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Old
02-21-2011, 11:23 AM
  #51
NigelTufnel
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Originally Posted by Dexter Doakes View Post
I'd love to bring Schenn, also, but from what I saw at last year's WJC, Kadri looked a lot more dangerous offensively. Schenn is a better all around player, but we desparately need a centre who can provide a scoring punch. Both look like they could be ready to step in next year, but Im not ready to concede that Schenn is that much better than Kadri, if at all. If BB can get Schenn, great, but not at the expense of moving Kadri.
Yeah, like I said before, I have a feeling it comes down to personal opinion here.

Some people prefer the pure offensive skill players and some prefer the all around game. And I think you're right that Kadri looks like the more dangerous offensive players.

Personally, I much prefer the all around type players. My favourite guys in the league right now are Mike Richards, Dustin Brown, Jonathan Toews, guys like that. I think I got spoiled by Leafs like Clark, Gilmour, and Andreychuk, but I can understand why people would prefer the more pure offensive players (the pavel bures, patrick kanes, etc) but that's just not what I like.

So, based on that I think you can see why I'd prefer Schenn over Kadri. And that's why I'd have no problem moving Kadri in a package for Schenn.

That's my personal opinion, and having that does not make me a troll, nor does it make me deserving facepalms and such. (not saying you did that)

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02-21-2011, 11:28 AM
  #52
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as much as speculation for schenn is ridiculous,
Colbourne + boston's 1st + leafs second

seems like a fair trade, no?
Although if LA wants players that will help them make a playoff run I don't see why they would be worried about moving schenn as he won't help them this year in the playoffs.

Why not
Armstrong + boston's 1st + colbourne for Schenn + a 2nd
IMO I would rather give up more roster players now, then give up pieces of our future. To me it seems like that might be a lateral move at best. As good as schenn will be, will he top out higher than armstrong, boston first player, and colbourne? Id rather trade away some current pieces and add to a future core that follows:

Kadri
L. Schenn
Gardiner
Colborne
Aulie
Phaneuf
Kulemin
Reimer

Lets say we keep philis first, and bostons first, and our high ssecond, we are looking at 3 more possible solid additions to that future.
If we bring in Schenn, then we have 3 possible #1/2 centres, and one in kadri who is able to play the wing and be just as dangerous. If you have 4/6 established in this way, IMO its easier to add the missing wingers or dmen to complete the lines than it is to give up more future.

Honestly, I would rather give up Kessel and/or MacArthur in a package to get Schenn and some of LAs other picks / prospects, than future draft picks. If your going to go the youth route and rebuild with top notch talent, then do it right.

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Old
02-21-2011, 11:28 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by NigelTufnel View Post
Wow. So they basically gave up a solid prospect in Aulie to gain some cap space.
eh if you subtract Dion's 6.5 and Kab's 4.25, we'd have over $10 million to spend on guys like Erhoff, Pitkinen and Markov...I'd take any of those guys over Phaneuf any day of the week.

Aulie was good add, and I don't miss Stajan at all, but Phaneuf was a salary dump.

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Old
02-21-2011, 11:28 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
What?? No! TRADE Armstrong?? He's been the biggest leader on this team, far surpassing Phaneuf this year in that regard and with him in the lineup the Leafs are around .644W% team!

C'mon! At some point you have to want to KEEP the players that are winning games for you.

And let's be 100% clear. The LAKs believe they are making the playoffs. They are ONLY trading for players, and they are only moving assets like picks and prospects.

That immediately negates insane offers like Kadri for Schenn. Brown? No way. If a deal goes down between the Leafs and Kings, it involves MacArthur, Grabovski or Kulemin going there for draft picks.

And I wouldn't close a deal like that for two 1sts and a 2nd from LA. They would be late picks and provide little to no benefit to our team in the rebuild process because we would be giving up proven, quality players that fit our rebuild blueprint for random, unproven commodities that, while young, may or may not fit the blueprint.

I do not see any trades happening between LAK and TOR so it's not even worth discussing.
This is why the Leafs would be in the drivers seat in these discussions.

Schenn cannot help the Kings this year, and moving him does not weaken their team.

If Burke didn't want to move Kessel, I agree players who would help the Kings, Kulemin, MacArthur come to mind.

