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Old
02-26-2011, 09:56 AM
  #51
le_sean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Markov Ehrhoff
Brewer Subban
Spacek Gorges
Canucks have a lot of cap space in the summer, Ehrhoff is not going anywhere. I like the idea of Brewer though.

As for a tough mother ****er, I would like to see if Andy Sutton would be available. 6'6 245 lbs, comes up with some huge open ice hits. A player like that makes others think.

And can we all give up the idea of re-signing Hamrlik? One of the biggest problems on this team is mobility on the backend. He skates like he's on cement. I understand he is a work horse from time to time, but the decline is pretty obvious, let someone younger fill in for him.

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02-26-2011, 09:58 AM
  #52
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Tentatively..............I guess:

Markov - (A Regehr Type D-man)
Gorges - Subban
Hamrlik / Spacek - Wiz / Weber


Markov: hopefully he will re-sign for a reasonable, bonus laden contract.

Subban: keep Markov and PK separated so there's PMD on each top pair but how?

Gorges: I've never been too crazy about him on a top pairing because of his strength and stamina but ..............

Wiz: haven't been crazy about his D to be on a top pairing. Don't know about him.

Hamrlik on the third pairing would be a luxury. Overall good d-man who probably would end up on the top pairing after Markov gets injured again.

Spacek: I simply have no idea given the mysterious illness that surrounds him. He'd be fine on the third pairing on his natural side though.

Weber: he certainly progressed and my dream would be for him to become a solid third pairing d-man next year.

Gill: no thanks. Gorges carried the PK and Gill is useless except for the PK. I'd rather more mobile guys killing penalties. If you compare points to ES minutes played I wouldn't be surprised if Gill is the least productive NHL d-man.

The D is really up in the air. There are guys who will be coming off major injuries. There are guys, that given their performances filling in for Markov, deserve a contract. There are some youngsters. And although many of us put Markov, Hamrlik, Gill and Gorges in the lineup, none of those guys are even signed.

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Old
02-26-2011, 09:59 AM
  #53
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Markov(5.5M)-Gorges(3M)
Pitkanen(5.25M)-Subban(.875M)
Spacek(3.833M)-Weber(1.1M)
Gill (1.2M)

I'd rather go after the big fish in Pitkanen with Hamrlik's open space then re-sign Hamrlik to a more cap-friendly contract. We need to get younger and more mobile, Pitkaken is a big upgrade on Hamrlik right now. If Markov goes down, he is capable of logging the #1 minutes and not get worn down. If we can't land that big fish I'd take a look at bringing Emelin over, hell I'd look at that anyways to see if we could play him on the third pairing and use Spacek as a depth guy. Other guys I'd try for before Hamrlik are: Brewer, Kaberle, Erhoff, Phillips.

That being said, you can't plan a defense corps for next season on Febuary 26th with so many months to free agency, Pitkaken could end up getting re-signed or maybe even traded to a team where he will re-sign, or he could just be signed by someone else more desperate on July 1st. Hamrlik would be a fine B option for me, but he simply can't replace Markov's minutes should he go down again.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:04 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
How has he played down the stretch? Like an old man incapable of logging top pairing minutes. How has the performed? As if they had a top pairing d-man who's too old for the job.

I agree in a limited role he can play the bottom pair, however, I'd rather have Gill than Hamrlik in the bottom pair role.

Like I said, and I stress this point, Hamrlik made a career out of his mobility (that he is losing, noticeably). Gill made a career out of his size and reach, and he still plays just as effective as he always has.
Lets put Hamrlik with a guy like Gorges consistently. Hell, let's give him Sopes.

Hamrlik has *almost* always had the weakest partner, defensively, on the team. Gill has been blessed with the likes of Gorges for most of his tenure and recently Subban, who is quick enough to recover should Gill mess up.

How has Hamrlik looked down the stretch this year? He's looking fine to me. He makes the odd mistake, but so does everyone.

Fact of the matter is; Hamrlik contributes everywhere.

