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Old
02-25-2011, 12:11 AM
  #1
phaneuffan
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leafs-panthers

Toronto:
Stephen Weiss

Florida: Bos 1st, Tor 2nd, Jerry D'Amigo




whatcha think?

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Old
02-25-2011, 12:12 AM
  #2
Gardiner Express
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no way from toronto

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02-25-2011, 12:13 AM
  #3
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I wouldn't give that for a guy who's put up Matt Stajan like numbers in his career. He's a second line centre.

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02-25-2011, 12:14 AM
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LeafsandSharksfan
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I like Weiss but I'd honestly rather keep the picks

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02-25-2011, 12:23 AM
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Leafs87
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LMAO in what world?

Did you see what you got for Frolik? a younger player with a higher ceiling.

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02-25-2011, 12:57 AM
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Erick
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
LMAO in what world?

Did you see what you got for Frolik? a younger player with a higher ceiling.
Weiss is a better player than Frolik. Weiss has a great contract. Weiss is worth a lot more than Frolik.

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02-25-2011, 12:59 AM
  #7
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I don't think Weiss is what the Leafs should be after, and this seems like a bit much for him

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02-25-2011, 12:59 AM
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no way from toronto
What?

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02-25-2011, 01:01 AM
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MoreMogilny
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Not really keen on going after Weiss.

He is a halfway solution for the Leafs, and while they need a center, assets would be better spent going after someone that can fill that top line role.

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02-25-2011, 01:05 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
What?
Weiss has passed 50 points twice. He's nothing special.

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02-25-2011, 01:05 AM
  #11
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This is a bad short term solution for Toronto IMO. The value isn't horrible, but Toronto needs a better center than this.

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02-25-2011, 01:08 AM
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JeffMangum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Weiss has passed 50 points twice. He's nothing special.
He put up nearly 30 goals last year with quite possibly the worst forward lineup in hockey. He's speedy, he's smart, he's got a FANTASTIC cap hit, he's solid defensively, and he's a great leader. A late 1st, a 2nd, and a "meh" prospect for an excellent 1B center is an absolute steal for Toronto.

I also notice you never post more than one or two simple sentences, yet you somehow have over 10000 posts. Explain to me what makes Weiss not worth this package, in detail. I look forward to your response. It doesn't matter anyway, because Tallon would hang up on Burke if he offered this.

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02-25-2011, 01:09 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
He put up nearly 30 goals last year with quite possibly the worst forward lineup in hockey. He's speedy, he's smart, he's got a FANTASTIC cap hit, he's solid defensively, and he's a great leader. A late 1st, a 2nd, and a "meh" prospect for an excellent 1B center is an absolute steal for Toronto.

I also notice you never post more than one or two simple sentences, yet you somehow have over 10000 posts. Explain to me what makes Weiss not worth this package, in detail. I look forward to your response. It doesn't matter anyway, because Tallon would hang up on Burke if he offered this.
Production. Doesn't take paragraphs to explain that.

Grabovski is on pace to best Weiss' career high this year.

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02-25-2011, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Production. Doesn't take paragraphs to explain that.

Grabovski is on pace to best Weiss' career high this year.
Yeah, it does. Weiss would immediately become Toronto's best center. I know Grabovski is having a nice year and all, but Weiss brings more in a regular game than Grabovski, who is far from proven. Give Weiss some real linemates and he'll put up much better numbers. The guy is playing with Jack Skille and a concussed Booth. He's all on his own, here.

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02-25-2011, 01:18 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
Yeah, it does. Weiss would immediately become Toronto's best center. I know Grabovski is having a nice year and all, but Weiss brings more in a regular game than Grabovski, who is far from proven. Give Weiss some real linemates and he'll put up much better numbers. The guy is playing with Jack Skille and a concussed Booth. He's all on his own, here.
He's been in the league 8 years. The guy is a max. 60 point centre. He's clearly not a first line centre.

