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Phoenix XXII: It's Now or Never

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:40 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by wlecoyote View Post
And they win their 8th straight. It is starting to remind me of the CFL in the 80's and 90's where every year the team facing bankruptcy miracolously made it to the Grey Cup
Actually, when the Yotes do well the news on the ownership sale is good, when they tank , the news tends to be bad. So if you are a yotes fan you have additional incentive for the Yotes to keep winning.

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02-23-2011, 09:44 AM
  #77
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Atlanta's clearly a dud, but they're a poor draw everywhere.
ESPN says they average 16,293 on the road. Not defending Atlanta's poor attendance here, just stating that 10,576 is not reflective of their draw everywhere.

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02-23-2011, 09:45 AM
  #78
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Here's what I find most interesting about the parking issue. In a lease, typically, the parking could be part of the lease deal but that is most likely part of the price that a team owner must pay. You want to use the arena and parking lot, here's the fee.

Essentially what I feel the COG is doing is not charging MH for a lease at all, including the parking lot at no charge, then of course as we all know, buying the rights to it. It's underhanded but it's a scheme that appears to be working at the moment.

As for attendance, those aren't bad numbers. Now are those real numbers. Any pictures taken at the game? I want to see what 17000-19000 looks like at a Coyotes game.

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:46 AM
  #79
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Woah, there were some incredibly accurate predictions made back then in 2008:

Tinalera: "With all the numbers going around, I don't know what to believe anymore. I'm starting to get to the idea that, while there are strong opinions on whether the franchise is working, IMO it won't contract or move, regardless. The worst thing that happens to Phoenix, or any other "struggling" teams, will be that the NHL will take control of the franchise and find an owner who wants to keep it in that city"

That proved to be 100% accurate!


But there were also incredibly inaccurate ones:

Haaque Konasewer: "Its amazing how people in Winnipeg keep crying about the Jets. Lets review the reasons why you are never likely to get an NHL franchise.

1) You're too small. 600,000. Enough said.
2) Your city has no corporation base and Winnipeg is not known for its wealth.
3) You can barely get 25,000 to watch your only pro team.
4) MTS Centre is not a legitimate NHL rink.

Reason one supercedes all other reasons. Even if you met the other 3 conditions, you're nothing but a small prairie city in the middle of nowhere. It's the brutal truth. That doesn't mean you can't have the world jrs., the world championship or some other hockey event. Just not the NHL."


And there were also hilariously ironic posts:

ej_pens: "The funny part is that this would be a perfect opportunity for Balsillie to prove to the NHL that he is willing to play by their rules. Let's say he provides a much needed infusion of capital into the Coyotes for preferred treatment by the NHL should a franchise become available for relocation (or expansion)."

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

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02-23-2011, 09:57 AM
  #80
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Oh joy - more to add to the list for posterity.

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Old
02-23-2011, 09:59 AM
  #81
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Keep your chin up KDB... We are on the home-stretch.

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02-23-2011, 10:07 AM
  #82
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This is from one of the old threads with regards to parking:

Quote:
The 30-year lease that accompanied significant municipal support in the building of Jobing.com Arena (the municipality put up $180 million of the $220 million price tag) has a number of problem areas as it relates to the franchise's ability to generate revenues.

Take parking. The Coyotes, unlike most teams in the NHL, receive nothing from parking fees at the arena. Instead, they actually pay a surcharge of $2.70 per vehicle. That means instead of generating upwards of $10 million in revenue, they pay more than $2 million.

In short, said one source, they are paying people to park at their building.

Changing that part of the lease is one of the areas the NHL is trying to help renegotiate with the city. Ultimately, the league is hopeful it can help create strategies through which both the municipality and the team can gain, as opposed to simply asking the municipality for concessions.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3790207

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Old
02-23-2011, 10:09 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
The reality, though, is that the team must be there in order for the parking rights to continue to apply to the arena manager (in addition to the arena itself needing to be there).
So in a nutshell, and in a roundabout way, the Parking Rights will return to Ellman should a deal not close & the team be relo'd upon expiration of the interim lease. Thanks for the clarification. If hypothetically that were to happen and we apply logic and an ArenaMgmnt firms' hired by the COG, they in turn would again be able to offer parking revenues either directly by including the Right to Charge or indirectly through another, albeit much lower volume of bond offerings. By rote, if said ArenaMgmnt firm secure an AHL or Arena Football League Team, whatever that could be considered an anchor tenant, similar arrangements made in any number of ways as per business as usual. Crystal...

Now. The Arena Management Agreement. Ya'll had a look at that Doozy of late?....

