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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VI

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02-25-2011, 08:09 AM
  #51
EagleBelfour
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Ya ya, I know some people don't like when GM's are posting their biographies in the draft thread, but when you spend around 12 hours on everyone of them, you like that more than 1 person (aka myself) read them!

----

What I've found on Corbeau:

- The guy was tough. One of the biggest and toughest of his generation. I won't comment further

- His offensive statistics speak for themselves. I'm not very good into crushing the numbers like 70's, but I'm sure he's going to comment on them extensively. For my part, I think they look pretty good, considering the competition. He never was an elite offensive defenceman ala Harry Cameron or Buck Boucher, but he was surprisingly constant. He might not have been a great goalscorer, as even with the constant results he never was close to the league leader, but I was surprise by his assist finish. I might have overrate him as a goalscorer, but underrated him as a passer.

- I was happy to read on multiple occasion that Corbeau was a speedy player. I was kind of surprise actually. You think a player of his magnitude would be a slow skater, but seems it was not the case. I didn't read extensive report on how fast he was, but considering everything I would say he was an above average skater, which for me is the biggest revelation on Corbeau. EDIT: on further review, both quotes come from the same newspaper, in less than a weeks span, so I can't give full credit for them. However, the feel I've got from reading on Corbeau is that he was a very mobile defenceman for his size, so he might have been an above average skater. It's difficult to judge the difference between mobility and speed in newspaper dated 90 years ago.

- Defensively, I don't have much, other than two or three game reports were he was praised. But again, I didn't read one instance of Corbeau playing bad defensively. I would consider in adequate or average, whic is still far more than what most people thought he was.

All in all, it's probably the biography where I learned the most. Corbeau was definitely a far more complete hockey player than he was giving credit for. However, he never was an elite defenceman, so it's probably a reason why he flew under the radar. He was a good and steady defenceman for 15 years in the top league. His toughness and bodychecking ability is legendary, but he also bring a good amount of offense, some speed from the backend and some steady defensive play. I don't think he was a reach by any means. I think he deserve a selection around the time he was taken, which make him an excellent #4 in the ATD.

What you guys think?


You can read the complete, non edited biography here:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=3...3&postcount=83

PS. My Cecil Dillon is complete, I'm just waiting for JFA, who's kind enough to provide me some quotes from his books. I will post the results in the following days.


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-25-2011 at 09:37 AM.
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Old
02-25-2011, 08:10 AM
  #52
EagleBelfour
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With our 8th selection, the 317th overall in this year All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons are extremely please to select defenceman Bertram Orian Corbeau



Name: Pig Iron, Blonde Giant
Height: 5'11''
Weight: 200 lbs
Position: Defense
Shoots: Right
Date of Birth: February 09, 1894
Place of Birth: Penetanguishene , Ontario, Canada
Date of Death: September 21, 1942 (Age: 48)

Stanley Cup Champion (1916)
Stanley Cup Finalist (1917, 1918, 1919)
Team Captain (1925, 1927)
Penetanguishene Sports Hall of Fame (1987)


National Hockey Association (1914-1917)

SeasonsGPGAPTSPIM
36015621256

Top-10 Assist (9th)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes (1st, 2nd)
Top-5 Scoring among defenceman (6th)
Top-5 Assist among defenceman (4th)
Top-5 Penalty Minutes among defenceman (1st, 1st)

PlayoffsGPGAPTSPIM
21642689

1915-16: I could only find the playoff statistics of the Montreal Canadiens. Corbeau recorded 1 assist and 67 penalty minutes in 10 games. He finished 6th in scoring, 3rd in assists and 2nd in penalty minutes on 10 players.
1916-17: The Montreal Canadiens played against the Ottawa Senators. Corbeau recorded 4 goals, 1 assists and 22 penalty minutes in 6 games. He finished 2nd in points and 2nd in goals, only behind Didier Pitre. He also finished 4th in assists and 5th in penalty minutes on 20 players.


National Hockey League (1917-1927)

SeasonsGPGAPTSPIM
102586349112629

Top-10 Assist (3rd, 6th, 11th)
Top-10 Penalty Minutes (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 10th)
Top-5 Scoring among defenceman (3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th)
Top-5 Goalscoring among defenceman (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th)
Top-5 Assist among defenceman (2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th)
Top-5 Penalty Minutes among defenceman (1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd)

Bert Corbeau's competition:
PlayersTeamYearsAge
Georges BoucherOttawa Senators1917-192721 to 31
Harry CameronToronto Arenas, Ottawa Senators, Toronto St-Pats, Montreal Canadiens1917-192327 to 33
King ClancyOttawa Senators1921-192718 to 24
Sprague CleghornOttawa Senators, Toronto St-Pats, Montreal Canadiens1918-192728 to 37
Eddie GerardOttawa Senators, Toronto St-Pats1917-192327 to 33
xxxMontreal Canadiens, Toronto Arenas, Quebec Bulldogs, Hamilton Tigers1917-192328 to 33
Reg NobleToronto Arenas, Montreal Maroons1918-1919; 1925-192722 to 23; 29 to 31
xxxToronto St-Pats, New York Americans1919-1920; 1924-192729 to 30; 34 to 37


PlayoffsGPGAPTSPIM
21642689

1918-19: The Montreal Canadiens played against the Ottawa Senators. Corbeau recorded 1 goals, 2 assists and 13 penalty minutes in 10 games. He was the highest scoring defenceman of his team (Joe Hall and xxx).
1924-25: Corbeau recorded 6 penalty minutes in 2 games in what seems to be a very eventless playoff for him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier's Hockey Greatest Legends
Corbeau was a big man in his day, noted for his physical presence and goal scoring ability from the blue line. I liken him to a bit of a cross between the modern day Hatcher brothers. Corbeau had big xxx's penchant for offense, but was more of Derian's mentality - mean and aggressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Canadiens; Our History
A 5-foot-11, 200-pounder from Penetanguishene, ON, Albert “Bert” Corbeau spent eight seasons patrolling the Montreal blue line, playing a significant role in the Canadiens’ early successes.

Seeing regular action in all 24 games, he proved to be adept at leading a rush up the ice, finding the twine seven times, a mark he would match or better in all but two of the other winters he’d spend in Montreal.

Corbeau also showed he knew how to make effective use of his size, leading all Habs with 134 penalty minutes as opponents around the league found out for themselves just how tough he could be when challenged.

A reputation for rugged play solidified after a 1916-17 season that saw him once again finish tops among Habs with 103 penalty minutes, and Corbeau was able to concentrate on more offensive aspects of the game. A capable playmaker in an era when assists were much rarer than the goals they accompanied, he lit the lamp nine times in the NHA’s final season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The midland Free Press; A book about a man they called Pig Iron'
And things were different back then. Gregoire says that Corbeau was known for his toughness and ruthlessness.