I'm guessing most forwards would rather play against Gill than Hamrlik. Wish we could do a poll. lol.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:05 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Markov Ehrhoff
Brewer Subban
Spacek Gorges
Sounds expensive

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:08 AM
  #56
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Markov-Subban
Gorges-Wiz
Hamrlik-Weber

Solid mix of d/o, rh/lh, youth/vet

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:11 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post

I'm guessing most forwards would rather play against Gill than Hamrlik. Wish we could do a poll. lol.
Funny you said, that because a few years back, Jaromir Jagar was asked :

Who is the hardest D-man to play against?

His answer was Hal Gill.


I still contest that Gill is extremely underrated, there is a reason why he was on the ice in game 7 in the final seconds of the stanley cup. There's a reason why he played such an instrumental role for the Penguins in their cup journey. He's effective when it counts.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:14 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Lets put Hamrlik with a guy like Gorges consistently. Hell, let's give him Sopes.

Hamrlik has *almost* always had the weakest partner, defensively, on the team. Gill has been blessed with the likes of Gorges for most of his tenure and recently Subban, who is quick enough to recover should Gill mess up.

How has Hamrlik looked down the stretch this year? He's looking fine to me. He makes the odd mistake, but so does everyone.

Fact of the matter is; Hamrlik contributes everywhere.

I'm guessing most forwards would rather play against Gill than Hamrlik. Wish we could do a poll. lol.
Sorry, but you have to cut ties at some point. I assume the only thing that would bring Hamrlik back is a two year deal. No one should give a 38 year old not named Lidstrom or Selanne a two year deal.

I know what you are saying about his contribution, but what are the options? Subban and Weber are rookies, Martin would never do that throughout an entire season, Gill is strictly a defensive defenceman and Wisniewski is pretty poor defensively. Of course Hamrlik is going to play a lot of minutes.

There are better and younger options out there. If you have a defence headlined by two players that just missed an entire season and need 20-30 games to get back in shape, and a 38 year old turtle, you are asking for trouble.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:25 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Whitesnake, you say that Gill can slowdown and become less speedy ?

The man can not get any slower.

He has not relied on his speed his entire career; it's all about using his size and reach to block shots and clear pucks. The only concern that I agree with is injury.

Even if he only plays 30-40 games, we need him for the playoffs.

Gill is the most underrated shutdown d-man in the league. Just look at the Penguins since his departure But seriously,he was on the ice for last seconds of the 7th game against the Wings. There's a reason for that.


Hamrlik on the other hand, relies on his mobility, and if we are just going to be using him as a bottom pairing d-man with limited minutes, I rather have Gill.

Hamrlik and Spacek to me are pretty much finished, I called it before the season and I was right... They rely too much on mobility to be effective / stay healthy at this point in their career.

Gill on the other hand will continue to get the job done by the nature of his style of play and size.
Dude, this mobility vs lack of it + reach argument is retarded.

Hammer will slow down more because he relies on mobility. Whereas Gill is already arguably the slowest in the NHL (a lot more so than Hammer) but uses his reach to be effective and so won't be affected. So what...Gill will play until he's 45 because he doesn't rely on mobility?? That's retarded.

Hammer is better than Gill. He was better last year, and is again this year. The man is extremely underrated while having stepped up incredibly to compensate Markov's absence two years in a row now. Recognizing this but then saying ''I rather keep Gill'' because Hammer will slow down more and simply won't be as good as Gill is very contradictory.
Hammer used to be a very offensively minded Dman. He made the switch to a more defensive one capable of bringing a bit of an offensive touch without having any problems at all. So why exactly would he have a problem adapting to a more defensive role? Also, the man has been overused these past couple years. If you use him less, a lot less, where he gets #4-5-6 minutes, then explain to me why he'll suddenly have lost his mobility? Because he will be a few months older? Right, that makes a ton of sense.
Hal Gill is good for one thing, reach. If he didn't have that, he wouldn't be in the NHL anymore. He doesn't block more shots than Hammer, he has more giveaways, less takeaways, less points and simply can't play in every situation.

