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ATD 2011 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
02-25-2011, 05:45 AM
  #126
Dreakmur
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Just looking for some input on my powerplay here.

I've got Andy Bathgate, who was famour for using his wicked shot from the point, but I'm not sure that's the best spot for him on my team.

First, I've got Ray Bourque. He's one of the elite pointmen in the draft, and he's got one of the better point shots around. I don't have the need to use Bathgate back there.

Second, Bathgate is my most skilled forward, so moving him back would leave me thin up front. If Norm Ullman and Alf Smith are good puck-winners and slot presences, but they aren't really the types of guys who can creat offense on their own.

My question....

Do you think a powerplay can be effective based almost entirely on the point men? I haven't looked at all the teams, but I'd be very surprised if a combo of Ray Bourque and Andy Bathgate wasn't the best set of powerplay pointmen. The forwards will be relatively unskilled, but if I run the PP from the blueline, does that matter?

Alf Smith, Norm Ullman, and whoever else will have simple jobs - get the puck, give it to the point, and get to the net. Let Bourque and Bathgate unleash hell and the forwards just create traffic and recover the puck.

What do people think?

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02-25-2011, 05:54 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Do you think a powerplay can be effective based almost entirely on the point men? I haven't looked at all the teams, but I'd be very surprised if a combo of Ray Bourque and Andy Bathgate wasn't the best set of powerplay pointmen. The forwards will be relatively unskilled, but if I run the PP from the blueline, does that matter?

Alf Smith, Norm Ullman, and whoever else will have simple jobs - get the puck, give it to the point, and get to the net. Let Bourque and Bathgate unleash hell and the forwards just create traffic and recover the puck.

What do people think?
It's a sticky problem. Bourque - Bathgate would be easily the best point tandem in the league. I don't have to go to the roster thread and check; it is one of the best point tandems anyone could possibly assemble. It would likely be the best point tandem in a ten team ATD. So you've got that.

But I do think having a puckhandler down low is important. Without one, teams will cheat heavily on your pointmen, which is a big, glowing Do Not Want in your situation.

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02-25-2011, 06:05 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It's a sticky problem. Bourque - Bathgate would be easily the best point tandem in the league. I don't have to go to the roster thread and check; it is one of the best point tandems anyone could possibly assemble. It would likely be the best point tandem in a ten team ATD. So you've got that.

But I do think having a puckhandler down low is important. Without one, teams will cheat heavily on your pointmen, which is a big, glowing Do Not Want in your situation.
Thanks. I'll see what I can do with the next set of picks.

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02-25-2011, 02:44 PM
  #129
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Yes Dreak, post your whole PP units here if you want more advice. Bourque-Bathgate is absolutely lethal, but I agree that you don't want to overload your points so much than the PKers can safely ignore the guys down low.

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02-25-2011, 03:16 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Being big doesn't tell us how he played.

There are lots of big guys who don't play big. There is some evidence that Roberts was tough, but again, that doesn't really tell us that he's good along the boards. I'm not sure I'd buy him as the primary puck-winner and primary physical presence, especially since he's got no help in either area.
His PIM totals say he was no shrinking violet. That said, while I could find plenty of references to the Wanderers playing tough physical hockey, it never mentioned any specific players except for once with Art Ross. I still can check the other teams he played for but not sure when I'll have the time.

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02-25-2011, 03:25 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes Dreak, post your whole PP units here if you want more advice. Bourque-Bathgate is absolutely lethal, but I agree that you don't want to overload your points so much than the PKers can safely ignore the guys down low.
As much as I agree with a lot of your posts, I absolutely have to disagree with this one. Pk'ers may I repeat may cheat a little on the pointman but in no way shape or form can they "safely ignore" ANY ATD player who is playing on the PP.

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02-25-2011, 03:42 PM
  #132
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Unless that player is Wade Belak.