Corbeau was 5'11 and 200 lbs. in his playing days -large for his era -and Gregoire says that his rivalries with opposing players were legendary. He would spear, slash and hook opponents, who would return the favour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clancy, The King's Story
There was Bert Corbeau, who also played with Montreal at the time. He was a great big roughneck who later come to be a good friend of mine. The first time I played against Corbeau in Montreal, he cross-checked me across the back of the neck and sent me flying into the chickenwire. I fell down and of course he fell in top of me - knees first. Only his relative would of called it an accident! When I was able to stagger on my feet, I wanted to remind Corbeau that he shouldn't get the idea that he could throw me around like an empty flour sack anytime he felt like it. I swung my stick at hime and splintered it across his broad back. He didn't even flinch. I don't think he even noticed! Both of us were thumbed off to the penalty box. I still had a bit of a chip on my shoulder, so when he stepped into the box I gave him a push from behind and down he fell in the aisle. Scrambling to his feet, he turned on me like he was about to murder me on the spot. He could of made my first year also my last one, because he was a huge bulk of a man who'd been around enough to know all the tricks. I showed him some of the bob-and-weave I'd learned in Ottawa but was smart enough to not wade in.

Finally he cooled off a bit and sat down. When he got settled away in the penalty box with a big policeman in between us (for whose protection? I wonder), Corbeau turned to me and growled: ''I don't know you kid. I don't even know your name. But you're living on borrowed time because you'll last about two weeks in this league the way you play hockey.'' As it turned out, Corbeau was a better pugilist than prophet, because I lasted in that league a good deal longer than two weeks. But if he'd ever caught me with those big meathooks of his, I'd be lucky to last two minutes!

Toronto had some good players, fellow like Babe Dye, Reg Noble, Bert Corbeau, Hap Day, xxx, and xxx who played in goals. This was quite a hockey team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60 years of hockey: the intimate story behind North America's fastest, most exciting sport : complete statistics and records
Conn Smythe finally assigned his 210-pound defense- man Bert Corbeau the task of stopping Morenz [...] a player who was often called "150 pounds of muscle and conversation" and who had been around the NHL for 9 seasons. Corbeau braced himself at the blue line as Morenz swept in and caught Howie with a terrific check that sent him sprawling. As Morenz hit the ice, Corbeau grinned over at the Leafs bench and yelled at Smythe: ''See that, Mr. Smythe? I stopped him for you.''
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice hockey A to Z
Their early heroes included goalie Georges Vezina, defenseman Bert Corbeau and the forward line of Newsy Lalonde
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kings of the ice: a history of world hockey
(In his time in Toronto) and Bert Corbeau, the team's star player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Defencemen: Stars of Hockey's Golden Age
The 1921-22 version of the Canadiens was tough featuring the likes of Sprague Cleghorn and Bert ''Pig Iron'' Corbeau.

Corbeau didn't earned his nickname from fancy pirouettes or sparkling plays. He was a strong, aggressive defenceman who could bodycheck an unsuspecting opponent into the middle of next week, as well as contribute a respectable amount of offence for a blueliner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fever Season
We'll see how fast Frank Foyston and Jack Walker are moving once Bert's start to throw his weight around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Daily Mail; Canadiens Scored Victory (03/08/1917)
Bert Corbeau and xxx put up great game on the defence. Bert probably the best game he has shown this season. He was in the thick of the battle from start to finish and also is credited in scoring the Flying Frenchman's initial tally. Corbeau checked hard and took a big hand in the offensive movement of his team. He was cut over the eye when Darragh shot, while ''Cy'' Denneny opened up a big gash of his throat by jabbing him with the butt end of his stick, but he came back each time.

Pitre and Corbeau rushed the puck down the ice. Pitre drew the Ottawa defence out, and then passed over to Corbeau who, notwithstanding the fact that Benedict got down on his knees in an effort to save, slipped the puck into the twine for the first tally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Daily Mail; Seattle Fan Do Not Like Rough Work of Canadiens --- Betting Now at Even Money (03/22/1917)
There's a possibility that Bert Corbeau, husky defence player of the flying frenchman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader; Western Rules Tonight Again in Big Series (03/23/1917)
(Report before the 3rd game of the Stanley Cup Final) Bert Corbeau and Frank Foyston have been the most valuable man to their teams so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader; Bert Corbeau serves notice on ''bad men'' (03/04/1918)
Bert Corbeau, the hockey player mention in the following in the Toronto News, is a brother of E.C Corbeau in this city. Bert is a big fellow, standing well over six-feet and can skate like a whirlwind. Some of the small ''bad men'' in the National Hockey League have taken advantage of Bert's size, but herewith he serves notice on them to lay off him for the balance of the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader; Canadiens Play Good Match At The Arena Rink (03/14/1919)
Bert Corbeau, the big brother of E.C. of this city, and who is known as the ''Blonde Giant'' of the National League, showed himself to be every bit as good as he is reputed to be according to the reports from the east. Both on the defence and on the attack Bert showed his speed and stickhandling ability. During the game, Bert scored three goals and made one assists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morning Leader; Con Corbeau is Dead Results of Heart Attack (06/17/1920)
He is a brother of E.C Corbeau formerly of Regina and Bert Corbeau, of the Montreal Canadiens, rated as one of the best defence men in the game today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette; Corbeau Jumps to New League (11/05/1920)
(As Corbeau was supposed to quit the team prior to the 1920-21 season) The Loss of Corbeau to the Canadiens is undoubtedly a big blow to the team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa Citizen; ''Babe Dye'' Elected Captain of St-Pats (11/12/1925)
xxx, the veteran center player, reported with considerable less surplus weight than he customarily commences the season with, as did Bert Corbeau, St-Pats sterling defence player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Journal; St-Pats lose to Montreal (02/10/1926)
St-Patrick hopes for victory was blasted when it was learned that Bert Corbeau had received injuries forcing him our of the game. St-Patricks' defence was noticeably weak without Bert's service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Journal; Cy Denneny's Two Goals Gave Ottawa Wins Over St-Pats (02/12/1926)
Babe Dye, xxx and Day stood out for the losers, with xxx playing a hard, useful game. Corbeau was great defensively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star; St-Pats Engaged (11/02/1926)
Bert Corbeau, the Evergreen defence stalwart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Montreal Gazette; Saint-Patricks and Ottawa Finished in Two-Goals Draw (11/26/1926)
Standing out in the fine showing made by the Irish was the brilliant defensive exhibition given by the veteran Bert Corbeau. [...] Ottawa pressed hard, but could not pierced St.Pats defence. Corbeau got a hand for a sensational rush, but Connell saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star; Suggesting Award for Most Durable Player
Herbie Gardiner, rugged defence star of the Canadien team, stand out as a relic of the days when such ''Iron Men'' as Eddie Gerard, Bert Corbeau in his prime, xxx, and other stalwarts held sway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Border Cities Star; Call 'Em Ravinas (10/25/1927)
Frank Selke, manager of the Ravinas of the Cam-Pro League, made no mistake by when he signed up Bert Corbeau, the veteran defence man, release by the Toronto Leafs to his club, and appointed him as captain of the new team. Corbeau has been on the ''big club'' for 16 years and may have slowed up a bit, but there was never a more honest player in a pro uniform than the same Corneau. Win, lose or draw, he gave his employers the best that he had in him all the times, and you can bet all the shillaleighs in Ireland that he will give Selke 100 percent at all time.

