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Old
02-24-2011, 01:47 PM
  #26
Naki
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
At least DW knew when to cut bait with these guys. This team would still be loaded with some of these guys if left to the voting block on this board.
and on top of knowing when to cut them loose, DW also managed to get something back in return for these guys who can't stay in the NHL now.

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02-24-2011, 01:48 PM
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How would you propose that we predict the future a bit better, Mystic Meg? I'd love to know if you do lottery numbers too?

Uh, they're paid to do a job and it's analyzing talent and pretty much guess how they'd help the team. If they fail at it, they don't get the crystal ball b.s. excuse. Otherwise, what the hell are they even getting paid to do if results don't matter?

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02-24-2011, 01:50 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
How would you propose that we predict the future a bit better, Mystic Meg? I'd love to know if you do lottery numbers too?

The Sharks have had essentially the same scouting staff since their first season. In that time the Sharks have had 5 top 5 picks and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Marleau. They've had 9 top 10 picks and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Patty Marleau. They've had 13 top 15 picks, and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Marleau.

It's a consistent failure to identify top talent.

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02-24-2011, 01:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Uh, they're paid to do a job and it's analyzing talent and pretty much guess how they'd help the team. If they fail at it, they don't get the crystal ball b.s. excuse. Otherwise, what the hell are they even getting paid to do if results don't matter?
It seems like they are doing a bit better job of evaluating talent now. Pavelski and Couture both seem to have the drive and desire to win that keeps them from being lazy. Whereas Bernier had all the skills but none of the desire.

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02-24-2011, 01:53 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Uh, they're paid to do a job and it's analyzing talent and pretty much guess how they'd help the team. If they fail at it, they don't get the crystal ball b.s. excuse. Otherwise, what the hell are they even getting paid to do if results don't matter?
This. Ever since Doug Wilson took over, the Sharks' first round drafting record has been embarrassingly atrocious, although in the interest of giving credit where it's due, they have been able to cull a few gems from the later rounds. Seto was taken over Kopitar just because Kopi is from Slovenia (at least according to Tim Burke), Wishart is a bust, Petrecki is finally rounding into form but was still a poor selection with Subban still on the board, and of course, DW saved his staff the embarrassment of first round picks in 08 and 09. Coyle looks like he could be a keeper though.

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02-24-2011, 01:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Uh, they're paid to do a job and it's analyzing talent and pretty much guess how they'd help the team. If they fail at it, they don't get the crystal ball b.s. excuse. Otherwise, what the hell are they even getting paid to do if results don't matter?
I'd love to see some of the 'big shots' on this board give predicting the future a try. Most of the whingers make it sound like it's a case of just stepping up and selecting a star...

All of you have wonderful hindsight though, I'm sure you'd be brilliant at drafting.

After all, look at how bad this team is doing! We must suck as an organisation as we're languishing near the foot of the NH... oh, wait, is that really the standings? Oh. Right...

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02-24-2011, 01:57 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
This. Ever since Doug Wilson took over, the Sharks' first round drafting record has been embarrassingly atrocious, although in the interest of giving credit where it's due, they have been able to cull a few gems from the later rounds. Seto was taken over Kopitar just because Kopi is from Slovenia (at least according to Tim Burke), Wishart is a bust, Petrecki is finally rounding into form but was still a poor selection with Subban still on the board, and of course, DW saved his staff the embarrassment of first round picks in 08 and 09. Coyle looks like he could be a keeper though.
And that Couture kid is a complete bust! Bad scouting DW!

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02-24-2011, 01:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
I'd love to see some of the 'big shots' on this board give predicting the future a try. Most of the whingers make it sound like it's a case of just stepping up and selecting a star...

All of you have wonderful hindsight though, I'm sure you'd be brilliant at drafting.

After all, look at how bad this team is doing! We must suck as an organisation as we're languishing near the foot of the NH... oh, wait, is that really the standings? Oh. Right...
Oh, have they started handing out Stanley Cups for being 3rd in the Western Conference on February 24th?

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02-24-2011, 01:58 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
I'd love to see some of the 'big shots' on this board give predicting the future a try. Most of the whingers make it sound like it's a case of just stepping up and selecting a star...

