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Weiss could go to the Leafs per Mckenzie

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Old
02-26-2011, 02:55 PM
  #176
Liferleafer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to your bottom statement:

you say the last thing the Leafs need is another undersized center.....

but isnt that what Nazem Kadri is? kid is barely 6 feet and 160 lbs soaking wet!

he isnt some strapping physical two way force that you guys have been looking for. he has size and strength concerns as well, so how is Weiss a proven NHLer a risk, but an unproven kid with size issues like Kadri not an issue? not really directing this at you, but just to anyone in general as what I keep hearing is you dont want a smaller center and then say you dont want to part with Kadri.....isnt that a contradiction??

Kadri is a smaller center and will have concerns over his size until/if he grows and puts on some weight.
you are missing the point, if there size is similar, why would we deal a 19 yr old with big upside for a 28 yr old who has proven to be at best a 60PT 2nd center, thats not even lateral, its a downgrade.

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02-26-2011, 02:55 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to your bottom statement:

you say the last thing the Leafs need is another undersized center.....

but isnt that what Nazem Kadri is? kid is barely 6 feet and 160 lbs soaking wet!

he isnt some strapping physical two way force that you guys have been looking for. he has size and strength concerns as well, so how is Weiss a proven NHLer a risk, but an unproven kid with size issues like Kadri not an issue? not really directing this at you, but just to anyone in general as what I keep hearing is you dont want a smaller center and then say you dont want to part with Kadri.....isnt that a contradiction??

Kadri is a smaller center and will have concerns over his size until/if he grows and puts on some weight.
Kadri is 6-6'1 185-190 lbs. It's not really that much of a concern considering he can fill out and is only 20 years old. A lot of young players have filling to do, some more than the others. Kadri is a small player right now because he hasn't filled out, by the time he does, he will be 195-200 lbs which is average.

Kadri isn't a 2-way player but he sure as hell is physical. At times, he does dirty/borderline hits.

And uhh, I don't really care how small Weiss is, I believe both Richards are roughly the same height and weight as Weiss but all Leafs care about is getting a legit #1 center and that is not Weiss.

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02-26-2011, 02:57 PM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to your bottom statement:

you say the last thing the Leafs need is another undersized center.....

but isnt that what Nazem Kadri is? kid is barely 6 feet and 160 lbs soaking wet!

he isnt some strapping physical two way force that you guys have been looking for. he has size and strength concerns as well, so how is Weiss a proven NHLer a risk, but an unproven kid with size issues like Kadri not an issue? not really directing this at you, but just to anyone in general as what I keep hearing is you dont want a smaller center and then say you dont want to part with Kadri.....isnt that a contradiction??

Kadri is a smaller center and will have concerns over his size until/if he grows and puts on some weight.
the difference is we already have kadri

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02-26-2011, 02:58 PM
  #179
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It's truly amazing how this debate has stretched onto 7 pages now...

-Should the Leafs want Weiss? Absolutely. Any Leaf fan who suggests otherwise is out to lunch.

- Is Weiss the perfect solution for Toronto? Absolutely not. He's a stopgap that reduces the urgency to trade for a better centre, and gives us options going forward.

-Should the Leafs be willing to trade Kadri for Weiss? Absolutely not (and I'm not even a Kadri fan). Any Panther fan who suggests otherwise really has no clue about Toronto's team going forward.

-Is Kadri likely to be a better player than Stephen Weiss? no. The key difference for Toronto is that he has the potential to be much better, while we hold 7 years of rights on him.

-Are the Leafs in a position to put in the best offer for Weiss? Maybe. There are teams like Washington and Chicago who would problably be willing to give up more.

-Should the Panthers trade Weiss at the deadline? Yes if he's not part of the long term plan, no if he is part of the long term plan.

This whole thread should be discussing those last 2 points, and really nothing more. If Stephen Weiss isn't in the long term plans, then his value is whatever one team is most willing to give up. Toronto isn't going to trade Kadri or both firsts, with the maximum offer being something like a 2011 1st + d'Amigo + Philly's 3rd. Should the Panthers trade him for that? Well that depends on what they can get elsewhere.

