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2011 Trade Deadline Thread II (All General Deadline Talk/Proposals/Blog Rumors here)

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Old
02-22-2011, 10:55 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clitter on the point View Post
How do you figure no chance on Johansen ? Magic 8 ball ? He was one of the last cuts this season, has had a monster season plus showing in the WJC which many were saying may have been the best player on team canada. Porty has stated very defiantly that he expects Johansen on the Jackets next season from discussions he has had. I know from reading your prior posts that your in the camp that no matter how good, he should go back to the juniors, then maybe the ahl. But many first and second year players that have become stars in the league, beg to differ. If he has the skill, and shows to be one of the best players in camp, he will be a jacket.
And why? So he can play on a third-line grinding role? Brassard is still developing, and it would be foolish to put him in that role, not to mention he's not really fit for it. Vermette could play on the third line, but then you have a rookie straight out of juniors who is playing on one of the top two lines.


How many first and second players have come out of our system to have decent years straight out of juniors? Rick Nash obviously being the exception. But we're not talking about a first overall, so the comparison isn't even fair anyway.

Johan should be in the juniors next year. We're seeing the benefit in an extra year right now in Calvert, and that's after two years in junior and a half-season in the AHL. I'm not going to say whether or not Johan should spend another year in the AHL yet, because that's a year and a half away. But as of right now, he should be playing as much as possible, and he hasn't even grown into his frame yet.

You can talk about other players all the time, but what matters is our system and only how we develop players. For every player you say played great in another system after making a jump from juniors I'll give you a Brule or a Picard. You could argue that Voracek and Russell were both rushed.

If we want Johan to develop into a number one C, then he needs to have enough time developing that he can come up and play like Brassard's rookie season or better.

This fanbase makes the same mistakes every year in overestimating the power of our young-guns. Voracek was supposed to be a 70 point player a last season, Brassard was supposed to be an 80 point player last year, and Russell was supposed to be our PMD by now.

Voracek shows sparks but is largely inconsistent and still turns the puck over like Juice. Still goes on long streaks of being invisible.

Brassard has yet to meet the pace of his rookie season.

Russell is still inconsistent, doesn't put up the points that most have expected and isn't as reliable in his own zone.

People expected Moore to make camp, and over half-way through the season, he doesn't look ready for full-time NHL duty after his call-up just recently.

So let's jump another under developed, promising forward into the NHL after one promising year.

You have Johan up next year and you're going to be developing a third-line grinder. You wait at least another year, and you'll have a more developed--both skill-wise and physically--player which could provide a huge boost down the middle. He's not going to be an elite center next year--not even close. The jump from juniors to the NHL huge.

Next year he probably won't be much of a factor and he won't be doing what we drafted him for. (Centering Nash).

In two years, he'll probably be a much bigger difference maker if he spends next year in juniors than in the NHL. Right now there's no need to rush him when Brassard keeps improving and Vermette is a solid second-line center and can step in on the first line without missing much of a step. Why rush such a promising prospect to play on the third line?

By the way, Filatov, who was initially rated higher than Johan, says hello... and smirks.

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02-22-2011, 11:09 PM
  #252
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I definitely don't agree with much of what you said.

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Old
02-22-2011, 11:11 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
If you're talking straight-out-of-juniors, Jared Boll and Jakub Voracek would like to have a word with you, and so the suggestion is inaccurate.

If you're talking right-after-drafting (in which Nash does indeed stand alone in Jackets history), Johansen is already disqualified and so the suggestion is meaningless.
Comparing Boll to Johan is comparing apples an oranges. You expect Boll to agitate and play 6-8 minutes a night. You expect Johan to show the beginnings of a number one center playing 20 minutes a night.

Voracek is in his third year, and sure he's hustled and he's looked good at times, but he has yet to score 20 goals or break 60 points. Not too good for a third-year player who was drafted high in the first round. He's only very recently--in his third year--more consistently shown an potential star ability. And his play just before that was awful. He was invisible and earned subsequent scratches. Is this what you want from Johan after three years in the NHL? Our number-one prospect, alleged number-one center to, after three years, have yet to break 60 points?

Detroit, for example, over develops their players, and it's not a coincidence that they have great development.

Mason, Voracek, and Russell all needed more time, though we didn't have much of a choice with Mason.

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02-22-2011, 11:13 PM
  #254
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I definitely don't agree with much of what you said.
Fair enough,
but is this a disagreement based on gut feeling or do you have an argument or reasons behind your disagreement?