Biography & Personal Life:
Bert Corbeau was born on February 9, 1894 in Penetanguishene, Ontario, a little town located on the southeasterly tip of Georgian Bay. In 1913, after playing minor hockey in Penetanguishene, Corbeau ventured to Halifax to sharpen and expand his hockey skills in a minor league. He signed his first professional contract with the Crescent of the Maritime Professional Hockey League. That league, the MPHL, was one step below the National Hockey Association, the forerunner to the National Hockey League. The next season, Corbeau signed with the Montreal Canadians, a team for which he would play the following eight season.

At the time, Bert was not the first Corbeau to play in the National Hockey Association. Indeed, his brother Con, 9 years his senior and even heavier than his little brother, tipping the scale at 225 pounds, played in various professional league during the 1900's and 1910's. Most notably, Con won the Stanley Cup with the Toronto Blueshirts of the NHA in 1914. Unfortunately, Con died of a heart failure on June 14, 1920, at the young age of 35 years old.

In 1916, only two years after his older brother won the Stanley Cup, Bert won his first and only Cup with the Montreal Canadiens. Three years later, in his fourth consecutive appearance in the Stanley Cup Finals, the playoffs were marked as the only time in NHL history that a Stanley Cup champion was not crowned. With the championship series between the Montreal Canadiens and the Seattle Metropolitans tied 2-2-1, the rest of the series was cancelled due to a serious outbreak of influenza. It turns out that was the closest Corbeau ever came to playing for a championship team in the NHL.

The atmosphere in pro hockey rinks in the early 1900's was far more reckless than the laid-back mannerisms displayed by most of today’s fans. As historian Waxy Gregoire tell us: ''In those days, being close to an opponent’s ice surface could be dangerous. They threw everything. In one game, Corbeau got in an incident in a game in Ottawa, and the fans were tossing frozen turnips, carrots and empty bottles onto the ice!''

Also, as the ''Pig Iron'' was one of the biggest player of his generation, he was continuously speared, hooked and cheaply attacked by the smaller players who thought the big Corbeau wouldn't retaliate. They were not wrong, as Corbeau let those kind of behaviour flew for a certain time. However, during the 1918 season, after a particularly vicious game, Corbeau have had enough of these behaviour, and warned in the newspaper the ''bad man'' who were attacking him. The news said: Bert Corbeau, standing six feet in height, wearing a number 18 collar, a number 10 glove, and with a seven inch chest expansion, hereby serves notice through the Montreal Herald upon each and every ''bad man'' in the national hockey league that the aforesaid ''bad man'' have gotta quit kickin' Corbeau's dog aroun': ''I'm all cut with butt-ends, slashes, kicks and wallops.'' said Corbeau, as he plodded his weary homeward way after the Ottawa game saturday night, the while making a few experiments to discover whether or not a poke from xxx had left all his innards in their proper place. ''I'll say I have enough, and also plenty. I have lost a piece of toe, I'm bruised from the neck down; I've been hooked across the throat so hard that I can't swallow and walloped on the back of the neck so it's black and white, and look as if I stopped washing at the ears. These birds are taking advantage of my size. It looks like a game thing for a bantam to take a crack at a big fellow but if the big fellow hits back the crowds will call him a big rough-neck and a bum. Why, when Denneny clouted me over the head I didn't hit back - I only held him. The little fellow has all the best of it. But I should worry what the crowd say the next time anybody take a wallop at me, big or little, I'm going back at him.''

Before the 1920-21 season, Corbeau was supposed to quit the Canadiens to move to a new league, the CHA, a league that seems to have never materialized. Because of that, he stayed another two seasons with les Habitants, prior to joining the Hamilton Tigers for one complete season.

In 1923, he joined the Toronto St-Pats, a team he would play for in his last four seasons in the NHL. In 1927, Corbeau would play under coach Frank Selke with the Toronto Falcons of the Can-Pro. The next season, he would act as the general manager, head coach and veteran defenceman for the London Panthers: it would be his final season of professional hockey.

After announcing his retirement on November 6, 1929, Corbeau would be added to the NHL officiating staff. He would play the role of referee for the major part of the 1930's, for most of three seasons in the NHL, and then in the Ontario Hockey League and International Hockey League. Then, Corbeau returned to coaching with the Atlantic City Sea Gulls of the Eastern Hockey League from 1939 to 1942. Afterwards, Corbeau finally left hockey and returned to Penetanguishine, where he lived and worked as a plant superintendent at the Midland Foundry and Machine Company, supporting Canada in World War II.

Bert Corbeau's death:
Bert Corbeau died on September 21, 1942, in one of the most tragic off-ice death a hockey player ever suffered. Indeed, Corbeau, alongside 24 other passengers, drowned in the water of Georgian Bay, after a boating accident.

In 1938, Corbeau purchased an 87-foot steel vessel known as the Wawinet. Built in 1904 by the Polson Iron Company of Toronto, the propeller yacht was known as being somewhat ''tender'', her stability always a question. But Corbeau had been at her helm in several gales and was confident of the Wawinet’s ability to make her way in any weather.

After a successful work order was completed, Corbeau issued a memo for his men:
Quote:
You are invited to attend a stag party.

Aboard my boat on Monday Sept. 21 at 4 P.M.

For a buffet lunch and refreshments.

Come one and all.

Prizes Will be awarded to the best fishermen.

Plant Superintendent

B. Corbeau
Weather wasn’t an issue that first day of autumn, 1942. Making their way across the bay to Honey Harbour, the 41 men on board fished over the side while enjoying coolers filled with cold drinks. Stopping in at the Delawana Inn to refresh their supplies, the Wawinet turned west into the growing gloom of 22:00 o'clock, heading home to Penetang.

What happened next is still unknown. Some reports claim that the night was turning stormy with rain squalls racing across the bay. Other maintain it was calm, still, and relatively clear when the Wawinet run aground on a sand bar off Beausoleil Island. Some say today that a rogue wave struck the Wawinet while others, remembering Corbeau's sense of humour, believe that he was playing with the wheel, rocking the boat back and forth to the amusement of his passengers. It was also reported that the ballast had been removed from the Wawinet’s hull, making the vessel top heavy.

