It is nice to have the top powerplay unit complete, though. It seems that every unit and every pick is a struggle at 40 teams, but I'm quite happy with how the powerplay unit turned out.

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Old
02-23-2011, 04:38 AM
  #737
tony d
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Thanks to Boy Wonder for making our pick.

Rick Tocchet:



- 3+ Seasons of 40 Goals
- 952 points in 1144 career games
- Renowned Power Forward

More on Tocchet can be found here:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=11641

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Old
02-23-2011, 05:04 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
How do you begin to rank a player who had 239 goals in 80 games when the competition was that pathetic?
As I've said before, it's not like Bowie played in the 1500s here. Bowie's career overlaps with many excellent players.

First, you've got Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Hod Stuart, Harvey Pulford and Alf Smith, who would normally be considered Bowie's peers.

Second, you have the guys who were starting to break in while Bowie was winding down his career. Cyclone Taylor, Newsy Lalonde, Joe Malone, Sprague Ceghorn, Moose Johnson, Frank and Lester Patrick, and many others who will be drafted here.

All of those above guys, plus many more who will end up in top-6 roles, were playing top level hockey at the same time as Russell Bowie. How can you say his competition was pathetic?

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02-23-2011, 05:12 AM
  #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Leclair-Morenz-Lindros
Hollet-Goodfellow

I've got ya beat as far as 1st unit PP's go.
I'm not sure mine will look like this in the end, but I finally have enough players to put a untin together

Alf Smith - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Ray Bourque - Hod Stuart

With Smith and Ullman, I fell very confident that we'l be able to dominate the corners and boards as well as the slot. With Bourque and Bathgate, I've got some pretty elite offensive weapons.... and Stuart is no slouch either.

It's not the most offensively dynamic group of players, but I think they'll be effective.

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Old
02-23-2011, 05:17 AM
  #740
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
All of those above guys, plus many more who will end up in top-6 roles, were playing top level hockey at the same time as Russell Bowie. How can you say his competition was pathetic?
Are you serious? Just look at average GPG, roster size, games played, and number of teams. Personally, I do not think players who played in 1898–99 season can be fairly compared to other ATD players.
I mean Bowie played 10 games per season..maximum. He even scored 39 goals in those 10 games. Sounds like pond hockey.
He wasn't even professional hockey player.

I have no idea how would I rank such a player.

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Old
02-23-2011, 05:27 AM
  #741
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
Are you serious? Just look at average GPG, roster size, games played, and number of teams. Personally, I do not think players who played in 1898–99 season can be fairly compared to other ATD players.
I mean Bowie played 10 games per season..maximum. He even scored 39 goals in those 10 games. Sounds like pond hockey.
Average GPG wasn't much different than any other high scoring era. Only a few games appear to be out of whack.

I picked the 1901 season ast random, and here are all the scores that season:
5-5, 2-3, 4-2, 3-2, 2-2, 4-10, 7-14, 4-3, 9-3, 3-5, 5-6, 5-4, 2-1, 1-2, 0-4, 13-3, 1-0, 3-1, 8-5, 3-9

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Old
02-23-2011, 05:57 AM
  #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm not sure mine will look like this in the end, but I finally have enough players to put a untin together

Alf Smith - Norm Ullman - Andy Bathgate
Ray Bourque - Hod Stuart

With Smith and Ullman, I fell very confident that we'l be able to dominate the corners and boards as well as the slot. With Bourque and Bathgate, I've got some pretty elite offensive weapons.... and Stuart is no slouch either.
I believe Andy Bathgate's best years were actually spent playing the point on the powerplay, where his stickhandling and right-handed slap shot were deadly weapons. Bourque-Bathgate as pointmen is just stupid good. Stuart would then drop down to the second unit, where he'd be a strong pointman. Or you could use Bathgate as the primary puckhandler down low and Ullman as the slot/net guy, leaving Stuart at the point. I think Andy could fulfill this role, but keep in mind that it was not where he was normally deployed during his career.

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02-23-2011, 06:00 AM
  #743
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Thanks for making my pick, jarek. I'll do a bio on Darragh once I'm home.