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02-26-2011, 02:58 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
here's the reason the Leafs aren't thrilled to get Weiss for an "unproven" Kadri. Because Weiss is proven to be a 2nd line center at best. Grabo's #'s this year are better and according to these boards, he's trash. Most sane folks project Kadri at worst to put up 60PT seasons. So...no thanks.
to those sane folks you are talking about:

how many young centers (22 and under) are putting up 60 points in a season?

how many years will it take Kadri to even get to that point?

so what it seems to me is that it could take Kadri a realistic 3-4 years before he becomes a 60 point player, but during that time you could land a Stephen Weiss who could be producing those numbers (or close to it) for you right now, but thats not worth it?? pretty risky imo.

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02-26-2011, 02:58 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to your bottom statement:

you say the last thing the Leafs need is another undersized center.....

but isnt that what Nazem Kadri is? kid is barely 6 feet and 160 lbs soaking wet!

he isnt some strapping physical two way force that you guys have been looking for. he has size and strength concerns as well, so how is Weiss a proven NHLer a risk, but an unproven kid with size issues like Kadri not an issue? not really directing this at you, but just to anyone in general as what I keep hearing is you dont want a smaller center and then say you dont want to part with Kadri.....isnt that a contradiction??

Kadri is a smaller center and will have concerns over his size until/if he grows and puts on some weight.
Why do you even care? I'd wager few teams in the league would offer up their top prospect for Weiss. The guy is probably a second line center on a good team. The Leafs are hoping Kadri can develop into more than that... I don't see why that is hard to accept.

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02-26-2011, 02:59 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to those sane folks you are talking about:

how many young centers (22 and under) are putting up 60 points in a season?

how many years will it take Kadri to even get to that point?

so what it seems to me is that it could take Kadri a realistic 3-4 years before he becomes a 60 point player, but during that time you could land a Stephen Weiss who could be producing those numbers (or close to it) for you right now, but thats not worth it?? pretty risky imo.
are you implying weiss is the only option the leafs have for a centre?

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02-26-2011, 03:02 PM
  #183
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Zero chance Florida gets Kadri for Weiss.

First pick of Burke, has big upside, he isn't going for a player like Weiss.

I could see/hope that we could acquire Colborne, but since the Leafs just acquired him, don't see that realistically happening either.

Don't see the point of Bozak, might as well just keep Weiss then.

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02-26-2011, 03:02 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
Kadri is 6-6'1 185-190 lbs. It's not really that much of a concern considering he can fill out and is only 20 years old. A lot of young players have filling to do, some more than the others. Kadri is a small player right now because he hasn't filled out, by the time he does, he will be 195-200 lbs which is average.

Kadri isn't a 2-way player but he sure as hell is physical. At times, he does dirty/borderline hits.

And uhh, I don't really care how small Weiss is, I believe both Richards are roughly the same height and weight as Weiss but all Leafs care about is getting a legit #1 center and that is not Weiss.
there is simply no way Kadri is 6'1 or 190lbs.....I just saw the kid the other night and a week ago doing an interview, no way. If I am wrong then I will apologize, but Kadri is not close to that.

as for the Leafs getting a LEGIT #1 center, please tell me who that is, because I doubt any LEGIT #1 center will come there willingly. I dont say that out of disrespect, but I just dont think you will have a Brad Richards go " I want to go play in Toronto". It just hasnt happened in a long time for you guys, and that will continue until you trade for someone like a Weiss. Weiss may not be a legit #1 center, but he is better then what you have imo.

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02-26-2011, 03:03 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to those sane folks you are talking about:

how many young centers (22 and under) are putting up 60 points in a season?

how many years will it take Kadri to even get to that point?

so what it seems to me is that it could take Kadri a realistic 3-4 years before he becomes a 60 point player, but during that time you could land a Stephen Weiss who could be producing those numbers (or close to it) for you right now, but thats not worth it?? pretty risky imo.
The Leafs have the youngest team in hockey. There's no rush.

