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ZHERDEV clears waivers, remains on Flyers' roster (Thursday, Feb. 24)

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02-23-2011, 02:47 PM
  #226
Alchemy
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
1) You are aware that he signed Leighton to be our starter THIS YEAR, right? We were very fortunate that A) he got injured and that did not come to pass, and B) that Bob and Boosh stepped up HUGE. That was lucky.
I'm well aware of that. If you would go back into my post history you would see me criticizing Homer for even signing Leighton to that dumb ass contract. Especially when there were other options on the market. It's now a distant past because of the emergence of Bob and Boosh being a solid backup.
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2) I personally never said we couldn't re-sign Giroux and Carter. And if you re-read everything I've just been saying, you'll see that I'm talking about what happens after our current RFA contracts expire, and not many quality players are on the Phantoms.
You're right. But we don't have any quality players because most of our drafted players are on the BIG CLUB. Yeah our picks got traded. I'd do the Pronger trade 10 times out of 10. The Versteeg trade i'd do again. There is contracts coming off the books and the cap is rising. Who says those RFAs won't get resigned?

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Good management isn't blowing your load at the expense of the future. It's about being successful now and putting yourself in position to be successful later...Holmgren's gaffes do not put us in the best possible position to do both. That is a legitimate gripe.
Really? So we aren't successful now? The future? I guess Richards, Carter, Giroux, Coburn, Mez, JVR, and Hartnell are in their mid 30s right?


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Apparently you can't distinguish between legitimate criticism and hate. Nobody called you a fanboy, you did.
You called me a Holmgren hero right? I equate that to you sneakily calling me a fanboy.

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02-23-2011, 02:48 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
And almost everyone agrees. I was certainly fine with the Zherdev signing. I'm not sure who made the comment, or what the comment was that started the Homer discussion, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't one of us "Homer Haters".
How many times have we had this discussion, I actually agree with your stance on Homer. I just disagree with your opinion that the results do not trump the individual moves. Homer hater is what you are calling yourself, I'm not calling you that.

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02-23-2011, 02:48 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
We can't afford 1.7 in the minors? Tampa can't, it is good to be rich!
1) There's a contract limit in the NHL, you realize that, right? Meaning if you're burning a contract (for three years) that is a potential player you cannot acquire.

2) While Holmgren is a bit cavalier with paying people, I doubt he's THAT cavalier with his employer's money.

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02-23-2011, 02:48 PM
  #229
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Jester and others that I was talking to earlier:

I was in class and somewhat following along with the discussion about the Homer hate. It seems that you guys are all saying that you give him credit where he does well and criticize when he is bad. That very well may be the case, but from all the posts I have read since my time on here it seems to be the case that something good happens more often than the bad and yet the bad gets blown up to be the worst thing in the world every time.

Good moves are made left and right and the second a "bad" move is made the good is forgotten and rarely mentioned again unless someone is being called out for being too critical of Homer (at which point the fact that the Leino trade (or other move) was good and you give him credit for that). Now, I'm not saying that this board should be a lovefest of all Homer all the time boners, what I am really saying is that his good moves go largely by the wayside and his "bad" moves get blown way out of proportion. I saw posts about how Gagne could have been re-signed or how certain trades or signings were not good on here, but that stuff is all hindsight and easy to talk about now.

Sure, we could have kept Gagne if we didn't resign Leighton and sign Zherdev. But then would the team have gone after Meszaros (I know the Mez trade happened first, but I'm pretty sure at that point they had decided against Gagne)? There's no way of telling what this team would look like right now or where we would be. So it is real easy to talk about how bad some of these moves are. If the Flyers were not in the position they are in, ok the criticisms are perfectly fine. But the fact is the moves Homer has made have made this team better. Walker and Leighton didn't work for various reasons. Zherdev was good but not for this system.

There's no telling what could have been with Walker and Leighton had they not been injured. Yeah, they may have still sucked even if 100% for the whole season, but its just too speculative to say they were bad moves because they didn't work out. And its a cop out to say that he is lucky with Bob because of how he turned out. If that is a reason to take away from him because he got "lucky" then why not say his bad moves aren't his fault they were just "unlucky?" If Leighton isn't injured who is to say that he wouldn't be putting up the numbers Bob is putting up? Who is to say that if Walker was healthy all year he isn't a solid 7th d-man or even potentially starting over OD? The Zherdev move, I still think was a good one. Low risk high reward. You rarely get burned by those and even though it didn't work out, I don't think the Flyers necessarily got burned on that one anyway. Shelley wasn't a great signing and like I have said in other threads, yeah they probably are overpaying by a couple $100k, but he is a character guy that plays his role and is a great locker room presence. Homer isn't perfect, but he does not deserve the amount of criticism he gets on here.