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02-22-2011, 11:16 PM
  #255
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I have an argument for a few of the points. I also don't believe that if Johansen is up next year on the third line that it will be a grinding line. If Johansen earns a spot, key word is earn, it will be to center a third skill line most likely. I don't know if he has much bust potential, he looks from last camp/pre-season to this junior season to be the real deal and probably better than most of us thought he could become. You also brought up Detroit, but you fail to recognize that they really haven't developed a player of significance besides there goalie for a decent amount of years.

My biggest problem with your issues is that you think we don't feel the players need to earn the spot in camp. We all thought or most thought that Moore would earn a spot in camp, he didn't and I think everybody thought he should be sent down. Same will go for Johansen. I also disagree about Voracek, I dont' think at any point this season he was playing bad, he just wasn't finishing any of his chances. I also believe that Voracek is developing very nicely, just because he was drafted in the top 10 doesn't mean that he needs to be putting up 70 and 80 points yet, his game is developing very well. Brassard has been a failure thus far, and Russell I can't comment on because I thought we should have dumped him a few years ago because I don't see anything promising about his game play.


Last edited by Doug19: 02-22-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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Old
02-23-2011, 12:18 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
I have an argument for a few of the points. I also don't believe that if Johansen is up next year on the third line that it will be a grinding line. If Johansen earns a spot, key word is earn, it will be to center a third skill line most likely. I don't know if he has much bust potential, he looks from last camp/pre-season to this junior season to be the real deal and probably better than most of us thought he could become. You also brought up Detroit, but you fail to recognize that they really haven't developed a player of significance besides there goalie for a decent amount of years.

My biggest problem with your issues is that you think we don't feel the players need to earn the spot in camp. We all thought or most thought that Moore would earn a spot in camp, he didn't and I think everybody thought he should be sent down. Same will go for Johansen. I also disagree about Voracek, I dont' think at any point this season he was playing bad, he just wasn't finishing any of his chances. I also believe that Voracek is developing very nicely, just because he was drafted in the top 10 doesn't mean that he needs to be putting up 70 and 80 points yet, his game is developing very well. Brassard has been a failure thus far, and Russell I can't comment on because I thought we should have dumped him a few years ago because I don't see anything promising about his game play.
I agree with everything except this. Honestly, Brassard has been pretty damn close to a number 1 center. As close as we have gotten imo. He has been improving every game and then he got injured. Some players need second opportunities and injuries have really held him back. He has looked like the player we all hope he would become this year. Doing even the simple things like standing up for teammates. Kid plays hard and has done a fine job with Jake and Nash next to him so far this year. As for Jake, he'll be putting up 70 soon enough. He needs to learn to finish a bit more and that imo, will be the day he turns the corner...

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Old
02-23-2011, 12:34 AM
  #257
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I think Radek Martinek could be decent upgrade to our defense if he's healthy. Wouldnt cost much and he's a pretty good underrated defenseman.

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02-23-2011, 01:21 AM
  #258
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I still don't see Brassard ever being a reliable top line center, and I certainly don't believe he is the best center on this team. Vermette is the closest thing we have gotten to a first line center in my opinion.

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02-23-2011, 02:10 AM
  #259
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is jakub vorerck avaliable?

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Old
02-23-2011, 07:59 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
I still don't see Brassard ever being a reliable top line center, and I certainly don't believe he is the best center on this team. Vermette is the closest thing we have gotten to a first line center in my opinion.
Do you even watch the games? Brassard is the best offensive center on the team and the best option to put with Nash. He has worked hard on his areas of weakness and it is apparent to me. I still think Johan will be our #1 center of the future. Honestly in a few years I see Brassard as a Vermette mold on the second line with more offense.

He already is better offensively than Vermette and getting better defensively.

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02-23-2011, 08:09 AM
  #261
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is jakub vorerck avaliable?
Barring a significant overpayment, he's unavailable

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02-23-2011, 08:12 AM
  #262
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So, any trade rumor discussion or is this now a Johansen thread?

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02-23-2011, 08:13 AM
  #263
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Brassard has 39 points....once he gets around 80-90 points, i'll put the 1st line center tag on him. And for those thinking about Johanson playing up here next year, you really think he's going to come in and beat out Vermette, Brassard, and Pahlsson when he wont even be old enough to play in the AHL? I highly doubt that.