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02-26-2011, 03:03 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
to those sane folks you are talking about:

how many young centers (22 and under) are putting up 60 points in a season?

how many years will it take Kadri to even get to that point?

so what it seems to me is that it could take Kadri a realistic 3-4 years before he becomes a 60 point player, but during that time you could land a Stephen Weiss who could be producing those numbers (or close to it) for you right now, but thats not worth it?? pretty risky imo.
So now that the leafs are willing to build from within, it's a bad move. Ya...i'll wait for my prospect instead of filling a gap with a 28yr old 2nd line center whos best year was 60. How about we trade you Grabo (who has 4 more points and is a +8 not a -10) for your best prospect. Seems fair huh.

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02-26-2011, 03:05 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by vezna View Post
are you implying weiss is the only option the leafs have for a centre?
um, who else is out there that you guys have any real shot at getting?

Stastny? If you arent willing to pay for Weiss, I cant imagine what Stastny would cost you guys; Kadri and a 1st for sure.

Toronto isnt in a position to land any legit center through free agency as players "snub" Toronto, the only way is through trade, and imo Weiss is the best you have a realistic chance at.

Throw me some names out there as to who would be a #1 center that you have a legit shot at getting? Brad Richards would be too high imo, and all that would be left is maybe a Tim Connolly, but he has his own issues and hasnt really played a consistent #1 center.

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02-26-2011, 03:05 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
there is simply no way Kadri is 6'1 or 190lbs.....I just saw the kid the other night and a week ago doing an interview, no way. If I am wrong then I will apologize, but Kadri is not close to that.

as for the Leafs getting a LEGIT #1 center, please tell me who that is, because I doubt any LEGIT #1 center will come there willingly. I dont say that out of disrespect, but I just dont think you will have a Brad Richards go " I want to go play in Toronto". It just hasnt happened in a long time for you guys, and that will continue until you trade for someone like a Weiss. Weiss may not be a legit #1 center, but he is better then what you have imo.
LOL!!!! If bringing Weiss here is all we need to attract Richards and stamkos and crosby ETC,,than i say Hell...go get him. Who knew the stars of the game regarded Weiss so highly.

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02-26-2011, 03:10 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
um, who else is out there that you guys have any real shot at getting?

Stastny? If you arent willing to pay for Weiss, I cant imagine what Stastny would cost you guys; Kadri and a 1st for sure.

Toronto isnt in a position to land any legit center through free agency as players "snub" Toronto, the only way is through trade, and imo Weiss is the best you have a realistic chance at.

Throw me some names out there as to who would be a #1 center that you have a legit shot at getting? Brad Richards would be too high imo, and all that would be left is maybe a Tim Connolly, but he has his own issues and hasnt really played a consistent #1 center.
You're missing out on a key piece of information -- Stephen Weiss is not a legit #1 centre. He's a legit top 6 guy that can be cast as a #1C, but so could Tim Connolly who would problably be attracted to the opportunity to come to Toronto and play on a #1 line with Phil Kessel. If Toronto can't sign him, then you sign a high quality #3 guy and build a strong team around a weak group of centres.

As for Stastny, he's the kind of centre we would pay a premium for, because he's actually a guy that we'd want in the #1 position long term. Weiss would be a stop gap and while he would improve our centre situation, we'd still be looking for an upgrade.

Weiss' value may be a 1st + Kadri calibre prospect, in the sense that another team may be willing to trade that. However, Toronto will not be that team. At that price, they'll respectfully decline.

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02-26-2011, 03:10 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
LOL!!!! If bringing Weiss here is all we need to attract Richards and stamkos and crosby ETC,,than i say Hell...go get him. Who knew the stars of the game regarded Weiss so highly.
you misread my post, not stating that Weiss is going to help bring in anyone, I simply said he is the best you are going to get at that position. I didnt mean free agents are going to say hey Toronto got Weiss so lets go play for them now...it was more about the only way you will land anyone of that calibre will be through a trade and Weiss looks like the best you guys can get. If you get Stastny or Richards, God bless you, I would love to see what the return for those guys would be, even a rental like Richards would be very pricey.

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02-26-2011, 03:13 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
um, who else is out there that you guys have any real shot at getting?

Stastny? If you arent willing to pay for Weiss, I cant imagine what Stastny would cost you guys; Kadri and a 1st for sure.