All of you have wonderful hindsight though, I'm sure you'd be brilliant at drafting.

After all, look at how bad this team is doing! We must suck as an organisation as we're languishing near the foot of the NH... oh, wait, is that really the standings? Oh. Right...
I agree, the Sharks haven't been amazing at 1st round selection, but I'll take a scouting staff that constantly picks well 2nd-7th over one that only picks well in the 1st.

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02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #35
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And that Couture kid is a complete bust! Bad scouting DW!
He was taken in the top ten; the hit rate is obviously much higher across the board. I wanted to highlight the organization's failures in turning their late first-round picks into NHL players when many other teams are able to do so.

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02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #36
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I will still proudly sport my Bernier jersey to the games

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02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Naki View Post
It seems like they are doing a bit better job of evaluating talent now. Pavelski and Couture both seem to have the drive and desire to win that keeps them from being lazy. Whereas Bernier had all the skills but none of the desire.
Pavelski wasn't a first round pick though. He was far from a first round pick.

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02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Oh, have they started handing out Stanley Cups for being 3rd in the Western Conference on February 24th?
Don't think I said we'd won the cup.

Don't think the sky is falling like a large number on here though. It's like the W.I. with all the moaning... something, ANYTHING! We all have keyboards so we MUST be better at it than Wilson!

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02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Naki View Post
It seems like they are doing a bit better job of evaluating talent now. Pavelski and Couture both seem to have the drive and desire to win that keeps them from being lazy. Whereas Bernier had all the skills but none of the desire.
Our scouting staff has its positives and negatives. I'm not going to say that they suck but they've definitely got issues. The 1st round is a pretty damn big issue to have as that is where you will get the best players and there are many instances where the GM is moving out assets to make such a selection. Thus, their ability to be accurate on their analysis is critical.

Couture is a good pick that they've made. Pavelski was pure luck. Damn near every pick anyone makes past the 3rd round is pure luck. But the first two rounds are where the scouts make their money and spend most of their time so the results should reflect that and if they don't, they have to be criticized. This particular group for the Sharks don't have a good track record where it counts. They've had good picks but they don't identify the best ones and they don't take risks in the early rounds.

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Old
02-24-2011, 01:59 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
How would you propose that we predict the future a bit better, Mystic Meg? I'd love to know if you do lottery numbers too?

Haven't seen any Miss Cleo commercials in a while, I'm sure she is in need of a job...

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02-24-2011, 02:03 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Our scouting staff has its positives and negatives. I'm not going to say that they suck but they've definitely got issues. The 1st round is a pretty damn big issue to have as that is where you will get the best players and there are many instances where the GM is moving out assets to make such a selection. Thus, their ability to be accurate on their analysis is critical.

Couture is a good pick that they've made. Pavelski was pure luck. Damn near every pick anyone makes past the 3rd round is pure luck. But the first two rounds are where the scouts make their money and spend most of their time so the results should reflect that and if they don't, they have to be criticized. This particular group for the Sharks don't have a good track record where it counts. They've had good picks but they don't identify the best ones and they don't take risks in the early rounds.
Do you really believe that?
You don't think they spend as much time scouting later round talent as they do the 1st or 2nd round? If that's the case, then yes - the entire staff should be fired!! This organization doesn't really go for the most talented player at any draft position, they put a LOT of stock into intangibles. Whether or not that's a good thing is a matter of option.

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02-24-2011, 02:04 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
I'd love to see some of the 'big shots' on this board give predicting the future a try. Most of the whingers make it sound like it's a case of just stepping up and selecting a star...

All of you have wonderful hindsight though, I'm sure you'd be brilliant at drafting.

After all, look at how bad this team is doing! We must suck as an organisation as we're languishing near the foot of the NH... oh, wait, is that really the standings? Oh. Right...
You obviously think it's as simple as predicting the future. This is a piss poor argument for what is being discussed. They have a job and if it was just a matter of 'predicting the future' as you like to simplistically put it, there would be no point in funding the damn department. And they're judged on results just like everyone else in pro sports. If you don't judge talent and pick well, you will get fired. Simple as that.

The place in the standings that the Sharks enjoy don't give them a free pass for some of the poor selections they've made over the years. This notion you have that since they can't predict the future, they don't have any accountability is disgusting.

