HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

2 Firsts for Weiss.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-22-2011, 12:31 PM
  #76
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
If Weiss has a NMC with Florida then I assume that he is happy being there and Burke has no reason to try to drag him away.

mooseOAK* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:34 PM
  #77
JB Maple Leafs
Registered User
 
JB Maple Leafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Barrie
Country: Canada
Posts: 723
vCash: 500
Weiss is just another Matt Stajan and I sure as heck wouldn't trade 2 firsts for him.
He'll be 28 this year and never been more than a 60 pt guy.
Keep developing Kadri and Colborne and keep the Cap Space for something legitimate.
Bozak could even be Stephen Weiss calibre in a couple years as well.

JB Maple Leafs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:34 PM
  #78
EazyB97
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 27,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Maple Leafs View Post
Weiss is just another Matt Stajan and I sure as heck wouldn't trade 2 firsts for him.
He'll be 28 this year and never been more than a 60 pt guy.
Keep developing Kadri and Colborne and keep the Cap Space for something legitimate.
Bozak could even be Stephen Weiss calibre in a couple years as well.
There's a good chance those firsts never come close to 60 points combined.

EazyB97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:36 PM
  #79
ponder
Registered User
 
ponder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,516
vCash: 500
Hell no, he just fills the Grabovski role, we still wouldn't have a true #1 C. If we're gonna give up major assets, it has to be for a piece that fits long term, not a bandaid solution like Weiss.

ponder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:37 PM
  #80
smitty10
Registered User
 
smitty10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,081
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
There's a good chance those firsts never come close to 60 points combined.
Considering the weak draft that 2011 projects to be, there is a VERY high chance that neither player picked even ends up as a full time NHLer.

smitty10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:39 PM
  #81
Ricky Bobby
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,427
vCash: 500
If it only took the 2 1sts in a weak draft to acquire Weiss Burke should be all over it.

Weiss might not be the Star 1st line center we all dream about but his cap hit reflects that. Having Grabo and Weiss center on are two top lines over the next two years would give us two lines that are a threat to score. This would also buy Burke time to develop Kadri and Colborne on the wings next season or give them spot duty at center when someone gets hurt.

Grabo is a UFA after next season. If he wants to be overpaid on the open market then we still have Weiss and by that point one of Kadri or Colborne could be ready to take Grabos spot.

The season after that Weiss is a UFA and if he wants to be overpaid through free agency repeat the same exercise as the above paragraph.

But the best part about acquiring a player like Weiss is that it leaves lots of room for Burke to address other team needs like a top 4 dman like Ehrhoff or net presence LW like Laich well taking advantage of Kadri, Colborne, Gardiner and Blacker all being on their ELC over the next two years.

If we do acquire Weiss, I think C-Mac could be out of the picture if he wants to be paid anything north of 2.5 million a year. He is behind Kessel and Kuli as our top wingers. Lupul isn't going anywhere because of his contract, has higher upside and has to be on a scoring line. We have a need for a player that is a big net presence which C-Mac as good of a fit he has been this year is not that player. If he gets bumped to the third line because a better fit like Laich is brought in then he is overpaid at anything north of 2.5. Plus Kadri and Colborne are going to be on the team next year at some point and they could take his spot at far less of a cost.

Ricky Bobby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:40 PM
  #82
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,399
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
If Weiss has a NMC with Florida then I assume that he is happy being there and Burke has no reason to try to drag him away.
Stephen Weiss was born in Toronto, Ontario perhaps that is a reason he would consider waiving his no trade to play for the Leafs.

__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:48 PM
  #83
Smif
Registered User
 
Smif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,671
vCash: 500
I think we can do better. I don't want to settle for second rate anymore.

Smif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:48 PM
  #84
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31,175
vCash: 500
What is with this weak draft argument? Even in the worst drafts in the past 30 years, in 1996 and 1999, someone walked away with some serious talent. If the scouting staff is there and you trust the work they did with the McKegg type picks, we should be letting them do their work instead of adding another piece that is no better in quality than what we already have.

Let me put it this way:

Kris Versteeg got us a 1st and a 3rd. He is 24, got 37 points in 57 games this season with 15 goals.

Stephen Weiss is suddenly worth twice as much as Versteeg? The guy is 27, has 16 goals and a whopping 3 more points in 58 games.


Further add to the fact that Stephen Weiss wouldn't know how to win a meaningful hockey game to save his life, I'm not sure why we want him.

Stephen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 12:56 PM
  #85
stides*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Parkdale
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What is with this weak draft argument? Even in the worst drafts in the past 30 years, in 1996 and 1999, someone walked away with some serious talent. If the scouting staff is there and you trust the work they did with the McKegg type picks, we should be letting them do their work instead of adding another piece that is no better in quality than what we already have.

Let me put it this way:

Kris Versteeg got us a 1st and a 3rd. He is 24, got 37 points in 57 games this season with 15 goals.

Stephen Weiss is suddenly worth twice as much as Versteeg? The guy is 27, has 16 goals and a whopping 3 more points in 58 games.


Further add to the fact that Stephen Weiss wouldn't know how to win a meaningful hockey game to save his life, I'm not sure why we want him.


