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ZHERDEV clears waivers, remains on Flyers' roster (Thursday, Feb. 24)

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02-23-2011, 03:01 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I'm from Canada Eh. Conservative and Liberal, I get it.
I dont' get politics anyway haha. I can't even tell you what Democrat or Republican means. I live in a Sports and IT bubble.

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02-23-2011, 03:01 PM
  #252
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Agreed. As an apologist, I tend to think that a GM who turns a team from last in the NHL to first in the NHL is not as dumb as some feel. Has he made mistakes? Yes. But, most he corrected quickly. Some were due to injuries (cap problems when Briere was lost for the season, then came back with a few games left). There are bad trades, bad signings and bad decisions (Jones), but there are also many positives on the other side of the ledger.

The "aplogists" look at both sides of the ledger, add it all up and think that the results we are seeing is due to the many good moves the GM has made. Therefore, we are willing to forgive the bad moves. That is the difference for me.
The assumption that the criticism doesn't add up both sides of the ledger is a bit silly. You also ignore the fact that much of the criticism is hedged in the fear of future decisions. The problem with Homer is that many (and I mean the majority) of his mistakes are self-inflicted wounds. The whole Eminger debacle with all of its ramifications (literally every bad move that happened that season): self-inflicted. Randy Jones: self-inflicted. Keeping a bad coach around: self-inflicted. Emery was a situation that just didn't work out, but it was exacerbated by the team's lack of maneuverability. So on and so forth.

All of that takes place within the context of a team that has had more than enough talent to overcome many of his faults (though, they haven't had home ice in the playoffs to start yet... and, IMO, a lot of the blame for that rests with Holmgren).

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02-23-2011, 03:02 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
There is no way he fits under the cap.
He also got waived cuz he isn't all that good anymore. Was he still their captain?

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02-23-2011, 03:03 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He also got waived cuz he isn't all that good anymore. Was he still their captain?
Yeah he was still the captain.

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02-23-2011, 03:04 PM
  #255
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Yeah he was still the captain.
Yeah, that's a sorry state for a team in playoff contention.

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02-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The assumption that the criticism doesn't add up both sides of the ledger is a bit silly. You also ignore the fact that much of the criticism is hedged in the fear of future decisions. The problem with Homer is that many (and I mean the majority) of his mistakes are self-inflicted wounds.
And I find that a lot of the problem with that fear is that it causes people to ignore the most important point.

Mistakes do exist, but Holmgren, time and time again, has shown he has the capability and rationale to fix his mistakes in the most efficient way possible.

All GMs make mistakes. Not all GMs fix them. That is what inherently sets Holmgren apart from a lot of his peers.

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02-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #257
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Since the Soviets . . .

The Flyers or-gan-EYE-zay-shun will not tolerate Russian/Ukrainian players. Bob, your days are probably numbered too. Just sayin'

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02-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Yeah he was still the captain.
That is incredibly harsh...

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02-23-2011, 03:05 PM
  #259
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02-23-2011, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
The Flyers or-gan-EYE-zay-shun will not tolerate Russian/Ukrainian players. Bob, your days are probably numbered too. Just sayin'
Are you serious?

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02-23-2011, 03:07 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Are you serious?
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Originally Posted by Anthony SanFilippo
Kimmo Timonen offered some unexpected criticism of Sergei Bobrovsky and sort of through some support behind Brian Boucher... look for a story on this on delcotimes.com later tonight.
He's right

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02-23-2011, 03:08 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
The Flyers or-gan-EYE-zay-shun will not tolerate Russian/Ukrainian players. Bob, your days are probably numbered too. Just sayin'
Ugh.

Laviolette decides who gets playing time, and I tend to side with him blindly on these decisions. He's earned that amount of trust.

If he says Zherdev should not play, then Zherdev does not play. I'm cool with that.

He's still playing Bobrovsky, and I see no reason why it would stop. If Bobrovsky starts to overstay his shift, ignore the defensive aspects of the game, refuse to forecheck, and do whatever he wants to in the locker room, then we can worry.

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02-23-2011, 03:08 PM
  #263
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How does this affect Brobovski? If anything, Zherdev played as translator.

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02-23-2011, 03:08 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And I find that a lot of the problem with that fear is that it causes people to ignore the most important point.

Mistakes do exist, but Holmgren, time and time again, has shown he has the capability and rationale to fix his mistakes in the most efficient way possible.

