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Dallas trades James Neal and Matt Niskanen to Penguins for Alex Goligoski.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:24 PM
  #76
Ogi1Kenobi
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The East clearly doesn't know how streaky Neal is and how much of a defensive liability Niskanen is.

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02-21-2011, 04:24 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Oddly, the keyboard jockeys on the main boards make me want to go to the Ft. Worth zoo and watch bonobos fling feces at one another...

Ostensibly this trade is Neal for Goligoski+. As piqued pointed out, Niskanen has negative value so Pittsburgh did us a favor. Now, because their defense corps is actually quite solid all around Niskanen could maybe possibly somehow look like a legitimate NHL defenseman again. Who knows. What we know about him is that he was never, ever going to become much better than he had proven to be here the last couple of years.

What I have a hard time understanding is how when the general sentiment on the trade boards regarding a Neal/Gogo swap that there was usually some 3rd round pick or decent but not great prospect coming back with Goligoski. The add-in of Niskanen is a boon to the Stars but by the looks of casual fans you'd think we traded Modano in his prime for the equivalent of Sutherby and a 2nd round pick.
Most of it is no one knows anything about the Stars other than the numbers.

Neal is the quintessential stats guy - his numbers look fabulous but he's frustrating when you actually watch him play. But people don't watch Dallas, so when they look at the stats they go "Holy cow, a 30-40 goal winger!" without realizing that he is so incredibly streaky and mentally absent during key stretches and without realizing that he only plays well with certain teammates. They also don't realize the depth Dallas has at that position.

They look at Niskanen and go "He's had some great seasons for a young guy!" without realizing how worthless in his own end he actually is.

Dallas sending Niskanen is, like you said, the equivalent of receiving a pick in return because of the roster spot saving (i.e., maintaining an open space for Larsen next year even though adding a defenseman) and the cap savings. That's more valuable than a 15-percent-shot-to-ever-make-the-NHL 3rd round pick.

Finally, they fail to realize the return of a top-4 defenseman with any puck-moving ability, particularly one that is signed for another year (and I've seen conflicting reports whether he's RFA or UFA after this contract - obviously RFA is more valuable). You can find sniping wingers fairly regularly in the draft, but it's damn hard to get a puck-moving D with any sort of solid play in his own end. Fowler, for all his points, is what, -30 now?

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02-21-2011, 04:26 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogi1Kenobi View Post
Some Dallas fans just can't see the big picture. It's so sad.

Yes, Dallas overpaid, but at the same time GM Joe managed to rid this team of Niskanen, acquire a young cheap PMD, and cleared 2.5 mil. of salary for next year in order to create leverage for a Brad Richards extension. This just shows Joe overwhelming desire to keep Richards. If Richie bails this summer, then go ahead and cry.

And, Neal is friends with Richards. But, Richards has MUCH more chemistry with Eriksson. Trading Neal won't piss Richards off, especially if he gets Benn on his LW.
This. This. and This.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:26 PM
  #79
Ogi1Kenobi
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Grossman-Robidas
Goligoski-Larsen
Fistric-Daley

This is our D-corps next year, lol. Only 1 is over the age of 30.

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02-21-2011, 04:28 PM
  #80
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I don't really know what to say... I love James Neal.

He's streaky though, and he plays with two of the best forwards in the game.

With that said, I'm not sure if this is the d-man we should have got back for him...

Niskanen is just bad at life in general.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:31 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GLU View Post
Also, Neal's value isn't as high as HFers think league-wide. He has a reputation for being inconsistent (earned) and picking up points against lesser competition (possibly earned -- haven't run the numbers myself).
He has 4 goals and 3 assists in 14 games against the 6 current division leaders.

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02-21-2011, 04:31 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Oddly, the keyboard jockeys on the main boards make me want to go to the Ft. Worth zoo and watch bonobos fling feces at one another...
My sentiments exactly.

Quote:
Ostensibly this trade is Neal for Goligoski+. As piqued pointed out, Niskanen has negative value so Pittsburgh did us a favor.
I'd still say that Neal+ for Goligoski is the trade, but shedding Niskanen's salary was indeed a bonus, and that's what Pittsburgh has taken on in-lieu of a draft pick coming our way.


Quote:
Now, because their defense corps is actually quite solid all around Niskanen could maybe possibly somehow look like a legitimate NHL defenseman again. Who knows. What we know about him is that he was never, ever going to become much better than he had proven to be here the last couple of years.
Again, my sentiments exactly.

Quote:
What I have a hard time understanding is how when the general sentiment on the trade boards regarding a Neal/Gogo swap that there was usually some 3rd round pick or decent but not great prospect coming back with Goligoski. The add-in of Niskanen is a boon to the Stars but by the looks of casual fans you'd think we traded Modano in his prime for the equivalent of Sutherby and a 2nd round pick.
Facts never figure in any discussion regarding sports, so it's no surprise they don't figure in Schadenfreude-laced one-liners.