EDIT: I realize that this may be feeding into your point that Homer supporters don't respond to the points raised, but like I said I was only somewhat following along and don't have the time to go back and read all the posts. If there is a topic/point I missed let me know and I will respond to it (or don't if you are sick of reading what I am writing )

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02-23-2011, 02:49 PM
  #230
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Yeah, there's no way I'm even going to try and read that.

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02-23-2011, 02:49 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yeah, there's no way I'm even going to try and read that.

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02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
  #232
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Passive aggressive note


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02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Actually, it's not really a long shot given the team that Holmgren expected to ice for 2010-11. It's a gamble, but 7-8 teams gamble every year. No team out there doesn't gamble. In fact, I'd say outside of the "legitimate" top 7-8 teams in the NHL, ones with the real depth and talent to contend, everyone else isn't even a wild card. At that point they're just betting on failed ventures. Ask Brian Burke what it's like to bet on failed ventures.



Or we could do what we do every year...

Try to take over the world?

No, waive contracts that become unimportant to us because of their return for salary investment.

It's not a shocking concept or a new concept.



I haven't read this discussion, but I've read enough posts by Jester to know that nothing is ever that simple. I don't buy it.



And the Holmgren Haters remind me of the kids in high school who swore they were smarter than all the kids who got straight As even though they themselves got Cs. All they have to do is apply themselves more? Right...
Of course, you were bound to show up at some point.

I have always been reluctant to jump in on this whole issue, and as such I know you haven't read the majority of my opinion on Holmgren, so kindly don't start making assumptions.

There are a large number of legitimate concerns regarding Holmgren's screw-ups. I've never, ever said he's done a bad job - only that he could be doing things better. I think that's perfectly fair.

I think this team could have been constructed with less of a gamble than Leighton/Boucher in net this year. When the season ends and Leighton/Walker come back on to the payroll, it'll mess with our abilities to re-sign players, eating into the amount that we can exceed by until we can re-waive them.

Just because a mistake is correctable by jumping through mistakes doesn't mean it couldn't/shouldn't have just been avoided.

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02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yeah, there's no way I'm even going to try and read that.

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02-23-2011, 02:50 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
We can't afford 1.7 in the minors? Tampa can't, it is good to be rich!
It's not that simple and you know it.

1) There's always the risk of re-entry (he's done it before)
2) Come the offseason he's back on the cap, and it could prove troublesome.
3) If he's hurt AGAIN we can't waive him (just as we couldn't earlier) which means he'd have to be on LTIR, which means we're then probably going to be actually utilizing that LTIR which means we aren't "banking" cap space....bla bla bla same old LTIR discussion.
4) Less important but, Walker will clearly still be one of the contracts on the 50 contract limit. Which is one less NCAA or undrafted FA prospect Homer can pursue (which is what he's been doing/had to do of late)

It's certainly not an ideal situation.

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02-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm assuming you're posting from a mobile device or something, but that's a massive wall of text.

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02-23-2011, 02:53 PM
  #237
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Create a new thread. Tag it. Sell it as Flyers' board LAW.

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02-23-2011, 02:53 PM
  #238
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Walker's getting knee surgery. Maybe we'll luck out and he'll have to retire.

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02-23-2011, 02:55 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I'm assuming you're posting from a mobile device or something, but that's a massive wall of text.
Did a little editing...better? Sorry I am in a hurry. Also I'm not trying to start a fight or be rude and I don't think I am insulting anyone (not trying to anyway), but I really just feel like Homer gets a bad rap on here.

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02-23-2011, 02:55 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
How many times have we had this discussion, I actually agree with your stance on Homer. I just disagree with your opinion that the results do not trump the individual moves. Homer hater is what you are calling yourself, I'm not calling you that.
I know. Didn't mean to imply you called me that. I now use the term "Homer haters" and "Apologists" or perhaps the newly dubbed "Homer Heroes" to describe the differeing viewpoints. It's basically Democrats and Republicans haha.

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02-23-2011, 02:55 PM
  #241
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I'm done with the Homer thing.

It will last all day. As it always does. Quite frankly i'm too stoned to keep on going.

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02-23-2011, 02:56 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Same old, same old really.

No one is really even being rude or over the top (perhaps until the last dozen posts). Us "haters" are merely pointing out faults in moves. The "apologists" are saying none of it matters because we are good.

Haters = the ends don't justify the means
Apologists = the ends justify the means

A philosophical difference of opinion that will probably never change.