Salary is the ONLY argument for wanting him over Hammer. Being a vocal leader in the room is not an argument as it has no bearing whatsoever on the on-ice contribution. Sign him as a 7th Dman and keep him around if you want that. If he wants a bigger role, then bye-bye.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:30 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I'm guessing most forwards would rather play against Gill than Hamrlik. Wish we could do a poll. lol.
It's probably Gill.

If I was a forward the only thing that Hamrlik has an advantage over Gill is foot speed, and even then it's not what it once was. Gill has longer reach, Gill is tougher (which says a lot, because Gill isn't even that tough) in front of the net, and Gill is generally better positioned once established in the zone.

I like Hamrlik, I think he's been very serviceable in his 4 years here and I doubt we make the playoffs without his contributions in those 4 years. That being said, his game is degrading due to his age and I'm not a believer that he can log Markov's minutes should he be injured again at his age. I'm not saying Gill is a better answer, I don't think either are legitimate options for next season should we want to IMPROVE our defense position, it'd be enough to get us by if Markov stays healthy but to me thats too big of a question mark.

My biggest knock against you natey is that you seem to get overly attached to certain players and just can't see through their weaknesses. Like others are saying, at some point you just have to cut ties and improve your team.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:38 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Funny you said, that because a few years back, Jaromir Jagar was asked :

Who is the hardest D-man to play against?

His answer was Hal Gill.


I still contest that Gill is extremely underrated, there is a reason why he was on the ice in game 7 in the final seconds of the stanley cup. There's a reason why he played such an instrumental role for the Penguins in their cup journey. He's effective when it counts.
How exactly does this have any relevance to today? If I remember correctly, this was when Jagr was a Penguins, 10 years ago. Or was it when Gill was a Bruins 6 years ago?
In any event, a long freaking time ago. Ovechkin said it was Markov. What is the point of all this?

Didn't Detroit have a scoring chance in the last seconds of that Game 7? Was it thanks to Gill that Lidstrom missed the net?..Sure it was..

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:43 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
It's probably Gill.

If I was a forward the only thing that Hamrlik has an advantage over Gill is foot speed, and even then it's not what it once was. Gill has longer reach, Gill is tougher (which says a lot, because Gill isn't even that tough) in front of the net, and Gill is generally better positioned once established in the zone.

I like Hamrlik, I think he's been very serviceable in his 4 years here and I doubt we make the playoffs without his contributions in those 4 years. That being said, his game is degrading due to his age and I'm not a believer that he can log Markov's minutes should he be injured again at his age. I'm not saying Gill is a better answer, I don't think either are legitimate options for next season should we want to IMPROVE our defense position, it'd be enough to get us by if Markov stays healthy but to me thats too big of a question mark.

My biggest knock against you natey is that you seem to get overly attached to certain players and just can't see through their weaknesses. Like others are saying, at some point you just have to cut ties and improve your team.
True.
Might I add that he shouldn't be doing it either? He should not have done it last year, he shouldn't be doing it this year, but hey, he's holding his own very well so far.
Nobody here is arguing Hammer should be kept in case Markov goes down. He admitted being willing to drop down to smaller roles. If you can have Hamrlik playing 17min on the bottom pairing at a cheap contract, it would be crazy to pass up on it.
You know he's capable of stepping in, short term, if your top guys go through injuries. Gill won't give you that depth.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:46 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
True.
Might I add that he shouldn't be doing it either? He should not have done it last year, he shouldn't be doing it this year, but hey, he's holding his own very well so far.
Nobody here is arguing Hammer should be kept in case Markov goes down. He admitted being willing to drop down to smaller roles. If you can have Hamrlik playing 17min on the bottom pairing at a cheap contract, it would be crazy to pass up on it.
You know he's capable of stepping in, short term, if your top guys go through injuries. Gill won't give you that depth.
The problem isn't Gill, it's Spacek. Spacek is under contract next season, and IMO the difference between he & Hammer is negligable at best when Spacek is given an opportunity to play natural side. No sense having 2LD over 37 years old at the salaries they will command. Spacek can't go to the minors or retire, his cap hit will remain.