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02-21-2011, 04:32 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogi1Kenobi View Post
Some Dallas fans just can't see the big picture. It's so sad.

Yes, Dallas overpaid, but at the same time GM Joe managed to rid this team of Niskanen, acquire a young cheap PMD, and cleared 2.5 mil. of salary for next year in order to create leverage for a Brad Richards extension. This just shows Joe overwhelming desire to keep Richards. If Richie bails this summer, then go ahead and cry.

And, Neal is friends with Richards. But, Richards has MUCH more chemistry with Eriksson. Trading Neal won't piss Richards off, especially if he gets Benn on his LW.
We can't see the big picture?

You want to give Nieuwendyk credit for dumping Niskanen? Way to ****ing go, Joe. You were forced to accept less in a trade to fix a clearly avoidable mistake you made in the offseason. They should've held absolutely firm on Niskanen's qualifying offer. Maybe if he was making 900k he wouldn't have ended up being a drain.

We're creating "leverage" to re-sign Richards? I don't think so. We just traded his best friend for someone to replace him on the PP. The lenders didn't have a problem giving Daley an exorbitant contract, you think they weren't going to spring for a revenue-generating, franchise value-inflating Brad Richards? It doesn't matter what the lenders can scrounge together for Nieuwendyk to offer. Richards wants to be on a team that's not a cluster****.

******* this trade sucks.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:32 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Wasn't his original fanboy Jaybot?
Most definitely, dating back to draft day on ADSP.

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02-21-2011, 04:33 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starsfan4ever View Post
Niskanen is just bad at life in general.
I wouldn't say that. He's one of the nicest guys on the team that I've met. Neal on the other hand was an ass every time I've met him.

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02-21-2011, 04:33 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by NathanSeguin View Post
He has 4 goals and 3 assists in 14 games against the 6 current division leaders.
And that's somehow worthy of recognition?

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02-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #87
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The money saved only matters if Richards re-signs if he does not then Niewendyk needs to be fired because he should have traded him.

Niskanen is addition by subtraction. Neal is streaky as hell but I would have preferred a guy like Bogosian. That said I like Goligoski's game but this team still needs an Ehrhoff or someone else like that to transform the defense.

I will say this makes the selection of Campbell an even worse choice. If Folwer was here could Neal have been flipped for something better?

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02-21-2011, 04:39 PM
  #88
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I think I am okay with this: minus streaky Neal and minus Nisky for a quality asset. I hope this lights a fire under them. We still over payed though

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:41 PM
  #89
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I understand the trade and it makes good sense to me....

BUT WHY NEAL WHY ?!?!?!

I really liked that kid, streaky or not.
oh well, I guess I will have to semi-cheer for the Pen's now

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02-21-2011, 04:48 PM
  #90
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Pens fan here;

You guys got a real nice player in Alex Goligoski. The bottom line in Pittsburgh is that he's a 5th defenseman after Martin, Letang, Michalek, and Orpik (who are four excellent d-men), and the Pens have some good young D-men developing so he's a bit of over-kill on the Pens and has become expendable when you have the chance to fill a huge gaping hole (top 6 winger) but he's still a very good offensive d-man and quite an under-rated defensive d-man. While he's not the strongest but he's an excellent puck-mover and very mobile, which is my favourite kind of d-man. I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised!

I saw someone mention that Goose (btw, his nickname is "Goose", he doesn't like "Gogo") is 2-years older but that's in defensemen years. During the life of their contracts (through the 2011-12 season), I think James Neal will turn out to be the better asset but if you guys hang onto him, you might have something special.

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02-21-2011, 04:49 PM
  #91
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My initial reaction is that this is a lateral move for Dallas. It improves, but doesn't fix, the defense, but it creates a hole in the forward depth. I wonder if Joe is looking to make an additional trade to fill the void left by Neal.

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02-21-2011, 04:52 PM
  #92
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It doesn't create a hole in our organization. We have plenty of LW talent. It was our position of strength. Its common knowledge that you deal from your position of strength to acquire a position of weakness. We did that today.

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02-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued View Post
All it takes is watching them to see the chemistry Neal and Richards had and the way they were able to dominate possession in the offensive zone. He did plenty. Eriksson has chemistry with everyone, it doesn't matter whether Richards is here or not.
Eriksson has better chemistry with Richards than Neal did, and that's my point. I never insinuated that Neal did not have any chemistry with his centerman at all.


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Should've been done at the draft.
I agree. We messed up there.


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Oh, great, we saved some ****ing cash. Hooray for our broke team. Maybe that'll give us the flexibility to overpay to retain our own mediocre players. Everything about the Richards situation indicates that ownership is the problem, not money.
It seems like you're cherry-picking one aspect of my argument. Yes, cash was saved and a non-productive player was dumped, but that was not the main focus. We got a PMD- a cup-winning PMD and someone more reliable and stable vis-a-vis PMD skills than any d-man on our squad. You don't see that?