All GMs make mistakes. Not all GMs fix them. That is what inherently sets Holmgren apart from a lot of his peers.
Just what has been efficient about pissing away assets to sell bad contracts off (sometimes in exchange for MORE BAD CONTRACTS)?

I think that's the biggest problem a lot of us have with him...he makes his own job a lot harder, and it has hamstrung this team from time to time. That's not to say he hasn't built a damn fine team, or accomplished a lot, because he has. At least for me, the problem is that for all his good moves, there are many incredibly stupid ones that seem to cause issues for what could have been winning teams.

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02-23-2011, 03:09 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by PuckBoy33 View Post
The Flyers or-gan-EYE-zay-shun will not tolerate Russian/Ukrainian players. Bob, your days are probably numbered too. Just sayin'
True, I think they acquired Malakhov and Zhamnov and played htem loads of minutes to punish them for the sins of their forebears.

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02-23-2011, 03:10 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
And I find that a lot of the problem with that fear is that it causes people to ignore the most important point.

Mistakes do exist, but Holmgren, time and time again, has shown he has the capability and rationale to fix his mistakes in the most efficient way possible.

All GMs make mistakes. Not all GMs fix them. That is what inherently sets Holmgren apart from a lot of his peers.
You mean by throwing away draft picks like candy, which leads to the farm system being gutted...

Yeah, you can fix your mistakes, but there's a cost to making mistakes in the first place. Mistakes beget other problems, and it's incredibly disingenuous to act as if that isn't so. Ignoring the overpayment for Eminger, that mistake (and lack of any other effort on the D that summer) led to a draft pick going to Boston for Alberts... the eventual Carle trade that led to Downie (who would look *ing fantastic on this roster, BTW) going to TB... and that acquisition finalized with Upshall getting dealt with a 2nd for Carcillo.

Some GMs, avoid those types of deals in the first place.

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02-23-2011, 03:12 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by tytech View Post
How does this affect Brobovski? If anything, Zherdev played as translator.
I don't think it will...Bartulis is still around, even if he's not on the ice. And for all that either Bartulis or Zherdev are in the defensive zone, I don't think it'll increase his amount of miscommunication.

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02-23-2011, 03:15 PM
  #268
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The assumption that the criticism doesn't add up both sides of the ledger is a bit silly. You also ignore the fact that much of the criticism is hedged in the fear of future decisions. The problem with Homer is that many (and I mean the majority) of his mistakes are self-inflicted wounds. The whole Eminger debacle with all of its ramifications (literally every bad move that happened that season): self-inflicted. Randy Jones: self-inflicted. Keeping a bad coach around: self-inflicted. Emery was a situation that just didn't work out, but it was exacerbated by the team's lack of maneuverability. So on and so forth.

All of that takes place within the context of a team that has had more than enough talent to overcome many of his faults (though, they haven't had home ice in the playoffs to start yet... and, IMO, a lot of the blame for that rests with Holmgren).
I agree on Eminger, Upshall, Jones and usual Homer mistakes (Shelley). However, I see many of the moves he has made as pure genius. The Forsberg deal rebuilt this franchise overnight. Lavy was not the coach most wanted, it was MacT, what a great hire that was. Pronger deal was pure gold. Coburn deal, Carle, Hartnell, Timonen, Briere signing, Richards deal, Carter deal, Giroux deal, Leino trade, Boucher signing, Leighton waiver pickup (regardless of how most feel about him, he played very well), Zherdev signing (it was a good move), Gagne trade (yes - I think getting the 5M off the books was genius, Meszaros trade (I know most disagree, but I think he is worth 3-3.5M and will replace Carle), Bobrovsky signing (Monster anyone?), etc. etc. Reese appears to be doing a great job with the goalies. I loved the JVR over Turris decision. Thought Ericsson was a great draft in a low round.

Anyway, point is - the positives (IMHO) outweight the usual criticisms. It wasn't long ago that many were calling for Homers head due to the Briere signing. He has earned every penny the past year or so. People thought we gave us too much for Pronger, now - most love that deal. If we win the cup, the Homer mistakes will be a thing of the past. He deserves some respect for what he has accomplished.

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02-23-2011, 03:16 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
At least for me, the problem is that for all his good moves, there are many incredibly stupid ones that seem to cause issues for what could have been winning teams.
I have a HUGE issue with this.