It's funny how weak the draft got as soon as the Leafs got a first rounder

stides* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:03 PM
  #86
Dayjobdave
Registered User
 
Dayjobdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,789
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stides View Post
It's funny how weak the draft got as soon as the Leafs got a first rounder
^^This.

And how strong it will be if Burke moves the picks.

Dayjobdave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:03 PM
  #87
EazyB97
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 27,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by stides View Post
It's funny how weak the draft got as soon as the Leafs got a first rounder
It's always been weak, this discussion has been going on for the past 2 years. It didn't "just happen" if anything it suddenly got "deeper".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What is with this weak draft argument? Even in the worst drafts in the past 30 years, in 1996 and 1999, someone walked away with some serious talent. If the scouting staff is there and you trust the work they did with the McKegg type picks, we should be letting them do their work instead of adding another piece that is no better in quality than what we already have.

Let me put it this way:

Kris Versteeg got us a 1st and a 3rd. He is 24, got 37 points in 57 games this season with 15 goals.

Stephen Weiss is suddenly worth twice as much as Versteeg? The guy is 27, has 16 goals and a whopping 3 more points in 58 games.


Further add to the fact that Stephen Weiss wouldn't know how to win a meaningful hockey game to save his life, I'm not sure why we want him.
There will be good talent available, but it's an odds game. If there's 3 good NHLers picked between the 15th and 60th pick (very likely in this draft) then I wouldn't have faith in ANY scouting staff to grab the guys. Too much chance someone else takes them or they were just overlooked.

He's been a better producer than Versteeg the past 3 years, which is why he'd command more. Two firsts is a high price for a player like him, but it's a deal that could work out in the Leafs favour. I'd prefer to give-up the 1 first and think that's a more realistic trade.

EazyB97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:09 PM
  #88
GE0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,211
vCash: 500
I don't buy this either. Not at all.

If anything, why would Burke trade assets for a center now before seeing if he can sign Richards in free agency? They will explore that first and if it doesn't work out, then he'll explore trading a combination of assets for a #1 center.

Which Weiss isn't anyways, at least not to the degree for the Leafs to trade assets to acquire him.

Like I said, I don't buy this at all. Huge shock I know, ******** from the Toronto media. First time for everything, right? LOL

GE0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:11 PM
  #89
stides*
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Parkdale
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayjobdave View Post
^^This.

And how strong it will be if Burke moves the picks.
lol yea if burke moves those picks, it will be the strongest draft ever according to hfboards.

stides* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:11 PM
  #90
Ricky Bobby
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,427
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
What is with this weak draft argument? Even in the worst drafts in the past 30 years, in 1996 and 1999, someone walked away with some serious talent. If the scouting staff is there and you trust the work they did with the McKegg type picks, we should be letting them do their work instead of adding another piece that is no better in quality than what we already have.

Let me put it this way:

Kris Versteeg got us a 1st and a 3rd. He is 24, got 37 points in 57 games this season with 15 goals.

Stephen Weiss is suddenly worth twice as much as Versteeg? The guy is 27, has 16 goals and a whopping 3 more points in 58 games.


Further add to the fact that Stephen Weiss wouldn't know how to win a meaningful hockey game to save his life, I'm not sure why we want him.
Go back and check those 1996 and 1999 draft picks between the 20th and 40 spots. There was only 1 impact player in Briere that came out of those spots.

Finding good centers is a lot harder to acquire than decent wingers. Which is why the Leafs would have to pay a premium.

Just because he doesn't play for winning a team doesn't mean him as an individual can't win on a better team. Players on certain teams get to much credit for being winners. Sure someone like Toews is a winner but what if he was a on garbage team like the Islanders playing at the same level but not getting into the playoffs. Would that mean Toews as an individual is a loser then?

Ricky Bobby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:12 PM
  #91
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 55,491
vCash: 500
So would Weiss be the player to take the Leafs to the Cup as a 1st. line center?

Sure the picks are gambles and Weiss is not, but I don't see him elevating his game to top notch 1st. liner whereas the picks might.

Some people look to be in a hurray to get back to being mediocre.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
ULF_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:13 PM
  #92
MoreMogilny
Cap'n
 
MoreMogilny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oshawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,753
vCash: 500
I listened to the Fan 590 as well today, and i must say that Greg Brady was annoyingly insistent on this. He seems convinced that Weiss is a bonafide top line center, and that is something i disagree with.

Weiss is a good player, no doubt, but is really the solution here? He has a great cap hit and could probably hit 65+ points with Kessel, but i can't help but feel he would just be a stop gap. I don't think Weiss is the answer, even if he can provide some immediate help, I don't see him as a guy that will help the Leafs compete with the better teams in the conference.

Lupul - Weiss - Kessel
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur

Does that top 6 really look good enough to go up against teams like Boston, Philly, or Pittsburgh? I sure don't think so.

Acquiring Weiss may help this team in the short run, and would probably help vault the Leafs to a playoff position next year, but should that really be the objective? Do we not want to see the Leafs build up an even more solid group of prospects? As it stands, they have 3 picks in the 25-35 range, which seems like a very good opportunity to bring in some good prospects for the future.