Toronto isnt in a position to land any legit center through free agency as players "snub" Toronto, the only way is through trade, and imo Weiss is the best you have a realistic chance at.

Throw me some names out there as to who would be a #1 center that you have a legit shot at getting? Brad Richards would be too high imo, and all that would be left is maybe a Tim Connolly, but he has his own issues and hasnt really played a consistent #1 center.
I think most on here would be alright with trading Nazem for Statsny. Statsny is SUBSTANTIALLY better than Weiss. He's actually a number 1 as opposed to Weiss. You're seriously dreaming if you think the Panthers will get anything close to a Kadri type prospect for Weiss. I mean the three panther games i've been to this year, Weiss didn't even look like the best centre on his team. That distinction goes to Mike Santorelli.

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02-26-2011, 03:13 PM
  #192
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You're missing out on a key piece of information -- Stephen Weiss is not a legit #1 centre. He's a legit top 6 guy that can be cast as a #1C, but so could Tim Connolly who would problably be attracted to the opportunity to come to Toronto and play on a #1 line with Phil Kessel. If Toronto can't sign him, then you sign a high quality #3 guy and build a strong team around a weak group of centres.

As for Stastny, he's the kind of centre we would pay a premium for, because he's actually a guy that we'd want in the #1 position long term. Weiss would be a stop gap and while he would improve our centre situation, we'd still be looking for an upgrade.
I never said Weiss was a legit #1 center, I said he is the best you guys will probably get....1B -1C range, but still would be a solid top line guy for you. Stastny would cost a ton, not sure if you would part with all that or if Colorado would want more NHL ready players....will be fun to see how it all unfolds.

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02-26-2011, 03:15 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
I never said Weiss was a legit #1 center, I said he is the best you guys will probably get....1B -1C range, but still would be a solid top line guy for you. Stastny would cost a ton, not sure if you would part with all that or if Colorado would want more NHL ready players....will be fun to see how it all unfolds.
Just because he's the best we can get, doesn't mean it makes sense to clear out very valuable pieces to get him. There are slightly inferior options that allow us to keep our high potential players.

Stastny would cost a ton, and Toronto should be willing to pay that, because like I said, he's the kind of guy we'd want in the #1 C position long term. This is his 5th season in the league, and he's been over 70 points (primarily assists like we would want for a centre like Kessel) in 3/4 years so far.

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02-26-2011, 03:15 PM
  #194
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So, what I'm getting out of this thread:


One side (Leaf fans) are saying, basically "we don't need to pay a high price for Weiss, we're okay going with Kadri down the road" So, that's fine, if Toronto wants to wait and see what other options become available, or develop prospects, fine.

The other side seems to almost be INSISTING "You MUST take Weiss and you must give us Kadri and you're being foolish if you want to wait 3-4 years for Kadri".


It Toronto wants to develop their own prospects, what's the problem? One of the bigger slams against Toronto is "they don't want to rebuild traditional way (developing prospects) they want to compete NOW!" So when they actually are wanting to develop prospects, they are derided for wanting to wait for "proper' rebuild?

Sounds like Toronto can't win here.

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02-26-2011, 03:17 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Dion Kessel View Post
I think most on here would be alright with trading Nazem for Statsny. Statsny is SUBSTANTIALLY better than Weiss. He's actually a number 1 as opposed to Weiss. You're seriously dreaming if you think the Panthers will get anything close to a Kadri type prospect for Weiss. I mean the three panther games i've been to this year, Weiss didn't even look like the best centre on his team. That distinction goes to Mike Santorelli.
hey I'm pulling for the Leafs to start doing something as I want to see Burke turn that ship around and make it happen. I just think if you have the chance to land a talented player now, that can be around and play at a high level for another 5-6 years, you go do that. Are you saying Weiss wouldnt help you guys win now? Do you think he couldnt create some magic with Kessel? It is all hypothetical, but I went through years of **** in Chicago, and I would have loved to had the chance to land a player like Weiss to help with that turn around. Bringing a guy like Weiss shows a message to the players, the fans, and the city that you are serious about winning and that you are trying to attract talent to come here. Weiss isnt Crosby, but as I said 15 times before, he is better then what you guys have and has been for some time now.

