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Setoguchi good trade bait?

View Poll Results: Should the Sharks keep or trade Devin Setoguchi?
Keep him 92 91.09%
Trade him 9 8.91%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-26-2011, 04:08 PM
  #26
Janney
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
I think they would want a roster player in return. Would anyone go as far as trading Seto, Vlasic, 1st for Bogosian? We need them for the playoffs, that's the problem. Let's trade White, lol.

I don't want Booth. Concussion history, plus just meh...
I say have one of those in there, but not both. Either reduce the pick we give them...or get like a 2nd/3rd in return from the Thrashers. But yeah trading Vlasic now will be a serious punch to the throat.

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02-26-2011, 04:12 PM
  #27
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Amen.


I was only one of two people to vote 'trade him'? Hahaha, I look silly now. I say definitely shop him around on the 28th. Teams are more inclined to overpay during deadlines, so if its one of those Avs-Blues trades, where we're not using Seto for a rental but solidifying, say our defense, or just get a better return even if it is a forward...then why not?

There's been talk about David Booth potentially being dealt out of the Panthers (not entirely a hot rumor, but his name does get thrown around). Then you got your Bogosian rumors. Like Davidhye mentioned above, Seto+young Dman+pick for Bogo...or use a different package to get a guy like Booth (I mean you'd have to deal with serious cap issues and all that, but he's just an example for arguments sake), I say pull the trigger.
The attitude of casting off guys on what amounts to a grass is greener basis is what gets a lot of GMs into the position of never seeing that silver thingy. Homegrown counts and the weight of the homegrown argument can be shown statistically in more ways than one. I was never on the dump Seto wagon, certainly not now. I see his value as a fairly high end secondary scorer in the playoffs.

I cannot understand how some people miss the message of the last playoffs. Please look at the roots of the guys who led the team in scoring in regular season and the shift towards getting scoring from homegrown on the Sharks. There are very few acquired players who match or beat regular season numbers in the playoffs despite many putting up better reg. season numbers.

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02-26-2011, 04:16 PM
  #28
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I don't believe in the homegrown argument. It just has more to do with the players being more familiar with the system, etc. If certain players are UFA the next season, maybe they will play not to get hurt because it would limit their ability to get the top $, but those already on the contract? No difference. You can't make an argument that Boyle doesn't give it all or less than any of the homegrown dmen. Or that Thornton didn't play his best, and maybe even better than Marleau.

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02-26-2011, 04:18 PM
  #29
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Trading Vlasic would be a horrible idea for the sharks. He's finally starting to improve and play a more aggressive/physical game. The sharks would be dumb to mess with the core at this point.

If we are trying to win now it would be a bad idea. Vlasic is better than Bogosian right now and downgrading on the blueline is the last thing we need. Besides, who would Bogosian play with? White? Demers? Boyle?

If we went after Bogosian I would rather trade Braun or Demers for him rather than Vlasic (but even then, I would rather not go after him)

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02-26-2011, 04:21 PM
  #30
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The good thing about Bogosian is that he has the potential to replace Boyle when retires in '14. Demers/Braun/Irwin/Petrecki/Doherty don't have that potential. But yes, trading Demers and Braun would make more sense but it might not work as well cap wise.

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02-26-2011, 04:22 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Melvin10 View Post
I can see Seto being a dynamic goal scorer for years to come. I think he has much more potential than Bernier, Michalek, or Cheechoo had. I'd really hate to see him go. But in my opinion at this point I'd hang on to him.
Uhh... lets' not get carried away. He's hot right now and getting goals because he's using his speed....finally.

All those other players had something Seto dosn't have.. good stick handling skills. This is what has plagued him in his career so far. Hands of stone, and not using his skating ability.

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02-26-2011, 04:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
I don't believe in the homegrown argument. It just has more to do with the players being more familiar with the system, etc. If certain players are UFA the next season, maybe they will play not to get hurt because it would limit their ability to get the top $, but those already on the contract? No difference. You can't make an argument that Boyle doesn't give it all or less than any of the homegrown dmen. Or that Thornton didn't play his best, and maybe even better than Marleau.
The numbers disagree with you. You don't eliminate chances, you reduce them. It doesn't have to do with the players' mentality so much as the organizations' way of thinking. Citing Boyle and JT attitudes has nothing to do with the core reasons that I believe to be behind the data. Homegrown is much more true for forwards than dmen; I have no guesses as to reasons why.

By the same data, homegrown vs acquired has almost no bearing on reg. season success.

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02-26-2011, 04:29 PM
  #33
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Citing numbers without a coherent explanation to their meaning is useless. What are the core reasons?

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02-26-2011, 04:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Trading Vlasic would be a horrible idea for the sharks. He's finally starting to improve and play a more aggressive/physical game. The sharks would be dumb to mess with the core at this point.