Let's be clear about one thing though.

Kessel > Schenn

Kings have other assets besides Schenn, but I think the reason for dealing with LA would be to land Schenn.

From the looks of it most of their young prospect centers are not big, but perhaps with Colborne in the stable they'd turn some interest to wingers, or centers who play other forward positions.

Kings might have a salary dump or two in addition they need help with.

Kings Prospects:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/csl.php?tid=2672

Bruins Prospects:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/csl.php?tid=31

Anything in there you'd trade MacArthur (FA) for?

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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Old
02-21-2011, 11:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dexter Doakes View Post
Dont want him. Good player, but on a long term contract making 6.6 million.
I honestly see him being delt and it sort of makes sense for Colorado. Build the team around Duchene and E.Johnson.
He only has 3 years left on the contract??? So def not long term... $6.6 is decent for a 1st line center IMO, many peeps on this board would pay $8m for Richards.. He would fit in with Kessel and has connections to Burkie and Wilson with team USA...

if they really are shopping him IMO they would be looking to dump salary and add picks.. By adding other 1st rounders they might be able to move up to 1st overall and get Landeskog to play with Duchene... IMO this trade works for both sides we get a Legit #1 center and the Avs get assets that can turn into a Star player to compliment Duchene.

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Old
02-21-2011, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by hockeystick89 View Post
eh if you subtract Dion's 6.5 and Kab's 4.25, we'd have over $10 million to spend on guys like Erhoff, Pitkinen and Markov...I'd take any of those guys over Phaneuf any day of the week.

Aulie was good add, and I don't miss Stajan at all, but Phaneuf was a salary dump.
I bet you would retract that statement if you actually watched these players play...

Erhoff - Can't hit the net and struggles playing 1st line minutes, doesn't bring much to the table at either end of the ice.

Markov - Great player but made of glass enough said

Pitkinen - I a decent PMD but stuggles in hockey markets because of pressure, great skater but not the best Hockey IQ


I would take Dion over any of these guys

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02-21-2011, 11:40 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rockinz View Post
I bet you would retract that statement if you actually watched these players play...

Erhoff - Can't hit the net and struggles playing 1st line minutes, doesn't bring much to the table at either end of the ice.

Markov - Great player but made of glass enough said

Pitkinen - I a decent PMD but stuggles in hockey markets because of pressure, great skater but not the best Hockey IQ


I would take Dion over any of these guys
Agree.

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Old
02-21-2011, 11:48 AM
  #58
hockeystick89
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Originally Posted by Rockinz View Post
I bet you would retract that statement if you actually watched these players play...

Erhoff - Can't hit the net and struggles playing 1st line minutes, doesn't bring much to the table at either end of the ice.

Markov - Great player but made of glass enough said

Pitkinen - I a decent PMD but stuggles in hockey markets because of pressure, great skater but not the best Hockey IQ


I would take Dion over any of these guys
Why would I make such a statement if I haven't watched the players play? Me thinks you read this forum too much

Disagree STRONGLY about Erhoff. My roommate is a Canucks fan so I watch a lot of their games and the guy is like a mix between Kaberle and Campbell. He can rush the puck, make a great pass, and he has a howitzer. I find it funny that you bring up his struggles with hitting the net when defending Phaneuf ...He really doesn't.

Markov I can agree on but I think it would be worth taking the risk for 1 season.

And I don't know how people can claim Pitkinen doesn't play well in hockey markets... He played well most of his time in Philly and has been great in Carolina up until this season.

Sure, I'd take Phaneuf at $4 million over Markov and Pitkinen, but he currently has a cap hit of $6.5 million for several more seasons. He's just not that good and it doesn't help that dumb and dumber wasted no time handing him the captaincy.

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Old
02-21-2011, 11:55 AM
  #59
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Just something about the B.Schenn love here.

You can blame Burke for that. That year we were doing really bad; but Burke decided to bring in Martin Gerber (goalie) because he wanted to sell tikets to the fans. We finished strong that year and got the 7th overall pick;we might've finished 3rd overall that year if we didn't get Gerber and we would've gotten Duechene instead of Kadri. Or you could've used that pick for B.Schenn.

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Old
02-21-2011, 12:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by zapy View Post
Just something about the B.Schenn love here.