No matter. The Wawinet listed suddenly to one side. With the lower portholes open and under water, the yacht filled rapidly, slipping beneath the waves in less than two minutes. Forty-one men were in danger of losing their lives. In the dark, the confusion was all encompassing. Some men jumped off the side of the Wawinet, heading for the first land in sight, Present Island. Others managed to swim the half mile to Beausoleil Island, some using the few available life preservers, staggering onto shore, nearly hypothermic but alive.

Stewart Cheetham, who made his way to Present Island, later described his ordeal to a newspaper reporter. Cheetham recalled, ''I was on the boat when it suddenly swerved and soon started to sink. I jumped into the water and in the moonlight could see an island ahead of me. The water was much warmer than the air and was calm, so I knew I could make it if I took my time and I didn’t get excited. I finally reached the shore and then made my way to the end of the island where I knew there was a guard's cabin. I found it and woke him up and later he took me across to Beausoleil, where I joined the other sixteen. I did not see or hear any of the others from the time I started swimming.''

The survivors spent the night on the two islands, watching in the moonlight as the bodies of their co-workers drifted onto shore. When the Wawinet was noticed missing from her berth, the alarm was sounded as scores of tugs, pleasure boats, and fishing smacks set out to find the scene of the tragedy.

Seventeen men were found alive. Twenty-five, including Bert Corbeau, lost their lives that night. With most of the dead from Midland and Penetanguishene, the twin communities were devastated. What had just happened turned out to be the worst noncommercial disaster in the history of Georgian Bay.

There was, of course, an inquest. But the survivor’s memories were clouded with the suddenness of the accident or maybe, a surfeit of alcohol ingested that night. Since Corbeau had run the overcrowded Wawinet onto a sandbar in an area he knew well, his sobriety was questioned. Still, the results of the inquest proved inconclusive.


Corbeau's Famous Hockey Card:

Corbeau is a particular case in the world of cards collector.

Where the name of Bert Corbeau become interresting is from a hockey card collection of the 1923 William Paterson v145-1. This collection is considered the holy grail of all collection. Back in 1923, those cards were inserted in the ''Paterson hockey bar'' chocolat bar, sold by the Brantford company based in Ontario. Behind every packet you could read that the company would give a new pair of skates for every complete collection of 40 cards, so you had to at least buy 40 chocolat bars to complete the collection.

The company decided to distribute a limited edition of the #25, Bert Corbeau card to minimise the number of prizes that they would distribute. Also, every time the Bratford company would receive a complete collection, they would punched a hole in the Corbeau card to control the number of prizes they would give away.

In 2008, the Corbeau card, evaluated at over 20 000$, help skyrocked an auction at over 116 000$ US when the former Montreal Canadiens defenceman Jacques Lapperiere put his own complete collection on sale. It is estimated that the next collection that will be sold could go as high as 160 000$

Fun and Interesting Facts:

- Corbeau was the first player to play for both the original NHL Canadian teams: the montreal Canadiens and the Toronto Maple Leafs
- During the 1926-27 season, Corbeau became the first NHL player to reach the 100 Penalty minutes plateau in a single season


Signing, Trades & Injuries:

- On December 1, 1914, Corbeau was signed as a free agent by the Montreal Canadiens (NHA)
- On November 26, 1917, Corbeau's rights are retained by the Montreal Canadiens after the NHA folded (NHL)
- On December 21, 1918, he missed one game due to a family illness
- In 1919, in the first period of the third game of the Stanley Cup Final against the Seattle Metropolitans, Corbeau tried to bodycheck a Seattle player but went into him awkwardly and fell on the ice, suffering a sprained shoulder. He would not play for the rest of the game. Newspaper also stipulated that he was cut on the knee with a skate the same night
- On October 1, 1922, Corbeau was traded to the Hamilton Tigers by the Montreal Canadiens for cash (NHL)
- On December 14, 1923, Corbeau was traded to the Toronto St-Pats by the Hamilton Tigers with Amos Arbour and George Carey for xxx, the NHL rights to xxx and cash (NHL)
- On February 9, 1926, he missed one game due to cracked ribs
- On March 27, 1926, Corbeau was suspended by NHL for one game and fined $50 for match penalty received against the Montreal Maroons
- On October 20, 1927, he was signed as a free agent by the Toronto Ravina Falcons after clearing NHL waivers (Can-Pro)
- On May 1, 1928, he was traded by the Toronto Ravina Falcons to the London Panthers for $2,000 and was named the head-coach (Can-Pro)

Coaching:

As a coach, Bert Corbeau was known as a perfectionist. On September 11, 1929, after a 16-22-4 record in his only season with the London Panthers of the Can-Pro, Corbeau was fired. That year, he wore the dual hat of player and head-coach. From 1935 through 1942, Corbeau coached various team in the IOHA and the SOHA. Most notably, he coached the Atlantic City Seagulls of the EAHL for three season.


Miscellaneous:

- The dressing room got noisier once the other players showed up. They all seemed to like joking around: ''Big game tonight, Joe,'' Bert Corbeau said: ''You ready, old man?''
At thirty-six Joe Hall was one of the oldest players in hockey: ''Readier than you'll ever be,'' he said to Corbeau, his twenty-four-year-old defence partner.
''Hey Odie,'' Bert said: ''give us some dirt on your brother. What can we say to get him really riled up?''
''You don't want to get him riled,'' said Odie Cleghorn ''He gets better when he's angry.''
''Unlike you. You just get stupider!''

Abbreviation:
Can-Pro: Canadian Professional Hockey League
CHA: Canadian Hockey Association
EAHL: Eastern Amateur Hockey League
IHL: International Hockey League
IOHA: Intermediate Ontario Hockey Association
MPHL: Maritime Professional Hockey League
NHA: National Hockey Association
NHL: National Hockey League
OHL: Ontario Hockey League
QHL: Quebec Hockey League
SOHA: Senior Ontario Hockey Association
SSHL: Saskatchewan Senior Hockey League


Internet Sites:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=12328
http://www.sihrhockey.org/member_pla..._id=761&mode=0
http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2009...t-corbeau.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Corbeau
http://www.simcoe.com/sports/article...ife-chronicled
http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Bert-Corbeau
http://www.midlandfreepress.com/Arti...aspx?e=2838680
http://www.ticky-box.com/crashingthenet/?p=39
http://www.fanatique.ca/lnh/bert-cor...blie+3457.html
http://www.owensound.library.on.ca/page.php?PageID=120




Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-25-2011 at 09:25 AM.
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02-25-2011, 09:03 AM
  #53
papershoes
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EB - great bio! always love reading your bios and that was a beauty...

on a side note, isn't that a picture of joe hall?