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Old
02-23-2011, 10:16 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by AtlantaWhaler View Post
ESPN says they average 16,293 on the road. Not defending Atlanta's poor attendance here, just stating that 10,576 is not reflective of their draw everywhere.
I didn't mean to imply that they draw Phoenix-type numbers everywhere, just that they're a poor draw (but not as bad as Nashville, which somehow has a ranking of 31st in road attendance! )

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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
That is just wrong when you get 13k to watch one of the elite teams and one of the elite players in the league. Atlanta I understand.......
Don't wanna be the Phoenix apologist here, but to be fair, it was a Monday and it was Valentine's Day. I'd hope the prospect of getting a little action was what kept people away ... Colorado only drew 14,035 for the Flames that night (though St, Louis sold out their game vs. Vancouver).

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Old
02-23-2011, 10:39 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey93 View Post
Who owns the freaking parking lots??? Does the parking lot owner not, by default, also own the rights to charge for parking in that lot?
I would not want to be in the room when someone tried to explain to you how Michael Jackson got paid any time a Beatles song was played.

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02-23-2011, 10:54 AM
  #86
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I would not want to be in the room when someone tried to explain to you how Michael Jackson got paid any time a Beatles song was played.
Publishing rights are my favorite!

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02-23-2011, 10:57 AM
  #87
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I would not want to be in the room when someone tried to explain to you how Michael Jackson got paid any time a Beatles song was played.
"Wha-wha-what??? That's an outrage! A travesty! Next thing you know, dogs will be living with cats and women will be allowed to join the Friar's Club!!! What a debacle, what is this 1987 or 2011??? The gall, the audacity.... I'm... I'm speechless! Hopefully the Goldwater Institute will stop Glendale from buying the rights to Beatles songs from Michael Jackson's estate... cuz if they don't, my high opinion of them will have to seriously be reexamined with the likely prospect of it being reduced from 'Highly favorable' to 'PR hack firm'."

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02-23-2011, 11:04 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
If the parking rights were conveyed to Ellman and subsequently to Moyes, then why is this language in the agreements:

7.7 City Parking Fee Account. The Arena Manager shall, prior to the Operations Start Date, establish and maintain (for the benefit of the City) one or more trust accounts (requiring the signature of only the City for withdrawals) at a federally-insured institution(s) having offices in the State of Arizona for the deposit and disbursement of City Parking Fees (the "City Parking Fee Account"), and shall make deposits into the City Parking Fee Account as required by Section 8.1. Interest earned on amounts held in the City Parking Fee Account shall not be Operating Revenues and shall be the property of the City. The City may make withdrawals from the City Parking Fee Account at any time and from time to time in the City's sole discretion.

That sure sounds like the city was receiving money for the parking. So how can the city be buying something they are already receiving?
The same language is in both AMULAs because The City Parking Fee Account (now referred to as City Surcharge Account) along with the Arena Recovery Fee were surcharges applied to tickets to assist the city in repayment of the construction debt. The fees have literally nothing to do with the rights to the physical parking structures around the arena. They are ticket surcharges. One could even suggest that the city built the surcharge for "parking" into the ticket because they were aware they had no rights to revenue from physical parking.

There is no smoking gun. The language exists in both past and current AMULA.

From the Hulsizer AMULA:
Quote:
7.4.1 City Surcharge Account. Subject to Sections 14.3.3 and 14.3.7, the Arena Manager shall, prior to the Agreement Effective Date, establish and maintain (for the benefit of the City) one or more trust accounts (requiring the signature of only the City for withdrawals) at a federally-insured institution(s) having offices in the State of Arizona for the deposit and disbursement of City Surcharges (the “City Surcharge Account”), and shall make deposits into the City Surcharge Account as required by Section 8.1.3. Subject to Section 14.3.3, interest and other income earned on amounts held in the City Surcharge Account shall not be Operating Revenues and shall be the property of the City. The City shall make withdrawals from the City Surcharge Account at any time and from time to time in the City’s sole discretion.
Here are the details of the surcharge:

Hulsizer AMULA:
Quote:
(e) Amount of the City Surcharge. The City Surcharge shall be in the amount of Two Dollars and Eighty Cents ($2.80) per Qualified Ticket with respect to each Fee Activity (for which the City has not waived the City Surcharge) that occurs during the Fiscal Year in which the Agreement Effective Date occurs or the first full Fiscal Year thereafter, and shall be increased by not more than Five Cents ($0.05) for each and every Fiscal Year thereafter, beginning with the first full Fiscal Year after the full Fiscal Year following the Agreement Effective Date (i.e., the City Surcharge shall be $2.80 during the Fiscal Year during which the Agreement Effective Date occurs and during the first full Fiscal Year thereafter, up to $2.85 during the second full Fiscal Year after the Fiscal Year in which the Agreement Effective Date occurs, up to $2.90 during the third full Fiscal Year after the Fiscal Year in which the Agreement Effective Date occurs, and so forth). The City Surcharge shall not, however, apply to or be due and payable with respect to any Ticket other than a Qualified Ticket.
Moyes AMULA:
Quote:
(e) Each License for a Fee Activity that is not an Event shall require that the retail price of each Ticket for such Fee Activity be stated on the face of such Ticket. The City Parking Fee shall be in the amount of Two Dollars and Forty-Five Cents ($2.45) per Qualified Ticket with respect to each Fee Activity (for which the City has not waived the City Parking Fee) that occurs during the Fiscal Year in which the Operations Start Date occurs or the first full Fiscal Year thereafter, and shall be increased by Five Cents ($0.05) for each and every Fiscal Year thereafter, beginning with the second full Fiscal Year after the Fiscal Year in which the Operations Start Date occurs (i.e., the City Parking Fee shall be $2.45 during the Fiscal Year during which the Operations Start Date occurs and during the first full Fiscal Year thereafter, $2.50 during the second full Fiscal Year after the Fiscal Year in which the Operations Start Date occurs, $2.55 during the third full Fiscal Year after the Fiscal Year in which the Operations Start Date occurs, and so forth). The City Parking Fee shall not, however, apply to or he due and payable with respect to any Ticket other than a Qualified Ticket.

You could battle on because they changed the terminology from "City Parking Fee" to "City Surcharge". However, in truth, it was always a surcharge that had nothing to do with the right to charge for actual vehicles being parked on actual parking lots.

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Old
02-23-2011, 11:13 AM
  #89
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The controlling of the right to charge for parking is different than keeping the proceeds from that right. This appears that even though E/M had the right to charge or not charge for parking, the proceeds of those charges went to the CoG which means they owned the rights to the revenue from the parking which is what they say they are now trying to purchase.
The proceeds of parking charges wouldn't go to the CoG.

The Arena Manager is obligated to pay the CoG a fixed parking fee per ticket regardless of whether the Arena Manager charges for parking or not. There's no linkage between the two.

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02-23-2011, 11:19 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
I would not want to be in the room when someone tried to explain to you how Michael Jackson got paid any time a Beatles song was played.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
Publishing rights are my favorite!
Damn Lawyers & Buyouts, why I oughtta....

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02-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #91
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they changed the terminology from "City Parking Fee" to "City Surcharge"
Commies.

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02-23-2011, 11:34 AM
  #92
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Still no bonds?

I've lost track of this thread, but the outcome will be easy to understand: Hulsizer gets a cheque sometime soon, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, the first we'll likely know about it is after the league has already pulled the plug.

If Goldwater intends to litigate, it will have to file documents very soon. I think the time-line for Goldwater bringing legal action is at least as tight as it is for Glendale in issuing the bonds.

If everything comes together, the first we might know about that could also be after the cheque has been safely delivered. I doubt that Glendale, Hulsizer and the NHL will want to notify Goldwater that everything is completed until after the Brinks truck has been unloaded and the money put in the vault. That would be like calling the police while you're still in the middle of a bank robbery.

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02-23-2011, 11:34 AM
  #93
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Commies.
They did, however, reduce the number of words in the agreement by a total of one. That's gotta be some value added.

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02-23-2011, 11:42 AM
  #94
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Oh joy - more to add to the list for posterity.
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Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
Keep your chin up KDB... We are on the home-stretch.
I don't know about that - "prequel" got me thinking:

Episode I: The Fandom Menace - the pre-bankruptcy turmoil in the old Republic

Episode II: Attack of the Clowns (Moyes, JB, Rodier) - the BK saga

Episode III: Revenge of the ??? (hey, some posters consider GB a lightSabre short of being a Sith Lord) - the post-BK soap opera

Episode IV: A New Hope - the Matthew Hulsizer segment of tonight's entertainment

Episode V: The ??? Strikes Back (GWI, the economy, continued bad attendance, parking attendant strike) - the deal falls through or MH cannot make a successful run of it.

Episode VI: The Return of the Jets, Eh? - 'nuff said

So it looks like we may be looking at 60+ more threads.