If we are trying to win now it would be a bad idea. Vlasic is better than Bogosian right now and downgrading on the blueline is the last thing we need. Besides, who would Bogosian play with? White? Demers? Boyle?

If we went after Bogosian I would rather trade Braun or Demers for him rather than Vlasic (but even then, I would rather not go after him)
You are way higher on Vlasic than warranted. He's terrible in the playoffs and is the epitome of a choke artist.

Demers is already better than him and has more upside. Braun has skills Vlasic doesn't posses and a way higher ceiling too.

Everyone needs to forget how cool and poised Vlasic seemed as a rookie... that was great but now he's plateau'd into an average dman who can't perform under pressure.

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02-26-2011, 04:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
You are way higher on Vlasic than warranted. He's terrible in the playoffs and is the epitome of a choke artist.

Demers is already better than him and has more upside. Braun has skills Vlasic doesn't posses and a way higher ceiling too.

Everyone needs to forget how cool and poised Vlasic seemed as a rookie... that was great but now he's plateau'd into an average dman who can't perform under pressure.
He's 23. Many D-man don't even make it to the NHL till their 23.

Demers and Braun are great, but they need time to improve. Demers is not even close to the defensive ability of Vlasic, nor is Braun.

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02-26-2011, 04:47 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Citing numbers without a coherent explanation to their meaning is useless. What are the core reasons?
Not answering on Easy's behalf, but IMO: there is an intangible element of pride when it comes to the postseason that cannot be understated. This isn't NHL 11 as much as a lot of people who post inane trade proposals on this website (not talking about you--you're one of the good ones) like to think it is. Of course the vast majority of players dream of the Stanley Cup and are motivated to win it above all else but ask yourself who is really more likely to go all out when their performance may have little to no impact on their next contract: Dany Heatley, on his third team since the lockout; or Joe Pavelski, given a chance by being drafted in the seventh round by the organization and rewarded for his efforts by being given a chance to excel through the development system and finally be promoted to the big club, eventually solidifying his status on the second line through merit? You don't need to answer that question, since we all witnessed the response last spring. Every season since the lockout (and even pre-dating that), the biggest producers for the Stanley Cup champion have been a core of homegrown, drafted-and-developed forwards. There are a few exceptions and really the only notable ones are Danny Briere and Martin St. Louis, both undersized forwards with perennial chips on their shoulder due to the former being tossed around on waivers like garbage and the latter never having been drafted. There are reasons for the statistics other than pride but IMO that's the main one.

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02-26-2011, 04:56 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Not answering on Easy's behalf, but IMO: there is an intangible element of pride when it comes to the postseason that cannot be understated. This isn't NHL 11 as much as a lot of people who post inane trade proposals on this website (not talking about you--you're one of the good ones) like to think it is. Of course the vast majority of players dream of the Stanley Cup and are motivated to win it above all else but ask yourself who is really more likely to go all out when their performance may have little to no impact on their next contract: Dany Heatley, on his third team since the lockout; or Joe Pavelski, given a chance by being drafted in the seventh round by the organization and rewarded for his efforts by being given a chance to excel through the development system and finally be promoted to the big club, eventually solidifying his status on the second line through merit? You don't need to answer that question, since we all witnessed the response last spring. Every season since the lockout (and even pre-dating that), the biggest producers for the Stanley Cup champion have been a core of homegrown, drafted-and-developed forwards. There are a few exceptions and really the only notable ones are Danny Briere and Martin St. Louis, both undersized forwards with perennial chips on their shoulder due to the former being tossed around on waivers like garbage and the latter never having been drafted. There are reasons for the statistics other than pride but IMO that's the main one.
Well stated for one of the reasons. I'll have to keep your post.

The other one is the players view of how the org views them. Are they pieces of meat or are they people? Are you going to try harder for someone who sees you as a piece of meat or someone who sees you as a human being?

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02-26-2011, 04:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Of course the vast majority of players dream of the Stanley Cup and are motivated to win it above all else but ask yourself who is really more likely to go all out when their performance may have little to no impact on their next contract: Dany Heatley, on his third team since the lockout; or Joe Pavelski, given a chance by being drafted in the seventh round by the organization and rewarded for his efforts by being given a chance to excel through the development system and finally be promoted to the big club, eventually solidifying his status on the second line through merit? You don't need to answer that question, since we all witnessed the response last spring.
I will answer this question and I say there is no freaking difference. All that you just said is us making up a feel good story. Pride is good and all but the only difference that it makes would be in extraordinary situations where Pavelski would decide to block the shot with his face, while Heatley wouldn't, and it would lead to a goal.