Last edited by papershoes: 02-25-2011 at 09:20 AM.
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02-25-2011, 09:24 AM
  #54
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EB - great bio! always love reading your bios and that was a beauty...

on a side note, isn't that a picture of joe hall?
Thank You, I'm happy that someone takes the time to read them!

And upon further research, it is indeed a Joe Hall picture! I will change that. Unfortunately, I wanted a good quality picture of Corbeau in a Canadiens sweater, but I guess I'll have to change it to one where he wore a St-Pats Jersey and looks like a criminal!

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02-25-2011, 09:34 AM
  #55
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Bert Corbeau's death:
Bert Corbeau died on September 21, 1942, in one of the most tragic off-ice death a hockey player ever suffered. Indeed, Corbeau, alongside 24 other passengers, drowned in the water of Georgian Bay, after a boating accident.
It is horribly ironic just how poorly ice hockey players and water mixed back in the old days. Hod Stuart died in a diving accident. Babe Siebert and his daughter drowned, and Corbeau crashed his boat. Perhaps Poseidon was offended?

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02-25-2011, 09:41 AM
  #56
seventieslord
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Pat “Boxcar” Egan !!!


Awards and Achievements:
Second Team All-Star (1942)
All-Star (1949)

Missed the entire 1942-43 season while he was enlisted in the Military. (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...pat+egan&hl=en)

Scoring:
Points among Defensemen – 1st(1947), 1st(1949), 2nd(1944), 3rd(1942), 4th(1946), 6th(1948), 7th(1945)
Goals among Defensemen – 2nd(1944), 2nd(1946), 2nd(1947), 2nd(1948), 2nd(1949), 3rd(1942), 5th(1951), 7th(1945), 7th(1950), 8th(1940)
Assists among Defensemen – 1st(1947), 1st(1949), 2nd(1944), 3rd(1942), 5th(1946), 8th(1945)

From 1945 to 1949 Egan was 2nd in Points, 1st in Goals, and 2nd in AssistsFrom 1942 to 1951 Egan was 1st in Points, Goals, and Assists


Play-off Points among Defensemen – 2nd(1946), 3rd(1950)
Play-off Goals among Defensemen – 1st(1946), 1st(1950), 4th(1945), 4th(1948)
Play-off Assists among Defensemen – 5th(1947)

From 1945 to 1950 Egan was 2nd in Play-off Points and 1st in Play-off Goals


AHL Points among Defensemen – 5th(1940), 5th(1952), 10th(1953), 10th(1953)


Newspaper Clippings:
Looks like you got all the points finishes correct. He was also 10th in 1950 and 1951 if you're interested. (they were pretty statistically insignificant finishes, less than half of #2)

Should anyone care that he was 5th in playoff goals in 1948... with 1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post



Tommy Dunderdale !!!


Awards and Achievements:
3 x PCHA League Champion (1913, 1914, 1916)

6 x PCHA All-Star Team (1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1920, 1922)

Scoring:
Points – 1st(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 4th(1915), 4th(1918), 6th(1916), 6th(1922), 9th(1917), 9th(1921)
Goals – 1st(1913), 1st(1914), 1st(1920), 3rd(1912), 4th(1915), 4th(1916), 4th(1918), 6th(1917), 7th(1922), 10th(1921)
Assists – 2nd(1920), 3rd(1913), 3rd(1915), 4th(1914), 5th(1918), 5th(1921), 6th(1922)


Dunderdale played quite a bit of good hockey before joining the PCHA:
1907 – 8 goals in 10 games. I could find 2 players who outscored him (Tommy Phillips and Joe Hall).
1908 – 12 goals and 1 assist in 8 games. I couldn’t find anyone who outscored him.
1909 – 17 goals and 7 assists in 9 MHL games, I couldn’t find anyone who outscored him.
1910 – 7 goals in 3 CHA games. I could only find one person who outscored him (undrafted).

1910 – 11th in NHA goals. Led his team, who was terrible, in scoring.
1911 – 13 goals in 9 games. He missed half the season, but was on pace to place 4th in scoring.

Newspaper Clippings:
Good pick, one of the few best players available.

But, since I was extensively researching him just yesterday, I knew a lot of this was wrong as soon as I read it. A few things:

- I'm not going to dissect all the goals/assists finishes but if you're wrong on points you likely have those wrong as well. He was not 1st in 1914, he was 3rd.
- He was not 4th in 1915, he was 6th.
- He was not 6th in 1916, he was 11th.
- He was not 9th in 1917, he was 10th (with less than half of #2)
- He was not 4th in 1918, he was 5th.

Which makes his list of impressive pre-merger finishes: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6.

Next, he was not 11th in 1910 NHA scoring (which would not be significant anyway), he was in a 4-way tie for 13th.

Next, in 1911, he was on pace for 5th in scoring, not 4th.

In 1910 in the CHA it was actually two players who outscored him. (for all intents and purposes the CHA and NHA stats should just be combined for 1910)

In 1909, one player actually outscored him.

In 1908, Dunderdale was actually 8th in scoring (APHL). You didn't find anyone who outscored him yourself, but there were plenty.

In 1907, Dunderdale was 9th in scoring (MHL). there were many more than two who outscored him.

Overall, this might be the poorest statistical research I've ever seen on a player in the ATD. This was just sloppier than.... well, you know.

based on the way it appears you did your research on the stats (by checking hockey-reference.com for known players who played in these leagues in these seasons), you spent so much time that an SIHR membership would have paid for itself right away.

Lastly, (and this is not your fault at all), but that Shilling quote is the worst quote ever used to substantiate a player; it is my least favourite ever. This is the kind of thing an old-timer would say to you to tell you how someone that they personally saw, played. No one is enough of an old-timer to have seen Dunderdale play, and really, no one could have seen both Dunderdale and this modern comparison play. (actually, it's feasible that someone who was 15 in 1922 was 80 years old 65 years later as this modern player began to peak, but then this person wouldn't be writing hockey literature and blogging in 2000 and beyond) - It makes absolutely no sense how this person could have come to this conclusion, particularly because I know from personal experience, finding info on Dunderdale's style of play is practically impossible (good luck with that though, seriously)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I usually wait to take my 2nd line center, but they are getting pretty thin at this point. The fact that Dunderdale was a rover means that he can shuffle to the wing if I need him there.... but I doubt he'll end up there.
If I'm not mistaken, he was an all-star one year on the wing. So he's not a plausible winger just by virtue of being a rover (which is not something i necessarily agree with)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I wasn't intending that to sound like I was trying to oversell him.

I do agree that placing 10th in the PCHA isn't a great accomplishment, but it isn't meaningless. It's still a season where he produced at a reasonable level. Same with his MHL and CHA seasons - they don't really add to his peak, but they do add more seasons where he was able to produce at a decent level. Probably 5 of those 10 seasons would equate to a top-20 in today's NHL.
I would say he has 7 seasons that could equate to a top-20 in points season, before you adjust further for talent pool. If you assume that the talent pool was as strong as in the O6, where a 10th overall is like a 20th today, then even his 5th is pretty suspect too, but his four top-3 seasons are beyond reproach.