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02-25-2011, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
Yeah, it does. Weiss would immediately become Toronto's best center. I know Grabovski is having a nice year and all, but Weiss brings more in a regular game than Grabovski, who is far from proven. Give Weiss some real linemates and he'll put up much better numbers. The guy is playing with Jack Skille and a concussed Booth. He's all on his own, here.
I was agreeing with you up until the stupid "concused" comment you made regarding Booth. He's our leading scorer after coming off a horrible injured season and he's still producing and yet you say Weiss is all alone??? What hockey are you watching?

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02-25-2011, 01:24 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by TMLsince95 View Post
no way from toronto
lol wut?

no way from FLA a late 1st, decent 2nd and a decent prospect doesnt do much in replacing a productive center who will probably be the panthers captain if they hold on to him and its not like the panthers have to move him, they arent full of productive forawrds causing weiss to be expendable

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02-25-2011, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
He put up nearly 30 goals last year with quite possibly the worst forward lineup in hockey. He's speedy, he's smart, he's got a FANTASTIC cap hit, he's solid defensively, and he's a great leader. A late 1st, a 2nd, and a "meh" prospect for an excellent 1B center is an absolute steal for Toronto.

I also notice you never post more than one or two simple sentences, yet you somehow have over 10000 posts. Explain to me what makes Weiss not worth this package, in detail. I look forward to your response. It doesn't matter anyway, because Tallon would hang up on Burke if he offered this.
anyone else find this a bit ironic ?

Grabo is the perfect 2nd line C. Neither Weiss or Grabo are true 1C. With Kadri and Colborne in the pipeline leafs would be smart to just be patient and wait it out.

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02-25-2011, 01:26 AM
  #19
JeffMangum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper
He's been in the league 8 years. The guy is a max. 60 point centre. He's clearly not a first line centre.
I never said he was a 1st line center. He's an excellent 1B center. He's not a true 1st liner, but he can fill in if needed, and he's been Florida's 1st line center for the past 3-4 years, getting way too much ice time and responsibilities. He's Plekanec-lite. A ~60 point center (with potential for more) who is great defensively, a good leader, and brings a ton of intangibles game in and game out. Not to mention the bargain 3.1m cap hit. As already said, he plays with Jack Skille and a concussed David Booth. He's the focal point of Florida's offense, and he's not the type of player that can carry an offense. He's still a very good player, and would fit in nicely in Toronto. He's a good passer, has good hands, and can keep up with Kessel in terms of skating ability. But it's clear you've never watched him play, and only look at the stats sheet. Per usual with you, adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Florida could easily get more anyway. Actual managers around the league know how valuable Weiss is and how good of a player he can be given the right ice time and linemates. He would make the Leafs forward lines pretty damn respectable:

FA-Weiss-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin

That's a playoff team's top 6. But I guess you'd rather keep you low 1st, 2nd, and okay prospect. Fine by me.

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02-25-2011, 01:28 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
I was agreeing with you up until the stupid "concused" comment you made regarding Booth. He's our leading scorer after coming off a horrible injured season and he's still producing and yet you say Weiss is all alone??? What hockey are you watching?
I love Booth. One of my favorite players in the league. But he still hasn't *fully* recovered. He's still a great player when fully healthy.

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02-25-2011, 01:35 AM
  #21
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I would do it.

I see the "He's not a #1 Centre" and o.k that's fine. But I don't think it would be so bad if his upside is to be a good 2nd line Centre like Grabovski is. I don't think you need to absolutely have an elite #1 Centre in order to be a great hockey team. Teams have competed without one.

It's about balance. Having two consistent lines can still go a long way. He's on a good deal as well, and in two years time we can decide if this is the direction we want to continue to go.

