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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VI

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Old
02-26-2011, 12:40 PM
  #176
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
I considered him, among others, when I took Corbeau, but the guy was just too much injured to be confident having him on my Top-4. He definitely had extraordinary skills though.

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02-26-2011, 12:42 PM
  #177
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That justifies the almost 200 pick gap between them last year? (and 100 this year)

I understand the importance of St. Louis' lack of size and playing a glue role, but that and positional scarcity are reason why he should get picked behind Howe, not reasons why he should get picked several distinct tiers after. The underlying problem is that St. Louis is being underrated, I don't think most GMs consider Howe ahead of him because of size, they just didn't really even think he was in the same league.

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02-26-2011, 12:46 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I'm going to re-iterate the idea that you guys should stop posting bios in the draft thread, just post a link to them. The people that want to read them will read them anyways, and the people who wouldn't read them anyways will just be annoyed.
There was no need to re-iterate, if no one got the message when Nalyd pointed it out, then they don't really care if you jump on the bandwagon as well.

Anyone who took the time to make a bio has every right to show it off in this thread. Besides, it's more likely to be read that way.

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02-26-2011, 12:46 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
At the conclusion of this season, Henrik Sedin will almost certainly...
Irrelevant, projection.

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elite playmaking
Perhaps, even with him being the Lord of Secondary Assists.

Quote:
Don't discount his intangibles game either, he started his career as pretty soft, but he's become extremely hard to knock off the puck these days.
Overall in his career, his intangibles can barely be summed up as zero positive/negative value at best. For the larger part of his career, they've been negative.

Frankly, very little separates Sedin and a certain MLD center.

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Old
02-26-2011, 12:46 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
At the conclusion of this season, Henrik Sedin will almost certainly have another assists crown and another top-5 in points, as well as another top-5 Hart finish most likely and another season to add to his intangibles as well. Also, on top of his top-10 assists finishes, he also has a 13th in assists in 05-06, putting his overall resume (including this year) at 1, 1, 4, 4, 8, 13.

4 top-4s and 6 top-20s in assists is elite playmaking and he absolutely deserves to be in the top-250 to 300. Don't discount his intangibles game either, he started his career as pretty soft, but he's become extremely hard to knock off the puck these days. As long as you don't count on goal scoring from your 2nd line center, this guy is solid.
It's all projection, but I doubt Henrik will finish top 5 in Hart voting if finishes 2nd on his own team in points this season.

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02-26-2011, 12:47 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I'm going to re-iterate the idea that you guys should stop posting bios in the draft thread, just post a link to them. The people that want to read them will read them anyways, and the people who wouldn't read them anyways will just be annoyed.
Point taken, but with the time and effort and the 12+ hours each I take into building them, I don't feel a cent guilty about posting them twice, and will continue to do so (Sorry for anyone that his annoyed by them)

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02-26-2011, 12:49 PM
  #182
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There's no projection about it, Sedin would have to have a major collapse to not finish 1st in the league in assists right now.

Also, the kings of secondary assists? **** MadArcand, you have some mad blind hate for the guy and I can't figure out why.

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Old
02-26-2011, 12:51 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Irrelevant, projection.


Perhaps, even with him being the Lord of Secondary Assists.


Overall in his career, his intangibles can barely be summed up as zero positive/negative value at best. For the larger part of his career, they've been negative.

Frankly, very little separates Sedin and a certain MLD center.
Please PM me the name of this MLD center so I can shove Sedin's Art Ross and Hart up his ass.

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Old
02-26-2011, 12:52 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
That justifies the almost 200 pick gap between them last year? (and 100 this year)

I understand the importance of St. Louis' lack of size and playing a glue role, but that and positional scarcity are reason why he should get picked behind Howe, not reasons why he should get picked several distinct tiers after. The underlying problem is that St. Louis is being underrated, I don't think most GMs consider Howe ahead of him because of size, they just didn't really even think he was in the same league.
Probably not. I think the gap between them is probably a mixture of St. Louis adding so much to his resume in a short and recent time span (the past two years, which are really the two years that put him over the top to top-200 territory), and that, as mentioned, Syd Howe is overrated. (ya, he brings the glue and vesatility, but in reality I think a big part of it is how well-pimped he was by seventies a while back, which was quite a good percentage based on a offensive ranking system seventies himself doesn't really believe in anymore)

As for the Sedin debate, he looks quite a bit better looking as only assists as opposed to the whole package. His goalscoring is pretty awful(though notably better the past couple of seasons).


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 02-26-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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Old
02-26-2011, 12:57 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
There's no projection about it, Sedin would have to have a major collapse to not finish 1st in the league in assists right now.