Quote:
I think you are under-rating his playmaking. He's certainly not a guy who can be a primary passer for a line, but he does have some ability. He does have 7 pretty decent playmaking seasons, 3 or 4 of them would translate into the equivelant of a top-10 in today's NHL.
No, you are definitely overrating his playmaking. For example, you had him 2nd in assists in 1920. he was actually 4th, and had half what the leader had. He was 6th in 1913, not 3rd. In 1915, you are right that he was 3rd, but he didnt have even half what the leader had. And I don't know where you got that he was 4th in 1914 - I have him 15th!

The 5th, 5th, 6th, you have listed at the end are 6th, 5th, 6th. The "true" 5th is his most statistically significant assists season, when he had 11 and the leader had 17. This is NOT a playmaking resume at all, and frankly, it's a joke that you'd try to say any of these years equate to a top-10.

Sturm is absolutely on the right track that he was a Nieuwendyk type offensively. Definitely a far better goalscorer than playmaker. Nieuwendyk was never top-20 in assists, and neither would Dunderdale be.

Quote:
I'd agree that Dunderdale doesn't have Nieuwendyk's play-off credentials, but he was a pretty decent scorer in the play-offs.
He has 4 points in 9 top-level playoff games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
What sort of statistical mind**** is this? You compare his PPGPG in playoffs with his GPG in regular season? Tkachuk's PPGPG in regular season is 0.18. His posteason PPG rate drops by a half, not 4/5ths (not that halving his production is a good thing). His PP drop is worse than his ES drop, though (0.26 to 0.22).
You beat me to it.

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Ya ya, I know some people don't like when GM's are posting their biographies in the draft thread, but when you spend around 12 hours on everyone of them, you like that more than 1 person (aka myself) read them!

----

What I've found on Corbeau:

- The guy was tough. One of the biggest and toughest of his generation. I won't comment further
Yes, probably. I'm not sure why you get to say he was like Cleghorn in that regard, though. Clegs is on a whole other level.

Quote:
- His offensive statistics speak for themselves. I'm not very good into crushing the numbers like 70's, but I'm sure he's going to comment on them extensively. For my part, I think they look pretty good, considering the competition. He never was an elite offensive defenceman ala Harry Cameron or Buck Boucher, but he was surprisingly constant. He might not have been a great goalscorer, as even with the constant results he never was close to the league leader, but I was surprise by his assist finish. I might have overrate him as a goalscorer, but underrated him as a passer.
His goals and assists finishes practically mirror eachother and his points finishes as well, just strengthening the case that you shouldn't bother with this statistical noise. Points finishes tell the story just fine.

I already went over the numbers. My estimation is a 370-point player if he played over the past dozen years. Decent.

I said we'd compare finishes after you were done. You have 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5. I have 3, 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6. So it looks like I have a 5, 6, 6, 6 that you have listed as 4, 5, 5, 5. IIt would be nice if you had the seasons listed for comparison but I'll see if we can uncover what went wrong and for whom:

It's possible that in 1920 you have a frequent position switcher as a forward. I have him as a defenseman that season. I have Corbeau 5th.

In 1921 I have him 6th and I have no idea who you got wrong there, there are 5 clear defensemen ahead. Did you miss Gerard?

In 1922 I have him 6th and I have no idea who you got wrong there, there are 5 clear defensemen ahead. Did you miss Gerard?

In 1923 I have him 5th. If you had him 4th, then you must have missed Gerard because Boucher, Cleghorn and Cameron are obvious.

In 1925 I have him 6th. You wouldn't have omitted Clancy, boucher or Cleghorn so I imagine you omitted that frequent position-switcher again, my info says he was a defenseman that season.

Quote:
- I was happy to read on multiple occasion that Corbeau was a speedy player. I was kind of surprise actually. You think a player of his magnitude would be a slow skater, but seems it was not the case. I didn't read extensive report on how fast he was, but considering everything I would say he was an above average skater, which for me is the biggest revelation on Corbeau.
Agree.

Quote:
- Defensively, I don't have much, other than two or three game reports were he was praised. But again, I didn't read one instance of Corbeau playing bad defensively. I would consider in adequate or average, whic is still far more than what most people thought he was.
I agree he was "adequate", but most players are "adequate", which still puts him below the curve at an ATD level. There was some info, but mostly in-game stuff. I'd have liked to have seen more.

I imagine a modern 15-year veteran with about 400 points, who is adequate defensively and very physical. Would this player be picked yet? I am thinking no. In fact, it's feasible that such a player would slip to the MLD.

I think he is a passable pick in the late 400s like he used to be, but have not been convinced that he deserved this jump into the top-320.

--------------------------

jeez, you guys must think I have a bee in my bonnet today. Maybe I do. I haven't slept much.

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02-25-2011, 09:46 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour
but I guess I'll have to change it to one where he wore a St-Pats Jersey and looks like a criminal!
That's not necessarily a bad thing that he looks like a criminal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It is horribly ironic just how poorly ice hockey players and water mixed back in the old days. Hod Stuart died in a diving accident. Babe Siebert and his daughter drowned, and Corbeau crashed his boat. Perhaps Poseidon was offended?
Makes sense, since hockey players made a habit of always putting themselves "above" the water.

In all seriousness though, yeah, it seems that even those three cases mean a disproportionately high number of hockey players drowned. Sprague Cleghorn almost did, too.

The hightlight of the bio for me was reading more about Corbeau's life; I knew nothing of it before.

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02-25-2011, 09:52 AM
  #58
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So Billy's time has expired, correct?

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02-25-2011, 09:57 AM
  #59
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So Billy's time has expired, correct?
You're already more than two hours into your clock, actually. We're on a six hour clock now.

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02-25-2011, 10:04 AM
  #60
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You're already more than two hours into your clock, actually. We're on a six hour clock now.
Alright, that's what I figured.

Just got back from an appointment, I'll pick within an hour.

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02-25-2011, 10:09 AM
  #61
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Yes, probably. I'm not sure why you get to say he was like Cleghorn in that regard, though. Clegs is on a whole other level.



His goals and assists finishes practically mirror eachother and his points finishes as well, just strengthening the case that you shouldn't bother with this statistical noise. Points finishes tell the story just fine.

I already went over the numbers. My estimation is a 370-point player if he played over the past dozen years. Decent.

I said we'd compare finishes after you were done. You have 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5. I have 3, 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6. So it looks like I have a 5, 6, 6, 6 that you have listed as 4, 5, 5, 5. IIt would be nice if you had the seasons listed for comparison but I'll see if we can uncover what went wrong and for whom:

It's possible that in 1920 you have a frequent position switcher as a forward. I have him as a defenseman that season. I have Corbeau 5th.