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02-25-2011, 03:43 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
As much as I agree with a lot of your posts, I absolutely have to disagree with this one. Pk'ers may I repeat may cheat a little on the pointman but in no way shape or form can they "safely ignore" ANY ATD player who is playing on the PP.
Well, the forwards can definitely play up higher to put more pressure on the points.
The thing is, I think Ullman can be an adequate puckhandler/playmaker down low and Dunderdale seems pretty well suited to being a slot guy, so Dreak's not in such bad shape with what he has already. He just needs a third PP forward better than Alf Smith.

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02-25-2011, 03:51 PM
  #134
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Unless that player is Wade Belak.
And we can safely ignore him when making our teams. Aki Petteri Berg on the other hand...

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02-25-2011, 03:53 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
His PIM totals say he was no shrinking violet. That said, while I could find plenty of references to the Wanderers playing tough physical hockey, it never mentioned any specific players except for once with Art Ross. I still can check the other teams he played for but not sure when I'll have the time.
Didn't take much time because searching for other teams netted zero results.

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02-25-2011, 05:10 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
As much as I agree with a lot of your posts, I absolutely have to disagree with this one. Pk'ers may I repeat may cheat a little on the pointman but in no way shape or form can they "safely ignore" ANY ATD player who is playing on the PP.
Maybe they can't "ignore them" per se, but a guy like Bathgate playing down low can really stretch the PKers. Ullman down low is pretty damn dangerous though.

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02-25-2011, 06:20 PM
  #137
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How would you guys rank Suter-Lidstrom on the PP point? ( also considering I have Gretzky down low )

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02-25-2011, 06:38 PM
  #138
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That's a very good mix.

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02-25-2011, 07:19 PM
  #139
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A little bit of pimping there , I think my first unit could fight to be the best at even strenght , I don't have the best wingers but they have the luxury of playing with the best playmaker and even strenght producers of all-time , McDonald has all the intangible you could dream and is a good goal scorer that could be great with Gretzky , and Elias who brings good offense and defensive play with decent size , all the while having a top 5 defenseman in Lidstrom and Konstantinov to support him with tremendous physical play and sound defensive play.Finally I have a pretty decent all-around goalie in Alex Connell.


Elias-Gretzky-McDonald
Lidstrom-Konstantinov
Connell

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02-26-2011, 11:50 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
How would you guys rank Suter-Lidstrom on the PP point? ( also considering I have Gretzky down low )
It's quite strong, but the fact that Suter and Lidstrom are both left handed shots will make it easier for the penalty killers to clear the zone.

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02-26-2011, 12:20 PM
  #141
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So what do you guys think of my top-4?

Frank Patrick - Earl Seibert
Lester Patrick - Terry Harper

I've got two great puck movers on my first unit, Lester Patrick is an excellent anchor for my 2nd unit, and both have at least one very strong defensive presence as well. Still working on my PK, but my PP will look something like this:

Lester Patrick - Earl Seibert
Frank Patrick - ?

Do you guys know if any of my forwards played point on the PP? The only one I could possibly think of is Martinec. He probably has the brains and puck handling ability to QB a PP.

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02-26-2011, 12:22 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
A little bit of pimping there , I think my first unit could fight to be the best at even strenght , I don't have the best wingers but they have the luxury of playing with the best playmaker and even strenght producers of all-time , McDonald has all the intangible you could dream and is a good goal scorer that could be great with Gretzky , and Elias who brings good offense and defensive play with decent size , all the while having a top 5 defenseman in Lidstrom and Konstantinov to support him with tremendous physical play and sound defensive play.Finally I have a pretty decent all-around goalie in Alex Connell.


Elias-Gretzky-McDonald
Lidstrom-Konstantinov
Connell
Does 2 franchise players make a "best" first unit? If anyone does, I guess Gretzky and Lidstrom are great choices. Anyway, since I'm itching for an

Any line with Gretzky on it will be one of the better lines in the draft, especially when his wingers have complementing skillsets. His linemates give him great chemistry, but are definitely below average as first line wingers. I love Patrik Elias (he was my first choice for a 2nd line LW in the 300s, I hate you for stealing him, though Lewis is a good replacement), but he's a very streaky player offensively. And McDonald's toughness is great, but he's probably a bit worse than Elias offensively.