You can blame Burke for that. That year we were doing really bad; but Burke decided to bring in Martin Gerber (goalie) because he wanted to sell tikets to the fans. We finished strong that year and got the 7th overall pick;we might've finished 3rd overall that year if we didn't get Gerber and we would've gotten Duechene instead of Kadri. Or you could've used that pick for B.Schenn.
It was all Boyd Devereaux's fault!

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Old
02-21-2011, 12:08 PM
  #61
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Why would I make such a statement if I haven't watched the players play? Me thinks you read this forum too much

Disagree STRONGLY about Erhoff. My roommate is a Canucks fan so I watch a lot of their games and the guy is like a mix between Kaberle and Campbell. He can rush the puck, make a great pass, and he has a howitzer. I find it funny that you bring up his struggles with hitting the net when defending Phaneuf ...He really doesn't.

Markov I can agree on but I think it would be worth taking the risk for 1 season.

And I don't know how people can claim Pitkinen doesn't play well in hockey markets... He played well most of his time in Philly and has been great in Carolina up until this season.

Sure, I'd take Phaneuf at $4 million over Markov and Pitkinen, but he currently has a cap hit of $6.5 million for several more seasons. He's just not that good and it doesn't help that dumb and dumber wasted no time handing him the captaincy.

It's funny you say a friend says how good he is... My Friend who is a die hard SJ fan was sooo happy when he was traded because of his lack of physicality, shot accuracy, defensive play, hockey iq and pure grit. Ask ur nuck buddy how he likes his play, playing 1st line minutes right now... i guarantee he will tell you he has fallin off a bit and has been exposed frequently and often. When he was playing as a 5th D-man being Hamhuis, Ballard, Bieksa and Edler i admit he was good but thats because he saw the 3rd and 4th liners and played 15min a night. Now he is playing against 1st liners and averaging 22+ min a night due to all the injuries and he is being exposed as an average D-man.

If you have doubts go to the Nuck board and ask how Erhoff has played recently they will tell you.

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Old
02-21-2011, 12:31 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by zapy View Post
Just something about the B.Schenn love here.

You can blame Burke for that. That year we were doing really bad; but Burke decided to bring in Martin Gerber (goalie) because he wanted to sell tikets to the fans. We finished strong that year and got the 7th overall pick;we might've finished 3rd overall that year if we didn't get Gerber and we would've gotten Duechene instead of Kadri. Or you could've used that pick for B.Schenn.
Wow breaking news. You're telling us this like it's something we don't all know?

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Old
02-21-2011, 12:49 PM
  #63
John-Eric Iannicello
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Leafs are working on a contract extension with Clarke MacArthur, but Burke says he could be moved if they can't agree to deal.
Sounds like it's a deadline type of thing. If they don't sign prior to the deadline, he may go to the highest bidder.

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02-21-2011, 12:52 PM
  #64
NigelTufnel
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Sounds like it's a deadline type of thing. If they don't sign prior to the deadline, he may go to the highest bidder.
It kinda reminds of the Moore situation, although Mac is the superior player obv.

But let's see what happens, it could be an interesting week around here.

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02-21-2011, 12:55 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by NigelTufnel View Post
It kinda reminds of the Moore situation, although Mac is the superior player obv.

But let's see what happens, it could be an interesting week around here.
Although, MacArthur is a RFA so he doesn't have to be moved at deadline time.

Even though there isn't a rush, because the value being tossed around so far, it may make sense to sell when it's a buyers market.

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02-21-2011, 12:56 PM
  #66
MoreMogilny
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Sounds like it's a deadline type of thing. If they don't sign prior to the deadline, he may go to the highest bidder.
Interesting. I only want him moved if he brings in a significant return.

He is an RFA, so it isn't as urgent to get him signed, but i guess he would get a bigger return if he is traded now.

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02-21-2011, 12:57 PM
  #67
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Although, MacArthur is a RFA so he doesn't have to be moved at deadline time.

Even though there isn't a rush, because the value being tossed around so far, it may make sense to sell when it's a buyers market.
Oh yeah, wow, thanks man. I was totally going ahead under the impression he was a UFA.

Hmmm....ok, well I think it's still more or less the same situation as it relates to signing vs. trading him. They'll talk about what Mac wants and if it's reasonable, then burke will re-sign him, otherwise he'll be dealt.