In 1921 I have him 6th and I have no idea who you got wrong there, there are 5 clear defensemen ahead. Did you miss Gerard?

In 1922 I have him 6th and I have no idea who you got wrong there, there are 5 clear defensemen ahead. Did you miss Gerard?

In 1923 I have him 5th. If you had him 4th, then you must have missed Gerard because Boucher, Cleghorn and Cameron are obvious.

In 1925 I have him 6th. You wouldn't have omitted Clancy, boucher or Cleghorn so I imagine you omitted that frequent position-switcher again, my info says he was a defenseman that season.

Agree.

I agree he was "adequate", but most players are "adequate", which still puts him below the curve at an ATD level. There was some info, but mostly in-game stuff. I'd have liked to have seen more.

I imagine a modern 15-year veteran with about 400 points, who is adequate defensively and very physical. Would this player be picked yet? I am thinking no. In fact, it's feasible that such a player would slip to the MLD.

I think he is a passable pick in the late 400s like he used to be, but have not been convinced that he deserved this jump into the top-320.
My god, you're really tough on Corbeau. We can disagree with his placement, but there's absolutely no way or shape or form in a 40 or 28 teams draft in any parallel universe that Bert Corbeau is a MLD player. Late 400's is way too low for Corbeau. I can agree that he should be taken somewhere in the 300's (I still think 320 is a valid placement)

- Corbeau was not merely a physical player, like you seem to imply, he was (after Cleghorn, whatever) the MOST intimidating and physical player of his era. He was more intimidating than Doug Harvey, Ferm Flaman and Zdeno Chara to name players on my team. It's very much underselling Corbeau to call him a mere physical player.

- I would like to get other inputs on Corbeau offensive credential. I disagree that his offensive abilities are a mere 'decent', I think he was better than you give him credit for. But again, I'm not very good at judging this, so I would love some other GM's to give their opinion on this.

- I've spent about two hours to be sure I've got every finish right, but I will look again (not tonight though, it's midnight). However, Eddie Gerard was always on my radar when I looked the stats, but we'll see.

- In the ATD, Corbeau is decent defensively. Average.

- I imagine a very constant, modern 15 years veteran who is good offensively, who is adequate defensively while being one of the biggest, most intimidating and physical player on the ice. He's also a good leader, being captain on two different hockey club. In retrospect, while not being a steal by any means, Corbeau should be select in the 300's, either it's #301 or #396, depending on one team's need. In that regard, I'm happy of the work I have done and the selection I have made.


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 02-25-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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02-25-2011, 10:21 AM
  #62
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At the risk of sounding like a dick, don't bother doing non-NHL pre-merger statistical research if you don't have an SIHR account. All you do is make more work for seventies or whoever else has to come in and correct you, and then you look like an idiot.

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02-25-2011, 10:24 AM
  #63
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For 5.00$ a player, I'll do the work for anyone . In all honesty, Jarek is kind of right, 30$ is not a lot considering the boatload of informations you get, not only from pre-merger era, but from European players also.

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02-25-2011, 10:37 AM
  #64
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30 dollars for a whole bloody year. I have 5-6 year old cousins who could afford that.

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02-25-2011, 10:43 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Lastly, (and this is not your fault at all), but that Shilling quote is the worst quote ever used to substantiate a player; it is my least favourite ever. This is the kind of thing an old-timer would say to you to tell you how someone that they personally saw, played. No one is enough of an old-timer to have seen Dunderdale play, and really, no one could have seen both Dunderdale and this modern comparison play. (actually, it's feasible that someone who was 15 in 1922 was 80 years old 65 years later as this modern player began to peak, but then this person wouldn't be writing hockey literature and blogging in 2000 and beyond) - It makes absolutely no sense how this person could have come to this conclusion, particularly because I know from personal experience, finding info on Dunderdale's style of play is practically impossible (good luck with that though, seriously)
I remember reading that Shilling quote years ago on Dunderdale. Shilling was doing adjusted historical stats, including adjusted penalty minutes. Dunderdale rated very highly on adjusted penalty minutes. I'm 99% sure that quote is just Shilling eyeballing Dunderdale's adjusted stats.

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02-25-2011, 10:57 AM
  #66
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My god, you're really tough on Corbeau. We can disagree with his placement, but there's absolutely no way or shape or form in a 40 or 28 teams draft in any parallel universe that Bert Corbeau is a MLD player. Late 400's is way too low for Corbeau. I can agree that he should be taken somewhere in the 300's (I still think 320 is a valid placement)

- Corbeau was not merely a physical player, like you seem to imply, he was (after Cleghorn, whatever) the MOST intimidating and physical player of his era. He was more intimidating than Doug Harvey, Ferm Flaman and Zdeno Chara to name players on my team. It's very much underselling Corbeau to call him a mere physical player.

- I would like to get other inputs on Corbeau offensive credential. I disagree that his offensive abilities are a mere 'decent', I think he was better than you give him credit for. But again, I'm not very good at judging this, so I would love some other GM's to give their opinion on this.

- I've spent about two hours to be sure I've got every finish right, but I will look again (not tonight though, it's midnight). However, Eddie Gerard was always on my radar when I looked the stats, but we'll see.

- In the ATD, Corbeau is decent defensively. Average.

- I imagine a very constant, modern 15 years veteran who is good offensively, who is adequate defensively while being one of the biggest, most intimidating and physical player on the ice. He's also a good leader, being captain on two different hockey club. In retrospect, while not being a steal by any means, Corbeau should be select in the 300's, either it's #301 or #396, depending on one team's need. In that regard, I'm happy of the work I have done and the selection I have made.
I'm not really that tough on Corbeau. You did a better job with him (much better, actually) than you did with the last two early defensemen you tried to pimp, and my reaction is commensurate to that.

Explain to us why we should be sold that he is the second-most intimidating player of his era after Cleghorn.

Here's the thing about his offense: it was all pre-merger, so if you're going just by scoring finishes you need to account for the fact that there were two, and sometimes three leagues. Using Sturm's simple formula (with an adjustment for the three-league seasons), here's what his scoring finishes look like:

5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 12, 18.

The sub-10th finishes can be thrown out, which leave you approximately with a resume similar to being 5th, 6th, and 7th at any time during the post-merger, pre-expansion era. Butch Bouchard's significant finishes are 3, 5, 7, slightly better, but in a weaker time. Do you consider Bouchard any sort of offensive threat in the ATD?

Anyway - finishes are only a rough estimate of what a player is capable of. As most know by now, I prefer the percentage method because it provides proper numerical relativity between results that appear to be otherwise close (like when the 4th place guy has less than half of 1st, for example)

Corbeau's points percentages of the leading defense scorer throughout his 13-year career are as follows: (I use 1st because it was pre-merger)

6, 41, 48, 59, 33, 81, 48, 29, 61, 61, 48, 56, 16.