1) It implies the collective fanbase on HFboards is somehow more in tune with what Holmgren moves will be successful and which ones will be a failure when that is clearly not the case. Sure everyone saw Leighton as a bad idea, but basically at the same time everyone was crying foul over Meszaros.

and...

2) You're thinking in terms of black and white versus the usefulness of specific assets. Leighton at 1.55 would've been a useful asset as a goaltender. He would have won games for us. Not as many as Bob/Boosh but a hell of a lot more than any combination of Stewart, Riopel, and Backlund. If that was Holmgren's third choice behind a failed attempt at Turco and a failed attempt at Nabokov then so be it. Just because Leighton is viewed as a "failure" doesn't mean he would've been a failure. He's still a terrible goalie, but his numbers would've been fine, just like Bobrovsky and Boucher, who both get a TON of help from the team.

A lot of people fail to realize we haven't had a number one goalie all season; we still don't have that legitimate starter everyone wants. Neither Bobrovsky or Boucher are that guy. We seem to be doing fine.

So criticizing under the assumption that you know the outcome of a separate realm of causality that you were clearly not involved with sends up some major red flags.

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02-23-2011, 03:26 PM
  #270
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I agree on Eminger, Upshall, Jones and usual Homer mistakes (Shelley). However, I see many of the moves he has made as pure genius. The Forsberg deal rebuilt this franchise overnight.
The Forsberg deal did not rebuild the franchise overnight. He was dealt for Upshall, Parent, a 1st, and a 3rd.

The 1st was part of the UFA signings that brought in Timonen and Hartnell.... THAT is what turned the franchise around.

Parent (unfortunately) never did much for this organization.

The 3rd was part of the idiotic Eminger deal, I believe.

Upshall was a nice acquisition, but he didn't turn anything around... he was a nice role player that is fun to watch, and ultimately got shipped out in a TERRIBLE trade.

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Lavy was not the coach most wanted, it was MacT, what a great hire that was.
Based on what polling? MacT was an option, but there was a fair amount of criticism about the job he did in Edmonton... and I know more than a few people around here wanted Lavy.

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Pronger deal was pure gold.
Not sure about pure gold. He overpaid a bit to get him. Smart pickup, but it isn't like we stole him, and we did give up a lot to get him.

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Coburn deal, Carle, Hartnell, Timonen, Briere signing, Richards deal, Carter deal, Giroux deal, Leino trade, Boucher signing, Leighton waiver pickup (regardless of how most feel about him, he played very well), Zherdev signing (it was a good move), Gagne trade (yes - I think getting the 5M off the books was genius, Meszaros trade (I know most disagree, but I think he is worth 3-3.5M and will replace Carle), Bobrovsky signing (Monster anyone?), etc. etc. Reese appears to be doing a great job with the goalies.
Coburn deal was robbery... Carle deal... ugh. There are better D out there and we gave up a young forward who would look awesome in our lineup right now. Hartnell and Timonen were great signing, Briere meh... he's a bit overpaid for what he brings, but it was a necessary acquisition at the time. Richards and Carter deals are high-risk contracts... not a lot of genius goes in to offering guy a ton of money for a lot of years. Giroux deal is fine. The Leino trade was a smart one and no one has ever criticized it. Boucher has been a nice signing, and Leighton worked out. Re-signing him...ugh.

I don't know how you can argue that the Zherdev signing was a "good" move. Terrible? No. But it was a gamble that didn't work out, which is why he's on waivers.

Gagne deal was brutal for a lot of reasons.

Meszaros has played well for this team, but no one questioned whether he could handle the role he'd be given here.

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I loved the JVR over Turris decision. Thought Ericsson was a great draft in a low round.
Holmgren is fantastic in the draft. Too bad we never have any picks to take advantage of that skill.

Quote:
Anyway, point is - the positives (IMHO) outweight the usual criticisms. It wasn't long ago that many were calling for Homers head due to the Briere signing. He has earned every penny the past year or so. People thought we gave us too much for Pronger, now - most love that deal. If we win the cup, the Homer mistakes will be a thing of the past. He deserves some respect for what he has accomplished.
Briere is the 22nd highest paid forward in the league... do you really feel he's the 22nd best forward in the NHL right now?

He's been a better player the past year or so, but he's not earning every penny of that contract. However, UFAs rarely do.