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02-25-2011, 01:55 AM
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MoreMogilny
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
I never said he was a 1st line center. He's an excellent 1B center. He's not a true 1st liner, but he can fill in if needed, and he's been Florida's 1st line center for the past 3-4 years, getting way too much ice time and responsibilities. He's Plekanec-lite. A ~60 point center (with potential for more) who is great defensively, a good leader, and brings a ton of intangibles game in and game out. Not to mention the bargain 3.1m cap hit. As already said, he plays with Jack Skille and a concussed David Booth. He's the focal point of Florida's offense, and he's not the type of player that can carry an offense. He's still a very good player, and would fit in nicely in Toronto. He's a good passer, has good hands, and can keep up with Kessel in terms of skating ability. But it's clear you've never watched him play, and only look at the stats sheet. Per usual with you, adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Florida could easily get more anyway. Actual managers around the league know how valuable Weiss is and how good of a player he can be given the right ice time and linemates. He would make the Leafs forward lines pretty damn respectable:

FA-Weiss-Kessel
MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin

That's a playoff team's top 6. But I guess you'd rather keep you low 1st, 2nd, and okay prospect. Fine by me.
There is an ongoing discussion of this in the Leafs forum, and if you seek detail, you can search my posts in that thread, but I'm going to keep it a bit simpler here (maybe).

Weiss is a really good player, and I would never dispute that, but he isn't exactly what the Leafs should be looking for. Based on the bolded, Weiss isn't the type of player the Leafs need to spend assets to pursue. They already have a great second line center in Grabovski, as well as Bozak who would be terrific in a third line role. The objective for the Leafs shouldn't be a guy that isn't a true top line center, even if he is capable of filling such a role if needed.

As you mentioned, there are many things that make Weiss an attractive commodity to many teams, but for a rebuilding team thats most profound need is a bonafide top line center, Weiss and Toronto don't exactly fit. There is no doubt in my mind that Weiss would step in and make the Leafs a better team, but to what degree? He is never going to be the guy that can put a team on his back come playoff time, and with a team like the Leafs, that is a pretty big need.

I think teams more suited to pick up someone like Weiss would be playoff bound teams that already have solid top line centers, and are looking for a guy that can really bolster a second line. Teams like Washington, and perhaps L.A come to mind. Unless the aim is to merely make the playoffs in a 6-8 position, then the acquisition of Weiss doesn't altogether appeal to me.

I think the Leafs are better off using assets (and more of them) to attempt to acquire someone that is capable of centering a top line on a team that has a shot at the cup. I'm not saying this is an easy task, because teams certainly aren't lining up to give the Leafs a top line center, but i would rather the Leafs "Go big, or go home" so to speak. Toronto certainly isn't blessed with assets coming out the wazoo, but i think they have the capability to put together a solid package in attempt to bring in someone more suitable for the job.

Again, the Leafs would be lucky to have a guy like Weiss. He is most definitely a gigantic upgrade to Bozak on Kessel's line, but when all is said and done, he isn't going to be enough of a difference maker to suddenly make the Leafs a formidable team. Let's face it, the Leafs aren't exactly close to being a threat in the East, and it will take quite the significant piece to make them any more than pretenders.

Edit: I should also note that the package offered from the OP really wouldn't be enough to get the deal done. It would take both 1sts the Leafs have, and perhaps even more.

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02-25-2011, 02:03 AM
  #23
Erick
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Weiss hasn't even played most of this year with Booth. He's had a lot more nights being paired with Higgins/Stillman on the LW on his line. With Frolik (who apparently forgot how to play hockey this year) and Jack Skille (4th liner in Chicago) as the main RW's.

So yeah, he's played with nobody.

The one time he got to play with a real player was with Horton on Horton's career year last year, and he put up good #'s.

Kessel is a better player than any player Weiss has ever had the chance to play with in the NHL, and it's not even close.

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02-25-2011, 02:10 AM
  #24
JeffMangum
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There is an ongoing discussion of this in the Leafs forum, and if you seek detail, you can search my posts in that thread, but I'm going to keep it a bit simpler here (maybe).
I might take it upon myself to do that, considering you're 1 out of maybe 5 Leaf posts that is accurate in pretty much every post.

Quote:
Weiss is a really good player, and I would never dispute that, but he isn't exactly what the Leafs should be looking for. Based on the bolded, Weiss isn't the type of player the Leafs need to spend assets to pursue. They already have a great second line center in Grabovski, as well as Bozak who would be terrific in a third line role. The objective for the Leafs shouldn't be a guy that isn't a true top line center, even if he is capable of filling such a role if needed.
He's not mean to carry an offense, like he is in Florida. But with players like Kessel, Kulemin, Macarthur, he could shine, because he actually would get some very good wingers in those players. A center depth of Weiss-Grabovski-Bozak would b real solid for a long time, considering the average age of those players is about 26. They're also all very cheap in terms of cap hits, with Weiss being the highest at 3.1, which is an incredible bargain.