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02-21-2011, 12:58 PM
  #68
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Sounds like it's a deadline type of thing. If they don't sign prior to the deadline, he may go to the highest bidder.
If MacArthur wants to remain a Leaf, he better not be too greedy or else Burke will definitely move him. Perhaps 2 years at $2.85 million or 3 years at $2.6 million.

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02-21-2011, 01:05 PM
  #69
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Interesting. I only want him moved if he brings in a significant return.

He is an RFA, so it isn't as urgent to get him signed, but i guess he would get a bigger return if he is traded now.
it is urgent to get him signed. His value is more on the market before the deadline than it will be after the season is over.

This is precisely why Burke is negotiation an extension now, or at least finding out how much it will take to sign him. Because if the price is wrong then he's out of here before the deadline.

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02-21-2011, 01:08 PM
  #70
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Are you suggesting Brown is not a suitable return for Kessel?If you dont like the trades that are being discussed then fine. But don't suggest that I or anybody else is trolling for having an open and honest discussion. That is after all what a discussion board is for.

I realize some people are tired of hearing about Brayden Schenn, but obviously some are not. I and the others talking about this are clearly the latter.

A few other things.

Schenn does not = Kadri. One was picked higher for a reason. I suppose we wont know for a while which one turns out to be the better NHL player, but for you and anyone else to suggest that Kadri and Schenn are the same is ridiculous. If you think the dangles and such that Kadri has over Schenn are more important than the all-around game that Schenn brings, that's fine, just say that, dont come around saying silly things like they = each other.

And why should it be so ridiculous to discuss trading Kessel? What exactly is it about kessel that makes it so off limits to talk about trading him? We gave up a lot to get him? yeah so what? We just got him? We just got versteeg too what of it?
Why would you swap Kessel for Brown. Why have a giant revolving door of players coming and going from this organization.

Buffalo has one bad season so they swap Miller for Bryzgalov? No other organization is swapping as many players as Toronto on a regualr basis. You need to eventually try and find some stability. I don't see Brown providing any greater benefit to this team than Kessel. They are both on pace for roughly 30 goal seasons with 55 points total. You're talking about a name swap only. Neither guy tables anything different than the number of syllables and letters on their jersey.

And Kessel is 23, 3 years younger than Brown. And we already have a leadership circle in the dressing room. Acquiring a 26-year-old captain forces the issue, are we already turning our backs on Dion?. That's a seperate issue I won't touch here.

On to Schenn. What evidence do you have that Schenn is going to be a better all-round forward than Kadri at the NHL level? To me we have two AHL prospects that aren't proving anything as yet. They have similar production in the AHL, and in my opinion Kadri tables more offensive skills than Schenn. The fact that Schenn went higher in the draft (by 2 seeds) is meaningless.

All it means is that Lombardi valued Schenn higher than Kadri, not that Schenn is valued higher than Kadri. Draft picks are very much based on personal preference or a sense of what the needs of the organization will be down the road.

But you can only assume that either of these guys will become anything at this stage. From the reports I've read, Kadri looks much closer to joining the NHL than Schenn. To me it looks like just another situation of a name swap, and here you're talking about adding picks to get Schenn for Kadri. So somehow two players that haven't proven anything one way or the other, you have assessed Kadri as being 1/3rd the quality of Schenn? I don't see any justification for that.

Like I said, the Schenn brothers play different positions. It won't be like the Sedins they will just play their own game. There is no proven statistical record that brothers play better together than on seperate teams.

I understand the points you guys are making, and I considered them, but my umbrage exists because there is no rational basis for the desire to unload a tonne of assets that are working for this club to get assets that are doing the same production in a different city (especially LA because then you have to wonder if they will be able to handle the media in Toronto!).

I wouldn't make any of the trades with LA so far proposed.

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02-21-2011, 01:11 PM
  #71
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it is urgent to get him signed. His value is more on the market before the deadline than it will be after the season is over.

This is precisely why Burke is negotiation an extension now, or at least finding out how much it will take to sign him. Because if the price is wrong then he's out of here before the deadline.
Yeah, that's what i said, his return will be bigger if traded for before the TD.