If we pretend that his career was just the last 13 years and take these percentages as percentages of the modern #2 defense scorer, here's what it translates to:

4, 23, 27, 37, 23, 48, 32, 16, 37, 41, 31, 36, 11. Total: 367. that would put him 21st on this list of the top scorers from the blueline in the past 13 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

21st is decent, but you can also see not everyone on that list is an ATD player, even some who are "adequate" defensively.

Of course, the alternative to this sort of analysis is pretend that those rankings can translate into modern times on a 1:1 ratio and then he's got a handful of 45+ point seasons... but that would be sticking your head in the sand.

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02-25-2011, 11:01 AM
  #67
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I remember reading that Shilling quote years ago on Dunderdale. Shilling was doing adjusted historical stats, including adjusted penalty minutes. Dunderdale rated very highly on adjusted penalty minutes. I'm 99% sure that quote is just Shilling eyeballing Dunderdale's adjusted stats.
My thoughts exactly.

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02-25-2011, 11:03 AM
  #68
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Billy Shoe was skipped at 8:35 AM and Stoneberg is up. I'll PM him.

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02-25-2011, 11:18 AM
  #69
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Well, a couple guys slipped that I didn't expect to, which made this decision tougher to come to.

I'm going to go with a versatile forward who can be used as both a PP point-man and an excellent penalty killer. The Mooseheads are pleased to welcome RW, Bobby Rousseau.

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02-25-2011, 11:28 AM
  #70
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I'm not really that tough on Corbeau. You did a better job with him (much better, actually) than you did with the last two early defensemen you tried to pimp, and my reaction is commensurate to that.

Explain to us why we should be sold that he is the second-most intimidating player of his era after Cleghorn.

Here's the thing about his offense: it was all pre-merger, so if you're going just by scoring finishes you need to account for the fact that there were two, and sometimes three leagues. Using Sturm's simple formula (with an adjustment for the three-league seasons), here's what his scoring finishes look like:

5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 12, 18.

The sub-10th finishes can be thrown out, which leave you approximately with a resume similar to being 5th, 6th, and 7th at any time during the post-merger, pre-expansion era. Butch Bouchard's significant finishes are 3, 5, 7, slightly better, but in a weaker time. Do you consider Bouchard any sort of offensive threat in the ATD?

Anyway - finishes are only a rough estimate of what a player is capable of. As most know by now, I prefer the percentage method because it provides proper numerical relativity between results that appear to be otherwise close (like when the 4th place guy has less than half of 1st, for example)

Corbeau's points percentages of the leading defense scorer throughout his 13-year career are as follows: (I use 1st because it was pre-merger)

6, 41, 48, 59, 33, 81, 48, 29, 61, 61, 48, 56, 16.

If we pretend that his career was just the last 13 years and take these percentages as percentages of the modern #2 defense scorer, here's what it translates to:

4, 23, 27, 37, 23, 48, 32, 16, 37, 41, 31, 36, 11. Total: 367. that would put him 21st on this list of the top scorers from the blueline in the past 13 seasons:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

21st is decent, but you can also see not everyone on that list is an ATD player, even some who are "adequate" defensively.

Of course, the alternative to this sort of analysis is pretend that those rankings can translate into modern times on a 1:1 ratio and then he's got a handful of 45+ point seasons... but that would be sticking your head in the sand.
- Again, for the 100th time, I'm not trying to 'pimp' any of my selection. I'm trying to paint a clear and honest picture of what kind of players they were. With the research I've done, I tend to believe that Corbeau was a satisfying selection at this point in the draft. (Who were the other two D I tried to 'pimp'?)

- Corbeau was one of the biggest player of his generation. I don't care about adjusted size, but 6'0 - 200 pounds 90 years ago is quite astronomic. Every instance I've read on Corbeau, either in newspaper or in books talk about about big and strong and intimidating Corbeau was, from his NHA day all the way into his later years in Toronto. He had a presence on the ice, just like Chara or Pronger has in today's NHL. I mean, he could be 3rd or 4th most physical and intimidating player of his generation, but in all honesty I can't think of a single player except Sprague Cleghorn. Calling him a mere physical player don't hold justice to Corbeau.

- I understand where you're going with your numbers. I'm not sure if I can take those numbers at face value though. I feel it's underrating the oldtimers, but then again, I never been into those kind of statistical. I will recognize my limit with them. I also understand that Corbeau played during a split era. However, the only defenceman that was better offensively than Corbeau is Joe Simpson and two undrafted players. While most agree that the PCHA and the NHA were equal leagues in the 1910's, the NHL was quite a bit better than both the PCHA and the WCHL.

Just to clarify, as those statistics still confuse me a little bit, why are you taking the #2 scorer and not the #1, is it because Corbeau played in a split era? I would like you to explain in a couple of sentances how those stats works: 'Stats for dummies'!

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02-25-2011, 11:36 AM
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I'm here. I'll pick shortly. Don't use my list.

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02-25-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I' almost hoping someone select one of the two player I'm coveting, because I just can't make my mind!

Tommy Dunderdale is an excellent selection
Agreed. Dunderdale is the guy I was talking about way back when when I said there was a guy on the board I thought was more talented than Starshinov, but god help the GM who tries to build around him.

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02-25-2011, 11:48 AM
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Y

- Defensively, I don't have much, other than two or three game reports were he was praised. But again, I didn't read one instance of Corbeau playing bad defensively. I would consider in adequate or average, whic is still far more than what most people thought he was.
.[/SIZE]
I'm sorry, this is an example of giving older players too much due compared to modern players. If Corbeau was a plus defensive player, there would be things written about it, given the fact that sports reporters of his era were never shy about heaping praise on players.

It's just like Flash Hollett - there is no absolute proof he's bad defensively (though his points to all star record suggests it), but the absence of affirmative quotes about his defensive ability is deafening.

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02-25-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm sorry, this is an example of giving older players too much due compared to modern players. If Corbeau was a plus defensive player, there would be things written about it, given the fact that sports reporters of his era were never shy about heaping praise on players.

It's just like Flash Hollett - there is no absolute proof he's bad defensively (though his points to all star record suggests it), but the absence of affirmative quotes about his defensive ability is deafening.
The reporter of those time didn't shied away criticizing players too. I've got some instance of Corbeau being praise defensively, none that he played badly defensively. And average isn't a + or a - in my book. It is what it is: average.

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02-25-2011, 11:55 AM
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The reporter of those time didn't shied away criticizing players too. I've got some instance of Corbeau being praise defensively, none that he played badly defensively.
I'll be honest - I wrote that before reading/skimming your whole bio. Which I will do... after making my selection (to the relief of impatient GMs everywhere).

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