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02-26-2011, 03:19 PM
  #196
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For every Richards or Giroux (legit start players), you have 10+ times as many guys who never even sniff an NHL career, or turn into a marginal 4th liner. Do you value the lottery ticket on the $2 you paid for it, or the $1M prize? I'm not saying that this is a slam dunk trade for the Leafs, just that the thought of trading two very late 1st rounders for a Weiss isn't the travesty that Leafs posters are making it out be.

I definetely agree that WYSIWYG with Weiss. That being said - he's a legit scoring line center who is good on the dot, and locked up at a very reasonable rate for multiple years (I believe so - not 100% positive).
LOL, we are talking about guys rated among the TOP THIRTY prospects in the world, you are telling me that most of them end up pumping gas or sitting in press boxes half the time? The Flyers got Richards and Giroux within three or four years of one another and in that time their 21st or 22nd pick turned into rask, that's three guys in four years picked in the high to mid 20s that turned into VERY good players.

There are plenty of good players available there, you're talking about the top 25-30 like like the top 125-130.

If you think that of players picked in the first round, I suspect you're the fan of a team that squanders its picks routinely.

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02-26-2011, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AmericanDream View Post
hey I'm pulling for the Leafs to start doing something as I want to see Burke turn that ship around and make it happen. I just think if you have the chance to land a talented player now, that can be around and play at a high level for another 5-6 years, you go do that. Are you saying Weiss wouldnt help you guys win now? Do you think he couldnt create some magic with Kessel? It is all hypothetical, but I went through years of **** in Chicago, and I would have loved to had the chance to land a player like Weiss to help with that turn around. Bringing a guy like Weiss shows a message to the players, the fans, and the city that you are serious about winning and that you are trying to attract talent to come here. Weiss isnt Crosby, but as I said 15 times before, he is better then what you guys have and has been for some time now.
Except Weiss is severely overrated. Guy is barely better than what Stajan was giving us 2 years ago.

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02-26-2011, 03:21 PM
  #198
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Except Weiss is severely overrated. Guy is barely better than what Stajan was giving us 2 years ago.
Exactly. And all we heard was how Stajan was a third liner.

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02-26-2011, 03:21 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So, what I'm getting out of this thread:


One side (Leaf fans) are saying, basically "we don't need to pay a high price for Weiss, we're okay going with Kadri down the road" So, that's fine, if Toronto wants to wait and see what other options become available, or develop prospects, fine.

The other side seems to almost be INSISTING "You MUST take Weiss and you must give us Kadri and you're being foolish if you want to wait 3-4 years for Kadri".


It Toronto wants to develop their own prospects, what's the problem? One of the bigger slams against Toronto is "they don't want to rebuild traditional way (developing prospects) they want to compete NOW!" So when they actually are wanting to develop prospects, they are derided for wanting to wait for "proper' rebuild?

Sounds like Toronto can't win here.
I dont think anyone is insisting you must take Weiss. I am saying the guy is talented and will help both now and in the future, so why not? You guys havent won squat in what, 40 years?

and blame Burke as he stated that he wants to win now, doesnt like building through the draft, and is willing to do whatever necessary to accomplish this. maybe my view is jaded by that, but as I said, I went through a 10 year rebuild with the Hawks, and at any time if we could have landed a Weiss for one of our top prospects I would have done that in a heartbeat because I want my team to start winning and attracting some talent to my city!

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02-26-2011, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So, what I'm getting out of this thread:


One side (Leaf fans) are saying, basically "we don't need to pay a high price for Weiss, we're okay going with Kadri down the road" So, that's fine, if Toronto wants to wait and see what other options become available, or develop prospects, fine.

The other side seems to almost be INSISTING "You MUST take Weiss and you must give us Kadri and you're being foolish if you want to wait 3-4 years for Kadri".


It Toronto wants to develop their own prospects, what's the problem? One of the bigger slams against Toronto is "they don't want to rebuild traditional way (developing prospects) they want to compete NOW!" So when they actually are wanting to develop prospects, they are derided for wanting to wait for "proper' rebuild?

Sounds like Toronto can't win here.
Pretty much. Everybody has contradictory views towards Toronto.

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