Quote:
And you sure as **** don't trade away a player like Neal using that as any part of the rationale.
Well, look at the odds here:

- Niskanen/Grossman/Daley/Robidas/Fistric/Burish or any of the non-NTC/NMC players or prospects for Goligoski sure wouldn't have gotten it done.

- From the looks of it, Larsson is going to be snatched up by the Oilers or Senators. Bupkis on that!

- In addition, Ehrhoff, Seabrook and other RFA/UFA d-men are NOT going to be allowed to graze the pastures by their respective teams to be swooped up by vultures.


We messed up on Fowler and it had to come to this.

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02-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #94
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Does anybody know if archived game log stats exist for Neal's OHL days? I'm really interested to have a look to satisfy my curiousity regarding Neal's NHL and pre-NHL scouting report concerning his inconsistency. For my part, I can live with a guy who gives a consistent effort but who doesn't get the bounces consistently; the problem with Neal is that when he is on his cold streaks he looks like his confidence level is only slightly above Niskanen's baseline confidence level. Like most scorers, he clearly thrives on producing offense. The problem is that when he's not getting the bounces he becomes a shell of himself at his best. You can literally see him trying on certain shifts within games. It's a cliché, but when Neal isn't scoring he isn't helping.

Also, it's not fair to sit here and ***** and moan about this trade coming too late (Neal) or it being some sort of make-good for earlier poor decisions (Niskanen contract this summer). I've been as hard on JN as anybody but it's not productive to say he should've done this and should've done that, especially if his scouts are telling him that Neal's stock, while not as high as it once was, may continue to go down. Saying you should've sold a stock when it reached it's peak is a 'no **** sherlock' thing, but making sure that your prior lack of decisiveness doesn't hinder your ability to help you in some way shows an ability to learn from recent past mistakes. Jon Daniels made some clunker trades early in his GM career but he didn't let those stop him from making some tough decisions and pull the trigger in the future. Life goes on, we can't constantly be stuck in the past.

Who "wins" this trade largely depends on Neal's mental fortitude IMO. If he somehow learns to put in a consistent effort in all areas of the ice on a shift to shift, game to game basis then Goligoski would have to turn into the second coming of Sergei Zubov to even things out.

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Old
02-21-2011, 04:54 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
I will say this makes the selection of Campbell an even worse choice. If Folwer was here could Neal have been flipped for something better?
No (in terms of could Neal have been flipped for something better). The only thing that would have driven Neal's value up is if Neal cut out the streakiness.

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02-21-2011, 04:55 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Ogi1Kenobi View Post
Some Dallas fans just can't see the big picture. It's so sad.

Yes, Dallas overpaid, but at the same time GM Joe managed to rid this team of Niskanen, acquire a young cheap PMD, and cleared 2.5 mil. of salary for next year in order to create leverage for a Brad Richards extension. This just shows Joe overwhelming desire to keep Richards. If Richie bails this summer, then go ahead and cry.

And, Neal is friends with Richards. But, Richards has MUCH more chemistry with Eriksson. Trading Neal won't piss Richards off, especially if he gets Benn on his LW.
This isn't about leverage for Richards. The money is there both in cap and real dollars for Richards to sign right now and it was before the trade. Richards wants to see stable ownership. I don't think it'll help him to resign losing a linemate either.

This is about Nieuwendyk overpaying for a skill set he wanted and ignoring the fact Goligoski is an undersized fifth defenceman and power-play specialist. To add in a former first round pick in Niskanen (whether he developed or not) is just insulting to our intelligence, especially a team that keeps saying it is drafting well (it hasn't for some time).

The worst thing is that with Benn and Burish hurt, the wing depth is decimated and Neal is one of the only forwards the Stars had who was capable of striking fear into anyone... and now he's undersold. Look at Versteeg, look at Chris Stewart, etc. and tell me honestly he got value back. You can't.

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02-21-2011, 04:56 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
No (in terms of could Neal have been flipped for something better). The only thing that would have driven Neal's value up is if Neal cut out the streakiness.
In which case he'd never be dealt.

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02-21-2011, 04:57 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
We got a PMD- a cup-winning PMD and someone more reliable and stable vis-a-vis PMD skills than any d-man on our squad.
So being a fifth defenceman on a Cup winner makes him a valuable asset?

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02-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #99
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Who do we have other than Morrow who can play LW on the top two lines? You move Benn to LW that creates a hole on the right side, and Ott is better suited to the third line. The team has some nice prospects but none of them are ready to step up right now. Just seems like this deal would make more sense during the off season.

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02-21-2011, 05:01 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
In which case he'd never be dealt.
My exact thoughts when I read Kritter's post.

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