This statement will probably get me in trouble, but I will say, IMO one of those groups does tend to deal with far more factual statements just through the nature in which they judge a GM, which is more micro than macro.
Agreed. As an apologist, I tend to think that a GM who turns a team from last in the NHL to first in the NHL is not as dumb as some feel. Has he made mistakes? Yes. But, most he corrected quickly. Some were due to injuries (cap problems when Briere was lost for the season, then came back with a few games left). There are bad trades, bad signings and bad decisions (Jones), but there are also many positives on the other side of the ledger.

The "aplogists" look at both sides of the ledger, add it all up and think that the results we are seeing is due to the many good moves the GM has made. Therefore, we are willing to forgive the bad moves. That is the difference for me.

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02-23-2011, 02:59 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I know. Didn't mean to imply you called me that. I now use the term "Homer haters" and "Apologists" or perhaps the newly dubbed "Homer Heroes" to describe the differeing viewpoints. It's basically Democrats and Republicans haha.
I'm from Canada Eh. Conservative and Liberal, I get it.

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02-23-2011, 02:59 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Did a little editing...better? Sorry I am in a hurry. Also I'm not trying to start a fight or be rude and I don't think I am insulting anyone (not trying to anyway), but I really just feel like Homer gets a bad rap on here.
I think what it comes down to is that every once in a while he does something that is (I use this phrase often) "mind numbingly dumb" (Randy Jones from the signing to re-entry). At which point, I know I personally blow up, because I just can't fathom how a man being paid to do this for a job can make a solitary mistake that obvious.

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02-23-2011, 02:59 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
Walker's getting knee surgery. Maybe we'll luck out and he'll have to retire.
It doesn't matter because when the time to use Walker's 1.7m on ANYTHING other than Walker comes, Holmgren will throw him under the bus like everyone else he has thrown under the bus for years.

I'm content with a GM who is not afraid to sweep his dirty laundry into the AHL for someone else to clean up while he handles more important issues.

A GM who brings that dirty laundry back up from the hamper is another story entirely...hopefully Holmgren has heard of "fool me once..."

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02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
I'm done with the Homer thing.

It will last all day. As it always does. Quite frankly i'm too stoned to keep on going.
Puff Puff give man! Your f'ing up the rotation bro.

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02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
  #247
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Also I just noticed that Craig Rivet got waived today. Anyone know if he would fit under the cap, or if he has anything left in the tank? Isn't he the captain of Buffalo? If so, that sucks to get waived as the captain.

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02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
I'm well aware of that. If you would go back into my post history you would see me criticizing Homer for even signing Leighton to that dumb ass contract. Especially when there were other options on the market. It's now a distant past because of the emergence of Bob and Boosh being a solid backup.


You're right. But we don't have any quality players because most of our drafted players are on the BIG CLUB. Yeah our picks got traded. I'd do the Pronger trade 10 times out of 10. The Versteeg trade i'd do again. There is contracts coming off the books and the cap is rising. Who says those RFAs won't get resigned?



Really? So we aren't successful now? The future? I guess Richards, Carter, Giroux, Coburn, Mez, JVR, and Hartnell are in their mid 30s right?




You called me a Holmgren hero right? I equate that to you sneakily calling me a fanboy.
I'll respond to each of your paragraphs in turn...

1) Leighton isn't in the distant past. We have a wasted, bloated contract on the books for another year. Additionally, we were very fortunate with that situation this year.

2) Yes, we have great talent on the big club, locked up for this year and next.

3) Do you really think we will continually be able to re-up Versteeg, Meszaros, Coburn, Giroux, JvR, Leino, Carle, and the other important complements we have? Of course not. Eventually we will lose some of them, and the problem is that right now, we don't have the cheap fill-in parts who can make an impact and make our team the powerhouse that it is now. In the salary cap era, you need to consistently have cheap talent on ELC or RFA deals; we're going to be losing some of our important pieces there, in all likelihood as soon as a couple years from now before we can replenish the minor league talent.

4) I didn't actually call you a Holmgren Hero; I was just pointing out how quickly people on here freak out as soon as you point out any mistakes he's made.

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02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
So of all the offseason acquisitions/signings we're left with just Shelley on the roster...resounding success I would say

Leighton= FAIL/FAILURE

Walker = FAIL/FAILURE

Zherdev= FAIL/FAILURE

Shelley = CUSP
Meszaros and O'Donnell turned out well.

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02-23-2011, 03:01 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Also I just noticed that Craig Rivet got waived today. Anyone know if he would fit under the cap, or if he has anything left in the tank? Isn't he the captain of Buffalo? If so, that sucks to get waived as the captain.
There is no way he fits under the cap.

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