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#60: Coyotes @ Flyers - Tuesday, Feb. 22, 2011 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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02-22-2011, 10:43 PM
  #576
smacklby
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Originally Posted by phillyflu View Post


Typical, philly fans on goaltending.
lol....

but, I dont know what he was thinking on that second one!

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02-22-2011, 10:45 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
No. The puck is probably going 70 miles an hour. It is going along the ice. If the puck hits something on the ice and heads for a spot an inch above the top edge of your pad, it is going to go in. Human reflexes are not reacting to that, particularly when the e goalie is already executing a save for a puck shot along the ice. It was a bad break.

Some people might be of the opinion that you should have your blocker there to "back your pad up", but its tough to do that and keep your blade in front of the five hole, which is more important IMO, since the puck was shot along the ice.

It was an unfortunate bounce. That's about all there was to it.
70 mph? It was a weak wrist shot on the ground. Are human relexes supposed to stop a 100 mph shot from the point? I know the goaltender's reflexes better be able to do that. Regardless, Bob was simply out of position on that which is inexcusable.

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02-22-2011, 10:45 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
Nope, I can't agree on the Upshall didnt board him. I understand he was a favorite when he played here; but he has always played aggressively and sometimes too aggressively; that's just the way he plays; but to say he didn't board him, I cannot agree at all. Bartulis had his head down, a few feet away from the boards, and was in a vulnerable position at the time Upshall hit him hard and high, causing Bartulis to fly dangerously into the boards: that is boarding: hitting a player a few feet away from the boards in a manner that causes the player to go into the boards dangerously.....
I can definitely see how you feel that way about it. Scotty could've pulled up...sure. I just don't think he was necessarily obligated to there. Agree to disagree.

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02-22-2011, 10:46 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
But on the other hand, great goalies find ways to steal some games for their team, and Bryz is one of the best in the league. I agree that having depth is no reason to not try and bring it every game, but I didn't see a poor team effort tonight. A couple players may have had bad individual games, but overall the team did what they had to to win, most nights.
Everything you said is true, but, fact remains the Flyers goaltenders haven't done exactly what you're talking about all season. When this team doesn't score 3 or more goals, they tend to let other teams hang around that are much less talented then them and steal points. Now i'm not trying to say Booch and Bob need to be top 5 goaltenders, b.c they're not. But frankly as a team that expects to win it all, they damn well might need that type of goaltending once in a while, and its only been obvious for the other 31 teams in this league for how many years now...

We lost the cup on a fluke goal, what we saw tonight was a fluke goal. We've had shaky - at best goaltending for several weeks now and if there's a time to correct that before a playoff push, its right now.

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02-22-2011, 10:49 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
its ok, give him props for figuring out the Multi-quote feature so early in his posting history. But you can minus a few points for drinking the cool-aid that philly fans in general have been drinking for the past 30 years in thinking that your best player might not have to be your goalie (like QB in football surprise, surprise eagles fans) to win the championship... it gets stale after so many years and you look for other less obvious scape goats.
So you're saying your goalie has to be your best player?

2006: Cam Ward. Better than Eric Staal?
2007: JS Giguere. Amazing run, but more pivotal than Pronger and Neidermayer?
2008: Chris Osgood. Better than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom?
2009: Marc-Andre Fleury. Better than Crosby and Malkin?
2010: Antti Niemi. Better than Toews, Kane, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, Sharp, Byfuglien?

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02-22-2011, 10:58 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
70 mph? It was a weak wrist shot on the ground. Are human relexes supposed to stop a 100 mph shot from the point? I know the goaltender's reflexes better be able to do that.
It's clear now that you don't know what you're talking about.

A: When someone takes a 100mph slapper from the point, you usually aren't moving on it at all. That shot is usually behind you by the time you're done flinching. The fastest shooter I ever played against shot mid-90's and it was ridiculous. I couldn't do anything but skate out to him, butterfly and hope he hit me.

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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Regardless, Bob was simply out of position on that which is inexcusable.
The puck went right by his right thigh and just over his pad as he was sliding towards it. He was in position, it just hopped off the ice twenty feet away from him. Let's say it was doing 60mph then...so what, it's still not something you're going to adjust to with in twenty feet. At that speed, from that distance he had about .23 seconds to not only react to it, but move his hand to the puck. Average people need about half a second to react to something. Good athletes who are actively waiting an event (hitters in baseball, goalies, tennis players awaiting a serve) tend to start moving in response to that event (i.e. begin to react) in around .3 seconds.

So give it a rest, or buy Bob a time machine.

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02-22-2011, 11:00 PM
  #582
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any word on bartulis?

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02-22-2011, 11:08 PM
  #583
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What bugs me the most about this team is how they inexplicably complicate clearning the puck from their own zone. Why do they insist on retreating behind the net when they are facing up-ice with no pressure? Time after time, the defense starts messing around with the puck, passing back and forth below the goal line, and so often they get into trouble and cough it up to the other team. Case in point in OT, Timonen had the puck deep and tried a little flip through the Coyote player, turns it over and takes a penalty. Yes, it was weak, but the opportunity should not have even happened.