As to the thread, I really wish we would get someone soon to add to this team...theyre making it interesting, but why wait to see if we might make it? Make a move with some draft picks and improve that chance, if we dont make any moves and we miss out, Howson should be tarred and feathered for sitting on his hands

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02-23-2011, 08:15 AM
  #264
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Brassard has 39 points....once he gets around 80-90 points, i'll put the 1st line center tag on him. And for those thinking about Johanson playing up here next year, you really think he's going to come in and beat out Vermette, Brassard, and Pahlsson when he wont even be old enough to play in the AHL? I highly doubt that.

As to the thread, I really wish we would get someone soon to add to this team...theyre making it interesting, but why wait to see if we might make it? Make a move with some draft picks and improve that chance, if we dont make any moves and we miss out, Howson should be tarred and feathered for sitting on his hands
Last year, 7 centers eclipsed 80 points. Perhaps your expectations are a bit too high.

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02-23-2011, 08:20 AM
  #265
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is jakub vorerck avaliable?

If you believe Palinka he probably is. Be prepared to be a hockey bride, though.

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The "party boy" factor is something that always has to be considered when it comes to young players; a few grow out of it quickly, a few don't.

In defense of Voracek, I think a lot of his off-ice issues can be directly traced back to one red-afroed defenseman. Voracek is someone who wants to be with his friends; if one wants to go out and have a nice dinner, he'll go along if that friend gets there first. If someone wants to go out and get blazed until 5 AM before stumbling back, he'll do that if that friend gets him first. Zherdev was the opposite; if his only option was to go out, he'd rather eat a TV dinner by himself and watch a movie.

Voracek has played dramatically better since Commodore was kicked to the curb. Part of it was a wake-up call that he could be next, and part of it was because it removed someone who always seemed to get to him first for the evening's entertainment.

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02-23-2011, 08:47 AM
  #266
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And what do you think about Andreas Lilja? I do not know is he enough moving or not?

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02-23-2011, 08:48 AM
  #267
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So, any trade rumor discussion or is this now a Johansen thread?
It's now another useless debate on the differences of the classes of centers (1st line/elite/franchise) as well as where Johansen is going to play next year. Guess I'll look elsewhere for rumors and just use this forum to read the comments if a deal actually does occur.

I was guilty, to a certain extent, by bringing up Howson again. But to my defense it really was mostly to have Palinka defend the position that the Dallas/Pitts deal was crazy. I've seen a lot worse trades.

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02-23-2011, 08:51 AM
  #268
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And what do you think about Andreas Lilja? I do not know is he enough moving or not?
Another body with playoff experience. Beyond that, I don't think anything about him.

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02-23-2011, 08:54 AM
  #269
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As mentioned elsewhere, this morning's Dispatch quoted "sources" as saying that, after last night's win, Howson is firmly in "buyer" mode.

We'll see...

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02-23-2011, 09:09 AM
  #270
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As mentioned elsewhere, this morning's Dispatch quoted "sources" as saying that, after last night's win, Howson is firmly in "buyer" mode.

We'll see...
The team, to this point, has done their job. Now we'll see how this translates to Scott Howson as a GM. There is no excuse to not add to our depth, with a minor deal, at the minimum.

I don't expect to have any major pieces moved, just because of the way we are built. The window for that probably passed us when we started winning and probably won't resurface until the off season, unless we get indirectly involved because of cap issues.

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02-23-2011, 09:15 AM
  #271
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The team, to this point, has done their job. Now we'll see how this translates to Scott Howson as a GM. There is no excuse to not add to our depth, with a minor deal, at the minimum.

I don't expect to have any major pieces moved, just because of the way we are built. The window for that probably passed us when we started winning and probably won't resurface until the off season, unless we get indirectly involved because of cap issues.
You held out for six minutes!

That and, seconding everything in this post.

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:43 AM
  #272
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another cog in the process...perhaps belongs in this discussion perhaps it doesn't...saw Porty tweeted we will not hit revenue sharing targets...what factor, if any, does this play into what we do?

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02-23-2011, 09:54 AM
  #273
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You held out for six minutes!

That and, seconding everything in this post.
Pete and mt-svk gave me hope.

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02-23-2011, 10:03 AM
  #274
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Pete and mt-svk gave me hope.
Just doin' our jobs, bb! We deliver.

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02-23-2011, 10:16 AM
  #275
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Frankly, I think the two players were going to see on the move will be Huselius and Klesla. If Howson's going to be a buyer, then the first round pick has to be in play if he's going to acquire the right player(s) for this team. The chemistry with this club is really good right now and you can't mess with that. If we need other players in the mix for trade, I think you can add Clark and Filatov.

Really, I think all the talk of Voracek and Mason on the block may have been true in December and January, but now you can't move them. They're both playing well and are the future of this club.

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