If the Leafs are going to be moving out a couple of firsts+ then i would want them to go big or go home. Again, Weiss is a good player, but is he ever going to be a top line guy on a real contending team? I would bet good money that he won't be, simply because he isn't good enough.

Maybe it's just me, but i would much rather keep the picks, select a couple of good players in the draft, or trade them in addition to some more valuable assets in order to acquire a legitimate first line center. I would rather give up more, in order to get more, than mess around acquiring a guy like Weiss who certainly isn't going to help make the Leafs stand up as one of the better teams in the conference.

MoreMogilny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:15 PM
  #93
GE0
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,211
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreMogilny View Post
I listened to the Fan 590 as well today, and i must say that Greg Brady was annoyingly insistent on this. He seems convinced that Weiss is a bonafide top line center, and that is something i disagree with.
Consider the source and move on.

GE0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:17 PM
  #94
BudMaster17
Gap Inspector
 
BudMaster17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Greece
Posts: 1,017
vCash: 500
Much rather use any assets towards a 1st line center as opposed to a 2nd line center like Weiss. Burke knows that Weiss is not the #1 center he needs.

BudMaster17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:17 PM
  #95
EazyB97
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 27,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
So would Weiss be the player to take the Leafs to the Cup as a 1st. line center?

Sure the picks are gambles and Weiss is not, but I don't see him elevating his game to top notch 1st. liner whereas the picks might.

Some people look to be in a hurray to get back to being mediocre.
He's a good piece moving forward, he doesn't have to be the focal point for a cup winner, he could easily be a 2nd line center or used as trade bait to fill a hole when the team looks like a contender. We have some hope down the middle with Kadri and Colborne as well.

EazyB97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:18 PM
  #96
Smif
Registered User
 
Smif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Go back and check those 1996 and 1999 draft picks between the 20th and 40 spots. There was only 1 impact player in Briere that came out of those spots.

Finding good centers is a lot harder to acquire than decent wingers. Which is why the Leafs would have to pay a premium.

Just because he doesn't play for winning a team doesn't mean him as an individual can't win on a better team. Players on certain teams get to much credit for being winners. Sure someone like Toews is a winner but what if he was a on garbage team like the Islanders playing at the same level but not getting into the playoffs. Would that mean Toews as an individual is a loser then?
This draft isn't as bad as the '99 draft. There's definitely more than one impact player that will be drafted between 20-40. Prolly 5 or 6.

Smif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:23 PM
  #97
EazyB97
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 27,847
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smif View Post
This draft isn't as bad as the '99 draft. There's definitely more than one impact player that will be drafted between 20-40. Prolly 5 or 6.
Not likely, it's better than 1999, but not by much. I'd slide it inbetween 2007 and 1999 and 5-6 "impact players" in the 20-40 range is alot. 2003, likely the best draft ever, had Burns, Richards, Kesler, Eriksson and Perry taken in the 20-40 range so I doubt this draft replicates those numbers. I'd expect 2-3 "impact" players taken in the 15-50 range of this draft.

EazyB97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:24 PM
  #98
MoreMogilny
Cap'n
 
MoreMogilny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oshawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
He's a good piece moving forward, he doesn't have to be the focal point for a cup winner, he could easily be a 2nd line center or used as trade bait to fill a hole when the team looks like a contender. We have some hope down the middle with Kadri and Colborne as well.
We have Grabovski. He is a very good piece to have as a second line center. Why spend the kind of necessary assets on Weiss if he is only coming in to be a slight upgrade to Grabo? The Leafs should not be looking at acquiring guys like Weiss who aren't capable of anchoring the top line of a contending team.

MoreMogilny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:24 PM
  #99
Confucius
Registered User
 
Confucius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,460
vCash: 500
I wouldn't trade away picks, sure they may not make it to the NHL but in the long run your 1st round pick is where you'll get your star. Sort of like fishing eventually you'll catch one.

Not all surfire draftees pan out and sometimes there are surprises. You never know so you have to pick.

Confucius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-22-2011, 01:26 PM
  #100
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 31,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Go back and check those 1996 and 1999 draft picks between the 20th and 40 spots. There was only 1 impact player in Briere that came out of those spots.
Why am I looking specifically between 20 and 40th? If we just go by 25th and lower, the 1996 draft yielded Briere, Kaberle, Chara, Parrish, Kubina, Rozsival, Bulis, Dackell, Lydman, Colin White, etc. A lot of these names are no better than Stephen Weiss, but the more picks you have, the better the chance you find a player that can be useful to you. It just depends on the work your scouts do, and the development work your organization puts into these kids. It's not all blind luck.

And even IF they're not players in the long run, they still hold value as prospects for a few years, so they can be moved, like we saw Joe Colborne traded 3 years after being drafted for an all-star defenseman.

To me, stockpiling for a potentially winning team a few years down the line is probably more important than adding another mediocre piece like Weiss. We got Clarke MacArthur for free, no need to pay a premium for a guy who isn't even better than that and is older and way more expensive.

Stephen is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.