Watching the Hawks - Penguins game last Sunday, I was paying particular attention to defensive puck control and breakouts. Both teams were very consistent in getting control, playing it away from offensive pressure, making short passes to teammates with forward momentum, and getting out smartly.

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02-22-2011, 11:10 PM
  #584
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The hate on Bob for the second goal is silly. Bouncers right before they get to you are the knuckle ball of hockey -- you know it came from the guy who shot it, but you've got no idea where it went or where it's about to end up.

If anyone wants to be angry at a goalie tonight, shoot the hate at Bryzgalov. The guy's been a madman for weeks now, we were simply another victim tonight.

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02-22-2011, 11:11 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
What bugs me the most about this team is how they inexplicably complicate clearning the puck from their own zone. Why do they insist on retreating behind the net when they are facing up-ice with no pressure? Time after time, the defense starts messing around with the puck, passing back and forth below the goal line, and so often they get into trouble and cough it up to the other team. Case in point in OT, Timonen had the puck deep and tried a little flip through the Coyote player, turns it over and takes a penalty. Yes, it was weak, but the opportunity should not have even happened.

Watching the Hawks - Penguins game last Sunday, I was paying particular attention to defensive puck control and breakouts. Both teams were very consistent in getting control, playing it away from offensive pressure, making short passes to teammates with forward momentum, and getting out smartly.
Good observation. Maybe they have specific transition plays they want to run, and they're trying to get the timing/speed of everyone right as they go into the neutral zone? That's the only reason I could think of.

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02-22-2011, 11:15 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
70 mph? It was a weak wrist shot on the ground. Are human relexes supposed to stop a 100 mph shot from the point? I know the goaltender's reflexes better be able to do that. Regardless, Bob was simply out of position on that which is inexcusable.
When they can see the puck all the way? Yeah. When they can't, like when a last second bouncer goes their way? Likely to be a goal. He really wasn't out of position. You're harping on stuff you sound pretty unaware about.

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02-22-2011, 11:19 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
It's clear now that you don't know what you're talking about.

A: When someone takes a 100mph slapper from the point, you usually aren't moving on it at all. That shot is usually behind you by the time you're done flinching. The fastest shooter I ever played against shot mid-90's and it was ridiculous. I couldn't do anything but skate out to him, butterfly and hope he hit me.
Maybe that's why you aren't in the NHL. NHL goalies face 90+ mph shots multiple times every game, many of which are one timers which they cannot afford to simply "not move at all" and "hope it hits them." A goalie in this league is expected to make that save and it baffles me that you won't admit it.

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02-22-2011, 11:30 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Maybe that's why you aren't in the NHL. NHL goalies face 90+ mph shots multiple times every game, many of which are one timers which they cannot afford to simply "not move at all" and "hope it hits them." A goalie in this league is expected to make that save and it baffles me that you won't admit it.
It baffles me you think goalies simply don't try to challenge and merely hope it hits them when it's going to be 100 miles per hour. I don't think you realize or appreciate the goaltending position nearly enough. These guys are humans with freakish reactions, not freaks with exceptional reactions. The only time they (or any goalie) could be "expected" to make that save is if it's 1-on-1, they can challenge, and don't have to move beyond that.

That's about 4/10 of a second they have to pick up on it, without having to account for movement or screens. Get real, dude.

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02-22-2011, 11:31 PM
  #589
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To put it into perspective, in most human beings, the chemical impulses that travel through the nervous system travel at around 120mph. If the puck is going 100 mph...well, do the math. if you have to do more than twitch, it isn't likely to get stopped.

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02-22-2011, 11:35 PM
  #590
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
It baffles me you think goalies simply don't try to challenge and merely hope it hits them when it's going to be 100 miles per hour. I don't think you realize or appreciate the goaltending position nearly enough. These guys are humans with freakish reactions, not freaks with exceptional reactions. The only time they (or any goalie) could be "expected" to make that save is if it's 1-on-1, they can challenge, and don't have to move beyond that.

That's about 4/10 of a second they have to pick up on it, without having to account for movement or screens. Get real, dude.
It was a 1-1 shot. In fact, it was a weak 1-1 shot that was taken from the outside hashmark. Bob was trying to be fancy and kick it away instead of stopping it. Even the announcers agreed.

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02-22-2011, 11:45 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
It was a 1-1 shot. In fact, it was a weak 1-1 shot that was taken from the outside hashmark. Bob was trying to be fancy and kick it away instead of stopping it. Even the announcers agreed.
In lavys post game int. he said it looked like a weird/tough bounce, its a goal that shouldnt have went in obviously, but it handcuffed him...those things happen. I had a bad feeling about the game after we hit about 4 posts, and bryz robbed about 3 other goals, it always seems to come back and bite you

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02-22-2011, 11:46 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
It was a 1-1 shot. In fact, it was a weak 1-1 shot that was taken from the outside hashmark. Bob was trying to be fancy and kick it away instead of stopping it. Even the announcers agreed.
Only I was talking about your totally bogus statement of a goalie being expected to stop a 90+ MPH shot. Besides, the only thing the announcers came to agree on was that it bounced right before it got to Bob. It was like a squirrel running in front of your car at the last nanosecond -- that thing's nearly guaranteed to die. Same story with the second goal tonight...the action of the puck bouncing at the very last moment is almost always going to be a goal. It's just like a deflection, there's no way to account for it.