IMO, it's time to walk away from Hamrlik AND Gill and try to find a younger alternative.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:48 AM
  #64
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Canucks have a lot of cap space in the summer, Ehrhoff is not going anywhere. I like the idea of Brewer though.

As for a tough mother ****er, I would like to see if Andy Sutton would be available. 6'6 245 lbs, comes up with some huge open ice hits. A player like that makes others think.

And can we all give up the idea of re-signing Hamrlik? One of the biggest problems on this team is mobility on the backend. He skates like he's on cement. I understand he is a work horse from time to time, but the decline is pretty obvious, let someone younger fill in for him.
No offense, you say mobility is a problem on the back end, but then you suggest the signing of Andy Sutton. Andy Sutton is physical sure, but his defensive game isn't anywhere close to Hamrlik's and is less mobile. I'd rather sign Hamrlik(I hope the habs do sign him actually at a significant discount, if they can move Spacek).

I get the obession with size and all, but Sutton is not better than Hamrlik. All he does is bring physical play, but isn't as good defensively or mobility wise as Hammer(and that's not a good thing for either of the two players: refering to mobility).

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:48 AM
  #65
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I would want;

Markov-Subban
Hamrlik-Wiz
Sopel-Gorges
Weber

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:51 AM
  #66
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The problem isn't Gill, it's Spacek. Spacek is under contract next season, and IMO the difference between he & Hammer is negligable at best when Spacek is given an opportunity to play natural side. No sense having 2LD over 37 years old at the salaries they will command. Spacek can't go to the minors or retire, his cap hit will remain.

IMO, it's time to walk away from Hamrlik AND Gill and try to find a younger alternative.
I'm all for letting these guys walk, and I'm up for moving Spacek as well. We need to revamp our squad.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:53 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Markov - Wiz
Gorges - Subban
Hamrlik/Sopel* - Weber
Picard, Carle, Mara **


* Whoever comes cheaper and plays better down the stretch/playoffs.
** Any one of them is fine in the #7 role. I'd prefer Carle, but I'm fine with Picard or Mara.

- Spacek traded for a mid-round pick. People are crazy if you don't think he will be moveable.
- I like Gill a lot, but I prefer Hamrlik.
I'll second this post. This is what I'd do as well.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:55 AM
  #68
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I'm all for letting these guys walk, and I'm up for moving Spacek as well. We need to revamp our squad.
Exactly what I'm getting at. So I don't understand why everyone wants to bring back Hamrlik and/or Gill. I can understand bringing them back in a depth role, or as a plan B, but we really need to get younger and more mobile back there and in a hurry.

If we could unload Spacek somewhere and bring back Hamrlik to play bottom pairing, I'd be A-OK with that and it would be a slight upgrade. I just don't know if we will be able to unload him, he was playing great before being hurt and I think it would have been possible, now i'm not so sure.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:58 AM
  #69
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i lol'd at the thread title hahaha
good show harryI hahah

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Old
02-26-2011, 11:00 AM
  #70
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It's a huge gamble to think playing with Markov will make the Wiz a dependable top pairing guy instead of a PP scorer with defensive issue. Plus he's going to want more money than we can afford.

I've been more impressed with Weber than Wiz at times. If Subby can partner Markov then I would go the cheaper homegrown route and spend the savings on a new top scorer.

Markov-Subban
Spacek-Weber
Gorges-Sopel

But it is awful tempting to give the Wiz what he wants, let the Hammer retire in Montreal and trust the General to make it all work.

Markov-Wiz
Hamrlik-Subban
Gill-Gorges

I think this is the way it goes, spend on the D and make up the difference with cheap forwards.