"I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed
But remember, if you kill him, then you'll be unemployed"
Oh, my Yoda
Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda

Well, I heard my friends really got in a mess
So I'm gonna have to leave Yoda I guess
But I know that I'll be coming back some day
I'll be playing this part 'till I'm old and gray

The long-term contract I had to sign
Says I'll be making these movies till the end of time
Oh with my Yoda
Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda


Last edited by kdb209: 02-23-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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Old
02-23-2011, 11:45 AM
  #95
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If everything comes together, the first we might know about that could also be after the cheque has been safely delivered. I doubt that Glendale, Hulsizer and the NHL will want to notify Goldwater that everything is completed until after the Brinks truck has been unloaded and the money put in the vault. That would be like calling the police while you're still in the middle of a bank robbery.
Totally objective post, equating this deal to a bank robbery. Just love it.

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02-23-2011, 11:52 AM
  #96
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This is from one of the old threads with regards to parking:

Quote:
The 30-year lease that accompanied significant municipal support in the building of Jobing.com Arena (the municipality put up $180 million of the $220 million price tag) has a number of problem areas as it relates to the franchise's ability to generate revenues.

Take parking. The Coyotes, unlike most teams in the NHL, receive nothing from parking fees at the arena. Instead, they actually pay a surcharge of $2.70 per vehicle. That means instead of generating upwards of $10 million in revenue, they pay more than $2 million.

In short, said one source, they are paying people to park at their building.

Changing that part of the lease is one of the areas the NHL is trying to help renegotiate with the city. Ultimately, the league is hopeful it can help create strategies through which both the municipality and the team can gain, as opposed to simply asking the municipality for concessions.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3790207

Thank you for digging that up! I made reference to it yesterday, not recalling if the surcharge was on tickets or parking, but I thought the latter.

So not only was Moyes negligent in actually charging $10-20 per car for parking, it was doubly worse since he had to pay money to Glendale each time someone parked. Furthermore, to change that part of the lease required Glendale's approval, yet now they are willing to PAY the Arena Manager up front for those rights and collect this money directly

Quote:
Changing that part of the lease is one of the areas the NHL is trying to help renegotiate with the city. Ultimately, the league is hopeful it can help create strategies through which both the municipality and the team can gain, as opposed to simply asking the municipality for concessions.
The league is helping the Coyotes by providing detailed data from other franchises on revenue streams, especially those in nontraditional hockey markets.
Sources say the talks with the city "are in progress" but it's unknown how amenable Glendale officials are to making alterations to the lease.
Edit: No bites on proportionality or proper valuation? Hmmm.


Anyone know the rights wrt to the parking garage as originally written up?

 
Old
02-23-2011, 11:54 AM
  #97
PitbulI
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Totally objective post, equating this deal to a bank robbery. Just love it.
Well, that's pretty much what the COG council is doing to the taxpayers. They are abusing their right as government to force taxpayers to pay for a team while the chance of losing services they once had seems like a possibility.

Or do you believe that the parking revenue will pay for these bonds and the COG will make so much money on other things Coyotes related to cover the managment fee. Also, who's covering the arena payments still?

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02-23-2011, 11:55 AM
  #98
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I don't know about that - "prequel" got me thinking:

Episode I: The Fandom Menace - the pre-bankruptcy turmoil in the old Republic

Episode II: Attack of the Clowns (Moyes, JB, Rodier) - the BK saga

Episode III: Return of the ??? (hey, some posters consider GB a lightSabre short of being a Sith Lord) - the post-BK soap opera

Episode IV: A New Hope - the Matthew Hulsizer segment of tonight's entertainment

Episode V: The ??? Strikes Back (GWI, the economy, continued bad attendance, parking attendant strike) - the deal falls through or MH cannot make a successful run of it.

Episode VI: The Return of the Jets, Eh? - 'nuff said

So it looks like we may be looking at 60+ more threads.

"I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed
But remember, if you kill him, then you'll be unemployed"
Oh, my Yoda
Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda

Well, I heard my friends really got in a mess
So I'm gonna have to leave Yoda I guess
But I know that I'll be coming back some day
I'll be playing this part 'till I'm old and gray

The long-term contract I had to sign
Says I'll be making these movies till the end of time
Oh with my Yoda
Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda Yo-yo-yo-yo Yoda
this is probably the greatest post I've ever seen in the Phx threads.

This has to be added to each beginning now kdb, no exceptions.

Funny, you mentioned "Attack of the Clowns" ... right now the "Clown Wars" is still airing, actually in season 3

edit: I just realized this would have to take place between Ep 2 & 3 lol


Last edited by roccerfeller: 02-23-2011 at 12:02 PM.
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Old
02-23-2011, 11:56 AM
  #99
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Don't worry too much yotesreign, Crazy Mike sold half of his rights to Sony and his estate is in court over the second half... Seems he backed a loan with the other half... that shopping addiction got the better of him.

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02-23-2011, 12:10 PM
  #100
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Sure Genious KDB.. and even a small tribute to Wierd Al... my goodness.

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