By the way, "being fancy" and trying to kick it away and trying to stop it are the same damn thing. Bob screwed up with a lot of puckhandling tonight, but the second goal wasn't one of those times.

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02-22-2011, 11:48 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Orangecrush18 View Post
In lavys post game int. he said it looked like a weird/tough bounce, its a goal that shouldnt have went in obviously, but it handcuffed him...those things happen. I had a bad feeling about the game after we hit about 4 posts, and bryz robbed about 3 other goals, it always seems to come back and bite you
I don't disagree. It was one of those tough bounces that get by every once in awhile. However, I stand firm on my position that it was a shot that Bob should have saved.

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02-22-2011, 11:49 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
It was a 1-1 shot. In fact, it was a weak 1-1 shot that was taken from the outside hashmark. Bob was trying to be fancy and kick it away instead of stopping it. Even the announcers agreed.
You're not addressing the fact that it changed direction about twenty feet in front of him and pretty much had eyes to get through his 6 hole.

He was trying to be fancy by dropping into the butterfly and letting a puck hit him in the pad? What is the non-fancy way to make that save, because that's about as established and agreed upon a goaltending technique as there is.

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02-22-2011, 11:54 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
To put it into perspective, in most human beings, the chemical impulses that travel through the nervous system travel at around 120mph. If the puck is going 100 mph...well, do the math. if you have to do more than twitch, it isn't likely to get stopped.
I hope this doesn't come across as bragging, as I'm hoping for a generalization, but goaltenders can sometimes see where a shooter is going with shoulder / wrist / stick angle. It lets you get the trapper or the pad going in the right direction, and after that it's adjustment. Goaltenders rarely make a save coming out of a stopped stance.

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02-22-2011, 11:54 PM
  #596
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Only I was talking about your totally bogus statement of a goalie being expected to stop a 90+ MPH shot. Besides, the only thing the announcers came to agree on was that it bounced right before it got to Bob. It was like a squirrel running in front of your car at the last nanosecond -- that thing's nearly guaranteed to die. Same story with the second goal tonight...the action of the puck bouncing at the very last moment is almost always going to be a goal. It's just like a deflection, there's no way to account for it.

By the way, "being fancy" and trying to kick it away and trying to stop it are the same damn thing. Bob screwed up with a lot of puckhandling tonight, but the second goal wasn't one of those times.
There are a lot of damned deflections that happen right before the goalie that need to be saved. I'm not buying that excuse for a second. It's of my opinion that if he was in proper position, the bounce wouldn't have been a problem.

It reminds me of long dumps in on goalies from the neutral zone or further. They make sure their whole body is in the way of the path of the puck in case it bounces. They make sure there are no holes for it to seep through. Just my 2 cents.

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02-22-2011, 11:56 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Maybe that's why you aren't in the NHL. NHL goalies face 90+ mph shots multiple times every game, many of which are one timers which they cannot afford to simply "not move at all" and "hope it hits them." A goalie in this league is expected to make that save and it baffles me that you won't admit it.
When NHL goalies face those shots, they usually anticipate them before hand and put themselves in favorable positions (challenging shots, baiting shooters and then taking that part of the net away). A lot of the time the harder shots aren't on net, get blocked, or actually hit the goalies. The overwhelming majority of the time that those shots are on net, and aren't headed for the goalie from the time that they're shot, they're goals.


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02-22-2011, 11:56 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I hope this doesn't come across as bragging, as I'm hoping for a generalization, but goaltenders can sometimes see where a shooter is going with shoulder / wrist / stick angle. It lets you get the trapper or the pad going in the right direction, and after that it's adjustment. Goaltenders rarely make a save coming out of a stopped stance.
I always suspected that a good goalie knows how to read the body language of the shooter. Anticipation has to be the name of the game, because relying solely on your brain's reaction time won't cut it a lot of the time.

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02-22-2011, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I hope this doesn't come across as bragging, as I'm hoping for a generalization, but goaltenders can sometimes see where a shooter is going with shoulder / wrist / stick angle. It lets you get the trapper or the pad going in the right direction, and after that it's adjustment. Goaltenders rarely make a save coming out of a stopped stance.
Definitely agree. That's why I think a shooter with a fast, compact release is more dangerous than one with ridiculous velocity. If you have a good idea of which quarter of the net the puck is going at before it leaves the tape, that's a huge advantage.

Also, for jvr21


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02-23-2011, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Definitely agree. That's why I think a shooter with a fast, compact release is more dangerous than one with ridiculous velocity. If you have a good idea of which quarter of the net the puck is going at before it leaves the tape, that's a huge advantage.

Also, for jvr21

I don't want this to get off topic. A 100 mph slapshot from between the dots is a lot different than a weak wrister with an odd bounce from the top far corner of the circle.

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