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02-23-2011, 03:28 PM
  #271
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Homer could win 6 cups in a row, and the fans still would rip into his moves. I just find it funny that people offer absolutly no praise for some of his moves either. Just willing to jump on the hate bandwagon

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02-23-2011, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I have a HUGE issue with this.

1) It implies the collective fanbase on HFboards is somehow more in tune with what Holmgren moves will be successful and which ones will be a failure when that is clearly not the case. Sure everyone saw Leighton as a bad idea, but basically at the same time everyone was crying foul over Meszaros.

and...

2) You're thinking in terms of black and white versus the usefulness of specific assets. Leighton at 1.55 would've been a useful asset as a goaltender. He would have won games for us. Not as many as Bob/Boosh but a hell of a lot more than any combination of Stewart, Riopel, and Backlund. If that was Holmgren's third choice behind a failed attempt at Turco and a failed attempt at Nabokov then so be it. Just because Leighton is viewed as a "failure" doesn't mean he would've been a failure. He's still a terrible goalie, but his numbers would've been fine, just like Bobrovsky and Boucher, who both get a TON of help from the team.

A lot of people fail to realize we haven't had a number one goalie all season; we still don't have that legitimate starter everyone wants. Neither Bobrovsky or Boucher are that guy. We seem to be doing fine.

So criticizing under the assumption that you know the outcome of a separate realm of causality that you were clearly not involved with sends up some major red flags.
Even if he had gone with Leighton, he should have had him cheaper, and should/could have explored other FA options. If nothing else, it could have seen the price of Leighton go down...and even a few hundred grand in cap savings makes a difference.

And both Bobrovsky and Boucher are better than Leighton; Bobrovsky much more so. (Note: no, I'm not saying either are legitimate starting goaltenders. Bobrovsky will get there eventually and is capable enough now, while Boucher remains a glorified backup.)


I don't claim to know that any outcomes would have been different, but a lot of Holmgren's failings have had effects that MAY have been the reason for more failures. That's a big problem when you're evaluating a manager, even if you're too big of a fan to see it.


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02-23-2011, 03:31 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I have a HUGE issue with this.

1) It implies the collective fanbase on HFboards is somehow more in tune with what Holmgren moves will be successful and which ones will be a failure when that is clearly not the case. Sure everyone saw Leighton as a bad idea, but basically at the same time everyone was crying foul over Meszaros.
You say this as if this as if that is the only line of critique for Holmgren... Not every decision is weighed on that scale, and you know it.

Everyone was crying foul over Meszaros because of his contract and the amount we were putting into the defense at that point (many of us still view that as problematic... for reasons we're about to get to). Additionally, when we acquired Meszaros is hamstrung our budget, and, of course, we followed that up with an atrocious deal that got rid of Gagne.

Quote:
and...

2) You're thinking in terms of black and white versus the usefulness of specific assets. Leighton at 1.55 would've been a useful asset as a goaltender. He would have won games for us. Not as many as Bob/Boosh but a hell of a lot more than any combination of Stewart, Riopel, and Backlund. If that was Holmgren's third choice behind a failed attempt at Turco and a failed attempt at Nabokov then so be it. Just because Leighton is viewed as a "failure" doesn't mean he would've been a failure. He's still a terrible goalie, but his numbers would've been fine, just like Bobrovsky and Boucher, who both get a TON of help from the team.

A lot of people fail to realize we haven't had a number one goalie all season; we still don't have that legitimate starter everyone wants. Neither Bobrovsky or Boucher are that guy. We seem to be doing fine.

So criticizing under the assumption that you know the outcome of a separate realm of causality that you were clearly not involved with sends up some major red flags.
Really? Haven't seen too many people failing to realize that. However, both Bob and Boucher have played excellent for much of the year. Boucher, in particular, has played well ahead of what he was doing last year when he was often beat by first shots.

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02-23-2011, 03:33 PM
  #274
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Homer could win 6 cups in a row, and the fans still would rip into his moves. I just find it funny that people offer absolutly no praise for some of his moves either. Just willing to jump on the hate bandwagon
We covered this a couple pages back; he gets praise, even from us haters.

But you're right to some extent. Even if Homer wins 6 cups in a row I will continute to criticize him for a bad decision. People aren't perfect nor are they incapable of being criticized.

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02-23-2011, 03:34 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
Meszaros and O'Donnell turned out well.
Please post the follow up posts as well...otherwise we get into contextual arguments again...thank you. This was acknowledged and expounded upon

and I repeat


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