Gretzky can definitely elevate the offense of his linemates to quite a large degree. But in the playoffs, teams with good shut down units know they can really hone in on Gretzky, which might hurt you. Then again, in a 40 team draft, checking units will be spread thinner, as well.

Lidstrom is a great anchor on defense. The question is - how do you play on using him? You probably want him to go against your opponents top lines, but that limits the ice time he can play with Gretzky. Unless you want to go strength on strength. Definitely something to think about.

Konstantinov is a passable #3 defenseman in a 40 team draft, but he's definitely out of his element as a #2. Not sure how a guy with only 2 elite seasons will handle top pairing ice time.

Connell is a below average regular season starter who raises his game a bit in the playoffs.

Definitely a strong first unit. And I think you did a great job putting together players who should have good chemistry. But after your two franchise players, the talent is a bit thin - which is to be expected, given the assets you gave away to trade up in order to have two franchise players.

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02-26-2011, 12:42 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does 2 franchise players make a "best" first unit? If anyone does, I guess Gretzky and Lidstrom are great choices. Anyway, since I'm itching for an

Any line with Gretzky on it will be one of the better lines in the draft, especially when his wingers have complementing skillsets. His linemates give him great chemistry, but are definitely below average as first line wingers. I love Patrik Elias (he was my first choice for a 2nd line LW in the 300s, I hate you for stealing him, though Lewis is a good replacement), but he's a very streaky player offensively. And McDonald's toughness is great, but he's probably a bit worse than Elias offensively.

Gretzky can definitely elevate the offense of his linemates to quite a large degree. But in the playoffs, teams with good shut down units know they can really hone in on Gretzky, which might hurt you. Then again, in a 40 team draft, checking units will be spread thinner, as well.

Lidstrom is a great anchor on defense. The question is - how do you play on using him? You probably want him to go against your opponents top lines, but that limits the ice time he can play with Gretzky. Unless you want to go strength on strength. Definitely something to think about.

Konstantinov is a passable #3 defenseman in a 40 team draft, but he's definitely out of his element as a #2. Not sure how a guy with only 2 elite seasons will handle top pairing ice time.

Connell is a below average regular season starter who raises his game a bit in the playoffs.

Definitely a strong first unit. And I think you did a great job putting together players who should have good chemistry. But after your two franchise players, the talent is a bit thin - which is to be expected, given the assets you gave away to trade up in order to have two franchise players.
I don't think checking unit concentring on Gretzky will do much damage , he was the best even-strenght player of all-time and rarely got stopped if ever , and I do plan on using him strenght vs strenght anyway as Gretzky is notorious for getting the best of those situation , I can name his games vs Lemieux as an example.I'm not sure Elias is better than McDonald on offense in this particular line , Elias can do a little bit of everything , but the Gretzky factor will elevate McDonald's goal scoring ability , not to mention he was one hell of a clutch player in big moment , and so is Gretzky.Konstantinov might have only 2 elite seasons , but it's debatable how good he was before , and playing with Lidstrom so he could really concentrate on his little bodychecking defensive game will certainly help him a lot.As for Connell , being below average is just using the 40 goalies system and rate them , which is not necessarily an indicative of the differance they ( him vs opponant ) will make in an actual game with both extremely strong line-up.

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02-26-2011, 12:52 PM
  #144
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So what do you guys think of my top-4?

Frank Patrick - Earl Seibert
Lester Patrick - Terry Harper

I've got two great puck movers on my first unit, Lester Patrick is an excellent anchor for my 2nd unit, and both have at least one very strong defensive presence as well. Still working on my PK, but my PP will look something like this:

Lester Patrick - Earl Seibert
Frank Patrick - ?