Also, the kings of secondary assists? **** MadArcand, you have some mad blind hate for the guy and I can't figure out why.
Yeah, it became evident pretty early on that he doesn't really watch the Sedins regularly at all, and is more set on confirming his own biases than being reasonable. I don't agree with Henrik being a top 250 player either, I thought that was hyperbole on your part, but using the title Lord of Secondary Assists to degrade Henrik's game is just beyond laughable. MadArcand was the most vehemently opposed to Henrik's selection last year as well, he's still living in the cloud of ignorance that has plagued the Sedins for years.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:00 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post

As for the Sedin debate, he looks quite a bit better looking as only assists as opposed to the whole package. His goalscoring is pretty awful.
Bingo. No NHL GM or coach bases his evaluation of a player's offense on "assists." Very few writers do too, if you look at awards history. When they do look to stats, they look at points first, then goals a distant second.

The goals/assists ratio has remained constant since WW2, so I think points finishes should be our primary guide to evaluating a player's offensive contributions, so long as we keep in mind that "goals" are rarer than "assists."

Edit: I have never seen the phrase "assist title" used in reference to hockey, except on hfboards, usually the history and ATD sections.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:02 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Please PM me the name of this MLD center so I can shove Sedin's Art Ross and Hart up his ass.
I'm pretty sure I know who Mad is talking about and I definitely agree that Sedin surpassed him if not last year, then definitely this year.

But I don't think a player should be evaluated just based on trophies either.

I think it's pretty obvious that Sedin won the Hart last season because the writers were tired of giving Crosby (and Ovechkin) all the attention.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:06 PM
  #188
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Point taken, but with the time and effort and the 12+ hours each I take into building them, I don't feel a cent guilty about posting them twice, and will continue to do so (Sorry for anyone that his annoyed by them)
I dont mind Eagle's bio's. He puts a lot of time into these and enjoy reading them wherever there posted

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:09 PM
  #189
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I think there are better centers available compared to Sedin and I'll leave it at that.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:09 PM
  #190
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Adam Oates had 13 seasons of 19 or less goals and yet no one bats an eye at him getting selected 111th overall. GOALS had nothing to do with his selection, ASSISTS did! Henrik Sedin is Oates-lite in terms of playmaking.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:15 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Adam Oates had 13 seasons of 19 or less goals and yet no one bats an eye at him getting selected 111th overall. GOALS had nothing to do with his selection, ASSISTS did! Henrik Sedin is Oates-lite in terms of playmaking.
Probably has something to do with Oates being quite possibly a top-5 playmaker of all time....and those goals finishes are probably why said playmaker goes 111th instead of much higher. Sedin isn't anywhere close to Oates in playmaking.


Last edited by Leafs Forever: 02-26-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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Old
02-26-2011, 01:16 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm pretty sure I know who Mad is talking about and I definitely agree that Sedin surpassed him if not last year, then definitely this year.

But I don't think a player should be evaluated just based on trophies either.

I think it's pretty obvious that Sedin won the Hart last season because the writers were tired of giving Crosby (and Ovechkin) all the attention.
I disagree with that statement. The guy won the trophy. Simple as that. In ten years, will we look back and say that he won it because they wanted someone different? No. We'll say, oh, Henrik Sedin won it in 2010. If this was true, Lemieux would have more than 3 Harts. He would have won it it in 1992 over Messier if Messier wasn't in New York (big market). But we don't hold that against Messier at all, do we?

To be the third best player in the NHL isn't a bad title either though either way.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:17 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Adam Oates had 13 seasons of 19 or less goals and yet no one bats an eye at him getting selected 111th overall. GOALS had nothing to do with his selection, ASSISTS did! Henrik Sedin is Oates-lite in terms of playmaking.
Based on stats alone, I think Oates is always overrated based on the artificial separation of goals and assists. He always goes well ahead of Hawerchuck and Savard because of this, and I really think they are all in the same class.

But what gives Oates a rightful boost over the others is that he has shown a historical ability to elevate his teammates. Snipers like Brett Hull and Cam Neely had their best seasons by far when centered by Oates. And I don't think it's a coincidence. Based on stats alone, Oates is definitely overrated (like I said, no better than Hawerchuk and Savard who always get selected well behind him).

But Oates does have a very unique ability to elevate his linemates, even ATD-calibre scoring wingers. Sedin has not shown that ability, anymore than your typical excellent playmaking center.

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02-26-2011, 01:18 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Probably has something to do with Oates being quite possibly a top-5 playmaker of all time....and those goals finishes are probably why said playmaker goes 111th instead of much playmaker. Sedin isn't anywhere close to Oates in playmaking.
100% agree with this statement. I can't even make an attempt to pimp my selection in comparison to Oates.