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02-23-2011, 06:05 AM
  #744
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What do you think about my 1st PP-unit:

Mahovlich-Barry-Nedomanský
Fetisov-Murphy?

Murphy was great PP QB, nedomanský is great in the slot and will create a lot of traffic in front of the net, so there will be enough space for fetisov, mahovlich and barry.

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Old
02-23-2011, 06:46 AM
  #745
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Prentice may have been the best glue guy left on LW. But he most certainly was NOT the BPA.
I think there's still one player left who would be a better glue guy and I'm very suprised he's not drafted yet, but Prentice is still a nice pick especially when you read seventies bio on him. I almost took this undrafted player over Mike Gartner with my last selection? It will be intresting to see when he goes. I might want to trade up and take him,LOL.

Also nice picks with Bernie Morris(He should be in the hall of fame) as he is very underrated and one of my favorite old-school players. Jack Darragh was a good choice too. He's a fast skater and is one of the clutchest scorers. I also think he gets a little underrated.

All this talk about Russelll Bowie this & that. I personally think he's a fringe top 120 player of all-time and arguably better than Frank McGee. Thats just my opinion, but I like players from those old era's and I consider every era almost equal from an all-time draft stand-point.

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Old
02-23-2011, 06:50 AM
  #746
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This guy is, IMO, the very last guy left in a tier of defensemen that are both elite offensively, as well as strong defensively.

Frank Patrick.

Wait, strong defensively you ask? Cyclone Taylor seemed to think so:



The Patrick brothers.. re-united once again.
Have you read Cyclone Taylor's book "A Hockey Legend" I learned a lot about Frank Patrick and Art Ross from this book. Nice Pick with Patrick

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:03 AM
  #747
TheDevilMadeMe
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BTW Sturm, there goes the player that was better goalscorer than Kovalchuk.
Really? Based on a narrowminded look at his "goals" stats to the exclusion of all else? I don't even view Bondra as THAT much of a triggerman, as so many of his goals were on breakaways (that he isn't going to get against ATD-level defensemen).

Bondra couldn't hold Kovalchuk's jock as an all-round offensive threat. And Kovalchuk is far from an all-round player.

Heatley is actually the guy I was thinking of who was a better all-round offensive player than Kovalchuk, but also primarily a goal scorer.

Edit: I mean, technically you are correct about Bondra's goal scoring numbers. Still, he scored those goals at the exclusion of all else - never top 10 in NHL points for a player who doesn't provide anything but offense.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-23-2011 at 09:11 AM.
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Old
02-23-2011, 09:09 AM
  #748
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What do you think about my 1st PP-unit:

Mahovlich-Barry-Nedomanský
Fetisov-Murphy?

Murphy was great PP QB, nedomanský is great in the slot and will create a lot of traffic in front of the net, so there will be enough space for fetisov, mahovlich and barry.
That PP seems to be lacking a playmaker up front.

And yes everyone, I realize I'm on the clock right now.

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:17 AM
  #749
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I'm not sure yet but my top PP will probably be:

Savard-Gretzky-McDonald
Suter-Lidstrom

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:37 AM
  #750
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Really? Based on a narrowminded look at his "goals" stats to the exclusion of all else? I don't even view Bondra as THAT much of a triggerman, as so many of his goals were on breakaways (that he isn't going to get against ATD-level defensemen).

Bondra couldn't hold Kovalchuk's jock as an all-round offensive threat. And Kovalchuk is far from an all-round player.

Heatley is actually the guy I was thinking of who was a better all-round offensive player than Kovalchuk, but also primarily a goal scorer.

Edit: I mean, technically you are correct about Bondra's goal scoring numbers. Still, he scored those goals at the exclusion of all else - never top 10 in NHL points for a player who doesn't provide anything but offense.
Isn't it your turn to pick?

That said, Bondra was actually the better player too. Yeah Kovalchuk is the better playmaker... and it ends there. Bondra not only was the better goalscorer, he was faster, better defensively and was the better playoff performer.

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