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Old
02-26-2011, 11:36 AM
  #71
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I think there are a lot of question marks for next season on the defence. I would like to see the team get younger and have a good mix of rh and lh shots back there. I see on a couple of peoples pairings listed that there is 5 lh dmen and Subban. I would like to see Markov signed back and of course Gorges. The team needs to make a decision on Gorges before signing others IMO. He was playing on his wrong side the last little while but I would like to see him go back to his natural left side on the third pairing. I'm not overly sold on Wiz or Weber right now. I think having one on the third pairing with Gorges would be ok but I don't think I would sign them both. Is moving Spacek possible? I'm not sure. He may be a good 7th dman option but at a very high price tag. Others are wondering about Emelin. I would not pencil him in the top 4 like I see some others. But he may be a good bottom pairing / 7th dman option though, ease him into a bigger role (if he shows he is capable).

There are 3 UFA dmen from Vancouver I would be interested in. Ehrhoff is definitely my first option. There are also Bieksa and Salo. Salo is getting up there in age and has been a little injury prone too. But the guy is still very effective. I'm not sure which ones make it to July 1 though.

I would also like to know who is available for trade at the end of the season. During the draft there may be some good young players available. I would love to see a young RH dman come available. I wouldn't be apposed to see the Habs make an offer sheet to a young star either.

There are more LH dman available now than RH. So if Gorges stays playing on the right side for now there are more options.

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02-26-2011, 11:49 AM
  #72
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Markov - Bieksa
Ehrhoff (or shutdown D ala Regher) - Subban
Gorges-Weber

bottom 3 would be cheap, around 4M$ for the three, would allow us to spend more on the top 3. And we get younger in the process.

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02-26-2011, 12:02 PM
  #73
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At this pioint the defense is a really tough call with all the unknowns.

I think Subban and Gorges are the only two locks. Gorges is a RFA but unless he really drives a hard bargain, he should be back.

Weber will be a RFA, I see him being part of the picture long term unless he is a main cog in a trade.

Markov is the biggest question mark...I think the Habs want him back but there is a risk there so they want to see him recovered before putting anything on the table...either a 1 year deal or discounted 2-3 year deal.

Wisniewski is a UFA, I think he will stay as long as he isn't looking for the "jackpot". He brings a nice element of offense, strong on the PP, but if he comes with a 4 mil cap hit, they might let him walk and commit more ice time to Weber. His status is probably indirectly liked to Markov also.

Spacek Hamrlik and Gill won't all be back I'm pretty sure. Ideally we could trade Spacek and use the cap room on Hamrlik at 3.5-3.8 for 1-2 years.

Picard I can't see him back, with Sopel and mara coming in I thought he'd be sent down by now.

Sopel, I think could be an option next year but it depends on the status of Gill, Hamrlik and Spacek.

Mara I think he is a short term fix unless he plays great for now on in.

Yemelin I hope he is in the picture for next year, brings an element of size, skill and physicality.

One hope I have is that we get younger on defense, if we keep Subban Weber Gorges and can bring in Yemelin, those are all players in place for 4-5 years at least. Then some veteran guys mixed in...

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02-26-2011, 12:46 PM
  #74
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I posted this in the Trade Proposal Thread. But I would be interested in Roman Polak for next season. Maybe something involving AK for him. Good defensive dman that plays on the right side. Something the Habs are lacking in my opinion.

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Old
02-26-2011, 03:53 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
No offense, you say mobility is a problem on the back end, but then you suggest the signing of Andy Sutton. Andy Sutton is physical sure, but his defensive game isn't anywhere close to Hamrlik's and is less mobile. I'd rather sign Hamrlik(I hope the habs do sign him actually at a significant discount, if they can move Spacek).

I get the obession with size and all, but Sutton is not better than Hamrlik. All he does is bring physical play, but isn't as good defensively or mobility wise as Hammer(and that's not a good thing for either of the two players: refering to mobility).
Getting Sutton would not be to replace Hamrlik. It would be to play on the bottom pairing, 14 mins a game.

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