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02-26-2011, 01:19 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Based on stats alone, I think Oates is always overrated based on the artificial separation of goals and assists. He always goes well ahead of Hawerchuck and Savard because of this, and I really think they are all in the same class.

But what gives Oates a rightful boost over the others is that he has shown a historical ability to elevate his teammates. Snipers like Brett Hull and Cam Neely had their best seasons by far when centered by Oates. And I don't think it's a coincidence. Based on stats alone, Oates is definitely overrated (like I said, no better than Hawerchuk and Savard who always get selected well behind him).

But Oates does have a very unique ability to elevate his linemates, even ATD-calibre scoring wingers. Sedin has not shown that ability, anymore than your typical excellent playmaking center.
How do we know that a certain guy playing on his line isn't being way elevated and having his best season due to Henrik?

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02-26-2011, 01:19 PM
  #196
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I disagree with that statement. The guy won the trophy. Simple as that. In ten years, will we look back and say that he won it because they wanted someone different? No. We'll say, oh, Henrik Sedin won it in 2010. If this was true, Lemieux would have more than 3 Harts. He would have won it it in 1992 over Messier if Messier wasn't in New York (big market). But we don't hold that against Messier at all, do we?

To be the third best player in the NHL isn't a bad title either though either way.
if we still are speaking about '54 Hart, why shouldn't somebody say that there were more deserving players to win it more than Henrik in 2010.

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02-26-2011, 01:19 PM
  #197
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Great Pick with Henrik Sedin. It was time for him to get drafted

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02-26-2011, 01:20 PM
  #198
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Also, the kings of secondary assists? **** MadArcand, you have some mad blind hate for the guy and I can't figure out why.
I don't hate him. I don't care one way or the other about him, actually. Besides, I try not to let my bias affect my evaluation of players. I may very much dislike Crosby or Jagr or Mario, but you don't see me attacking them, do you? It has nothing to with 'mad blind hate'.

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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
Yeah, it became evident pretty early on that he doesn't really watch the Sedins regularly at all, and is more set on confirming his own biases than being reasonable. I don't agree with Henrik being a top 250 player either, I thought that was hyperbole on your part, but using the title Lord of Secondary Assists to degrade Henrik's game is just beyond laughable. MadArcand was the most vehemently opposed to Henrik's selection last year as well, he's still living in the cloud of ignorance that has plagued the Sedins for years.
Right. And you, being a Canucks fan, are being totally impartial.

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Please PM me the name of this MLD center so I can shove Sedin's Art Ross and Hart up his ass.
Which is exactly what separates them. They're otherwise very similar in accomplishments and also as types of player.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm pretty sure I know who Mad is talking about and I definitely agree that Sedin surpassed him if not last year, then definitely this year.
Oh I think Sedin is better, but the similarities are just bloody obvious.

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I think it's pretty obvious that Sedin won the Hart last season because the writers were tired of giving Crosby (and Ovechkin) all the attention.
Very much agreed.

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Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Adam Oates had 13 seasons of 19 or less goals and yet no one bats an eye at him getting selected 111th overall. GOALS had nothing to do with his selection, ASSISTS did! Henrik Sedin is Oates-lite in terms of playmaking.
Yeah but Oates has three times the resume. Let's not project where Sedin might end up in ten years.

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Old
02-26-2011, 01:21 PM
  #199
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Oates has one more 1st and 2nd assist finishes than Sedin has top 10 finishes even if you count this current year.

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02-26-2011, 01:22 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I disagree with that statement. The guy won the trophy. Simple as that. In ten years, will we look back and say that he won it because they wanted someone different? No. We'll say, oh, Henrik Sedin won it in 2010.
[/QUOTE]

In ten years, most of us will still remember that Crosby was only a few points behind Sedin, while scoring far more goals. That Crosby played a better-rounded game (taking far more defensive zone draws than Sedin for example). And that Crosby put up his points with less help.

On the other hand, we'll remember that Sedin actually increased his scoring pace and carried the team during his linemate's injury.

Anyway, this is a can of worms I don't want to get into, but many of us are skeptical of past Hart Trophies, especially in the 1950s when some of the results are just wacky.

Quote:
If this was true, Lemieux would have more than 3 Harts. He would have won it it in 1992 over Messier if Messier wasn't in New York (big market). But we don't hold that against Messier at all, do we?
Messier's 1992 Hart was near-unanimous, so it's a bad example. He also made a huge impact on the standings for the Rangers. Lemieux was obviously the better player (when healthy), but I can certainly see the case for Messier being more valuable.

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To be the third best player in the NHL isn't a bad title either though either way.
Of course not.

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