Do you guys know if any of my forwards played point on the PP? The only one I could possibly think of is Martinec. He probably has the brains and puck handling ability to QB a PP.
Earl Seibert is a rock solid #1. He's not elite, but he's a physical beast with no real weaknesses. Frank Patrick is a passable #3 who might run into occasional trouble on the first pair. Did you do a bio of him? He's the Patrick I know the least about. I definitely see him in the #3 range but I'm not entirely sure yet how good a #3 he would be.

Lester Patrick is a very good 2nd unit anchor - very good puckmover who can take care of his own zone. In a 30 team draft, I saw Harper as a guy best used as an elite #5 and PK specialist. I suppose he can handle #4 duties in a 40 team draft. At least he has Patrick to handle the puck for him.

If you want me to comment on your forwards, list them here.

Edit: I see you did a Frank Patrick bio. The (lack of) formatting hurts my eyes. I'll read it when that's fixed.

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02-26-2011, 01:42 PM
  #145
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The Frank Patrick bio is nowhere near complete, it's just a copy and paste of what seventies and I did 2 ATDs ago. I'm going to scour google news and post everything I find, there's some really, really good stuff about him on google news.

As far as Terry Harper, I don't see any reason why he can't be an excellent #4 here. I mean, his partner is going to be a top-5 puck mover on the 2nd pair, so there's no problem there, and he was what, the 120th or so defenseman taken? If we are to believe that he was the BDA when taken, then in a 40 team draft, he would be around the worst #3 in a draft.. or among the best #4s, just based on where he "should" be taken in an all time list. With the proper partner (and I think I have the proper partner for him), I think he can be an extremely effective #4.

Anyway, Frank and Lester play a similar game, just that Frank was much tougher, so I might switch Lester and Frank to balance things out a bit more, although I like things the way they are. I absolutely believe that Frank was every bit as good offensively as Lester. Frank didn't play as long, but he had a better peak.


Last edited by jarek: 02-26-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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02-26-2011, 01:54 PM
  #146
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If we are to believe that he was the BDA when taken, then in a 40 team draft....
Sure, if we are to believe that. I don't.

Harper may have been the best penalty killing defenseman available, but there are guys left I'd rather have at even strength.

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02-26-2011, 02:09 PM
  #147
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Any thoughts on the type of dman I should pair with Davydov for my 2nd pairing?

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02-26-2011, 02:15 PM
  #148
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Any thoughts on the type of dman I should pair with Davydov for my 2nd pairing?
PM sent.

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02-26-2011, 02:32 PM
  #149
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Any thoughts on the type of dman I should pair with Davydov for my 2nd pairing?
Davydov seems well rounded, but leaning towards defense. So I would pick a guy who is well rounded, but leaning towards offense.

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02-26-2011, 03:20 PM
  #150
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Sure, if we are to believe that. I don't.

Harper may have been the best penalty killing defenseman available, but there are guys left I'd rather have at even strength.
Why? In terms of accomplishments and all around game, I'm not sure if there was a better guy. Believe me, I looked. I don't think there's a guy who brings a ton of offense left that also brings good defense and/or physicality. I mean, realistically, a 2nd pairing, which Harper is playing on, will inevitably play against some of the better players on the other team (mostly 2nd line I'm thinking). Do you think that Harper's defensive game at even strength won't be useful in fending off the attacks of these lines? Moreover, given that I have Lester Patrick with him to move the puck, I just don't see why his lack of offense really even matters all that much. In terms of overall value and overall impact, do you really think there's another defenseman who will provide the same overall benefit as Harper? I'm not sure there is. Just because there are guys you'd RATHER have on the 2nd pair, doesn't mean that they're better. And ultimately, to believe that both guys on everyone's top-4 have to add some measure of offense is not only downright irresponsible, but also completely wrong. I take it that you also feel that Langway should be a 5th D PK specialist too?

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