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Old
02-24-2011, 02:05 PM
  #43
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Not again! Just say no.

I have to echo what others have stated, glad DW was able to get rid of this one and others in the past. I give him credit for that.

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02-24-2011, 02:08 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Do you really believe that?
You don't think they spend as much time scouting later round talent as they do the 1st or 2nd round? If that's the case, then yes - the entire staff should be fired!! This organization doesn't really go for the most talented player at any draft position, they put a LOT of stock into intangibles. Whether or not that's a good thing is a matter of option.
They definitely spend their time on the hundreds of players that could be drafted but they damn sure spend most of their time on the prospects they feel will be in the earlier rounds. And the higher your draft selection, the more emphasis is put on the guys you will pick first more than the later rounds.

And the numbers for draft picks past the third round show that it's luck. It's luck that you picked the guy. The teams that have the most success in the later rounds have a somewhat decent developmental program attached to them and that's where they make those players gems.

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02-24-2011, 02:09 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by USF Shark View Post
The Sharks have had essentially the same scouting staff since their first season. In that time the Sharks have had 5 top 5 picks and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Marleau. They've had 9 top 10 picks and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Patty Marleau. They've had 13 top 15 picks, and only ONE has turned into a top pairing/top-line player...Marleau.

It's a consistent failure to identify top talent.

How about

Stuart
Hannan

Both of those guys are first rounders who would be top pairing Dman in many books.

Marleau, Fallon, Kozlov, Sturm, Michalek are all players who would come in in discussions about first line players (at some point in their career).

I think what you mean is that other than Marleau they have unsuccessfully pick a true star in the first round of the draft.

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02-24-2011, 02:12 PM
  #46
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Picking up Pavelski in the 7th round make me feel a lot better about that draft. What else is sick think of what the Pens would be like if they had gone with Staal *inside* of Fleury
Not one to point out typos so much, but the *'d one . . . amazing. And uh . . . sick? . . . not gonna risk an infraction but you made me chortle like a school boy dude.

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02-24-2011, 02:12 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
You obviously think it's as simple as predicting the future. This is a piss poor argument for what is being discussed. They have a job and if it was just a matter of 'predicting the future' as you like to simplistically put it, there would be no point in funding the damn department. And they're judged on results just like everyone else in pro sports. If you don't judge talent and pick well, you will get fired. Simple as that.

The place in the standings that the Sharks enjoy don't give them a free pass for some of the poor selections they've made over the years. This notion you have that since they can't predict the future, they don't have any accountability is disgusting.
Pick just about any team in the NHL and you are going to find mixed first round results. The entire draft is depended on huge amounts of luck.

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02-24-2011, 02:14 PM
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Not one to point out typos so much, but the *'d one . . . amazing. And uh . . . sick? . . . not gonna risk an infraction but you made me chortle like a school boy dude.
Cut me a bit of slack, working off a touch screen HTC. Great phone terrible keyboard. Doesn't help that i never proof read anything either.

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02-24-2011, 02:15 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They definitely spend their time on the hundreds of players that could be drafted but they damn sure spend most of their time on the prospects they feel will be in the earlier rounds. And the higher your draft selection, the more emphasis is put on the guys you will pick first more than the later rounds.

And the numbers for draft picks past the third round show that it's luck. It's luck that you picked the guy. The teams that have the most success in the later rounds have a somewhat decent developmental program attached to them and that's where they make those players gems.
Are you a scout or do you work in a scouting department somewhere 'cus you make it sound like this is fact...teams employ a lot of scouns for that very reason, there are 7 rounds in a draft and teams want to make sure they know the players they're selecting.

It's not luck that players past the 3rd turn into very good NHLers. You say it's the teams developmental program but teams pick certain players knowing what they're talent and skill levels are so that they can put them into a situation where they can be developed. Yes, it's hit or miss, as it turns out so are a LOT of 1st and 2nd round picks. But teams put a lot of effort into scouting late round picks.

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Old
02-24-2011, 02:16 PM
  #50
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Datsuk 171rst
Lidstrom 53rd
Zetterberg 210th
Franzen 97th
Filppula 95th
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