I just meant it if the overall objective is to get him signed, he is still an RFA so the Leafs should be able to get him signed at any rate.

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02-21-2011, 01:17 PM
  #72
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If MacArthur wants to remain a Leaf, he better not be too greedy or else Burke will definitely move him. Perhaps 2 years at $2.85 million or 3 years at $2.6 million.
Based on just one good year I don't see him doing better than $2.5 which is still a big jump. We don't know how much confidance the club has in his ability to repeat. If he does get dealt, it may be due to that lack of confidance (and Nik Hagman) rather than a change in Burke's building plan. Looking at his previous seasons shooting percentage and points vs ice time I think Mac is for real although not sure if he has much potential for growth.

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02-21-2011, 01:18 PM
  #73
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jonas640 Jonas Siegel
Burke: "We're trying to add by tomorrow if we can. We're trying to put a player in the lineup who can help up as soon as possible."

I'm trying to skyrocket the Goligoski rumours.

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02-21-2011, 01:18 PM
  #74
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Why would you swap Kessel for Brown. Why have a giant revolving door of players coming and going from this organization.

Buffalo has one bad season so they swap Miller for Bryzgalov? No other organization is swapping as many players as Toronto on a regualr basis. You need to eventually try and find some stability. I don't see Brown providing any greater benefit to this team than Kessel. They are both on pace for roughly 30 goal seasons with 55 points total. You're talking about a name swap only. Neither guy tables anything different than the number of syllables and letters on their jersey.

And Kessel is 23, 3 years younger than Brown. And we already have a leadership circle in the dressing room. Acquiring a 26-year-old captain forces the issue, are we already turning our backs on Dion?. That's a seperate issue I won't touch here.

On to Schenn. What evidence do you have that Schenn is going to be a better all-round forward than Kadri at the NHL level? To me we have two AHL prospects that aren't proving anything as yet. They have similar production in the AHL, and in my opinion Kadri tables more offensive skills than Schenn. The fact that Schenn went higher in the draft (by 2 seeds) is meaningless.

All it means is that Lombardi valued Schenn higher than Kadri, not that Schenn is valued higher than Kadri. Draft picks are very much based on personal preference or a sense of what the needs of the organization will be down the road.

But you can only assume that either of these guys will become anything at this stage. From the reports I've read, Kadri looks much closer to joining the NHL than Schenn. To me it looks like just another situation of a name swap, and here you're talking about adding picks to get Schenn for Kadri. So somehow two players that haven't proven anything one way or the other, you have assessed Kadri as being 1/3rd the quality of Schenn? I don't see any justification for that.

Like I said, the Schenn brothers play different positions. It won't be like the Sedins they will just play their own game. There is no proven statistical record that brothers play better together than on seperate teams.

I understand the points you guys are making, and I considered them, but my umbrage exists because there is no rational basis for the desire to unload a tonne of assets that are working for this club to get assets that are doing the same production in a different city (especially LA because then you have to wonder if they will be able to handle the media in Toronto!).

I wouldn't make any of the trades with LA so far proposed.
I'm really not trying to be rude, but that is completely insane. If they're going to score the same amount of points, or thereabouts, as you said, then we should look at the other things they bring to a team. Kessel brings nothing else other than the points he scores, that it, he's the very definition of a one-dimensional player. Brown is a leader, plays strong defensively, hits like a truck, forechecks better, etc. He's also only 3 years older, not some over the hill vet.

So I very much disagree that it would be a swap in name only.

I understand what you're saying about finding some stability, and I'll admit that's a concern for me, but as I said players like Brown (and schenn too if he meets his potential) are my personal preference so I'd be OK with a little bit more turnover if it meant getting one or both of those guys.

Also, nowhere did I ever say that Kadri has 1/3 the value of Schenn. I very clearly stated that I was going on the basis that LA is not motivated to move Schenn AT ALL and to get him would take an overpayment.

I also, of course, realize that Luke and Brayden play different positions, but so did the Niedermayers and that worked out OK

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02-21-2011, 01:20 PM
  #75
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Country: Canada
Posts: 5,518
vCash: 500
Listening to Marlies game, just heard this

"Brian Burke says he's working on something, says he may have a defenseman by tomorrow"

FrozenJagrt is offline  
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