Quote:
As you mentioned, there are many things that make Weiss an attractive commodity to many teams, but for a rebuilding team thats most profound need is a bonafide top line center, Weiss and Toronto don't exactly fit. There is no doubt in my mind that Weiss would step in and make the Leafs a better team, but to what degree? He is never going to be the guy that can put a team on his back come playoff time, and with a team like the Leafs, that is a pretty big need.
I don't know, if the Leafs *did* get Weiss without giving up any significant roster players, and if they could add a top-6 winger in the offseason, they'd have a pretty good top-6, with offense distributed up and down the lineup. Good enough as to where Weiss doesn't need to put the team on his back, like in Florida. Also, he's a great leader, so he would help the Leafs in terms of off-the-ice demeanor as well. He's got a great attitude.

Quote:
I think teams more suited to pick up someone like Weiss would be playoff bound teams that already have solid top line centers, and are looking for a guy that can really bolster a second line. Teams like Washington, and perhaps L.A come to mind. Unless the aim is to merely make the playoffs in a 6-8 position, then the acquisition of Weiss doesn't altogether appeal to me.
I agree fully. All I'm saying is that this is a heckuva deal for the Leafs when you break it down. A 25-u pick, a 35-50 pick, and the Leafs' 11th ranked prospect for a very, very good center in Weiss. That would easily be topped by teams like Washington, Chicago, Montreal, etc. (Not LA. Lombardi loves all of his prospects too much)

Quote:
I think the Leafs are better off using assets (and more of them) to attempt to acquire someone that is capable of centering a top line on a team that has a shot at the cup. I'm not saying this is an easy task, because teams certainly aren't lining up to give the Leafs a top line center, but i would rather the Leafs "Go big, or go home" so to speak. Toronto certainly isn't blessed with assets coming out the wazoo, but i think they have the capability to put together a solid package in attempt to bring in someone more suitable for the job.
But who is out there that the Leafs could acquire? And anoter questions is, do the Leafs have the assets to acquire a *true* first line center? I don't know if they have the assets they'd be willing to give up. This package ain't getting you anything close to a top line center. Which is why I think adding a player who helps distribute the offense, and wouldn't cost that of an elite center to acquire, would be a smart thing to do. He still has some upside left in his game, he's only 27.

Quote:
Again, the Leafs would be lucky to have a guy like Weiss. He is most definitely a gigantic upgrade to Bozak on Kessel's line, but when all is said and done, he isn't going to be enough of a difference maker to suddenly make the Leafs a formidable team. Let's face it, the Leafs aren't exactly close to being a threat in the East, and it will take quite the significant piece to make them any more than pretenders.
He'd make the Leafs a solid team, though. He'd help make them a yearly 5-8 contender. And, in a few years, you could trade Weiss+ to acquire that top line center if you don't already have one by then(which would be a bit of a problem tbh. )


Quote:
Edit: I should also note that the package offered from the OP really wouldn't be enough to get the deal done. It would take both 1sts the Leafs have, and perhaps even more.
Yeah, pretty much.

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Old
02-25-2011, 02:15 AM
  #25
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If you go by Burke's mindset, there is no chance he goes after Weiss.

He's consistently said that he won't try to spend assets just to get his ass kicked in the first round of the playoffs. Clearly, Weiss doesn't guarantee any more than that.

While Weiss would definetly increase our chances into the playoffs massively, he isn't ideal. Burke should be pursuing Statsny (if he IS available), or Richards. These two centres are much more complete, regardless of cap hit. They also help you build a better hockey team over the long run, as Statsny especially, is young and still improving.

Unless Weiss comes as cheap or cheaper than the OP suggested, there isn't a chance Weiss is on this club by Monday.

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