Ask yourself this: who is really more likely to go all out when their performance may have little to no impact on their next contract: Patrick Marleau, who just signed a long and expensive contract with an NMC guaranteeing complete safety; or Dany Heatley, given a chance by the San Jose Sharks after hostile treatment in Ottawa and psychological bombardment by the coach, media and the fans? where he found a new home, a place where the coach gives him more responsibilities, believes in his abilities, and provides a warm and friendly environment, to which he is grateful and would go out of his way to prove during the playoffs and eventually would give "thanks" to the SJ Sharks organization and fans by helping his team win the Stanley Cup.

See what I just did?

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02-26-2011, 04:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The other one is the players view of how the org views them. Are they pieces of meat or are they people? Are you going to try harder for someone who sees you as a piece of meat or someone who sees you as a human being?
Players don't need the organization to be a big warm fuzzy family. They need it to be almost like a distant father that you go out of your way to impress.

They should try hard because they want to stay with this organization, and their performance is based on that. Not because they wuv it so much and because Doug Wilson gives such warm and passionate hugs, and they don't want to lose that.

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02-26-2011, 05:02 PM
  #40
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You are way higher on Vlasic than warranted. He's terrible in the playoffs and is the epitome of a choke artist.

Demers is already better than him and has more upside. Braun has skills Vlasic doesn't posses and a way higher ceiling too.

Everyone needs to forget how cool and poised Vlasic seemed as a rookie... that was great but now he's plateau'd into an average dman who can't perform under pressure.
There is absolutely no way Demers is better than Vlasic at this point. I expect that he could surpass him in the future, due to his offense, but he will never be what Vlasic is defensively. Right now Demers is certainly not the better defenseman.

You can say Braun and Demers have a higher ceiling all you want, but that is only based on their offensive play. Vlasic's defensive ceiling is much higher than both which is the most important part of being a defenseman.

If you want a defense filled with only pure offensive defenseman down the road fine by me. But your team will not get very far if you take that route. We are already loaded with offensive defense prospects (Braun, Doherty, Demers) and if we are going to add Bogosian (which i dont think is likely) we should move one of them to make room.

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02-26-2011, 05:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Players don't need the organization to be a big warm fuzzy family. They need it to be almost like a distant father that you go out of your way to impress.

They should try hard because they want to stay with this organization, and their performance is based on that. Not because they wuv it so much and because Doug Wilson gives such warm and passionate hugs, and they don't want to lose that.
Not warm and fuzzy, just respectful. The exaggeration on your part detracts from your argument.

The respect issue is evident in other player issues like certain locales not being desirable. Certain coaches with repeated failures, etc.

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02-26-2011, 05:05 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post

If you want a defense filled with only pure offensive defenseman down the road fine by me. But your team will not get very far if you take that route. We are already loaded with offensive defense prospects (Braun, Doherty, Demers) and if we are going to add Bogosian (which i dont think is likely) we should move one of them to make room.
When I got a lot of Atlanta, Bogo didn't look like much on the offensive side. Fairly good instinct for pinching and a good shot. Not so good with the passes and other offensive attributes. In a sense, potentially a very good defensive dman with a good shot. Odd combo. I would slot him as more defensive than offensive.

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02-26-2011, 05:05 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
I will answer this question and I say there is no freaking difference. All that you just said is us making up a feel good story. Pride is good and all but the only difference that it makes would be in extraordinary situations where Pavelski would decide to block the shot with his face, while Heatley wouldn't, and it would lead to a goal.

Ask yourself this: who is really more likely to go all out when their performance may have little to no impact on their next contract: Patrick Marleau, who just signed a long and expensive contract with an NMC guaranteeing complete safety; or Dany Heatley, given a chance by the San Jose Sharks after hostile treatment in Ottawa and psychological bombardment by the coach, media and the fans? where he found a new home, a place where the coach gives him more responsibilities, believes in his abilities, and provides a warm and friendly environment, to which he is grateful and would go out of his way to prove during the playoffs and eventually would give "thanks" to the SJ Sharks organization and fans by helping his team win the Stanley Cup.

See what I just did?
I see the point you're trying to make, but that's hyperbolic to a comical extent and you know it. It isn't blocking shots, it's the willingness to put in the extra effort in the offensive zone that leads to most playoff goals. I apologize if I made it sound like there's some sort of huge gulf in performance catalyzed entirely by organizational pride (that would only happen when comparing two ends of the spectrum...say, Joe Sakic in 96 versus Kovalev for the Sens last spring) but there is undoubtedly a difference between the performance of a mercenary and a homegrown player in the postseason and when the margin of error is as tiny as it is most nights in the spring, that discrepancy in effort is liable to be the difference.

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02-26-2011, 05:08 PM
  #44
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It isn't blocking shots, it's the willingness to put in the extra effort in the offensive zone that leads to most playoff goals. I apologize if I made it sound like there's some sort of huge gulf in performance catalyzed entirely by organizational pride (that would only happen when comparing two ends of the spectrum...say, Joe Sakic in 96 versus Kovalev for the Sens last spring) but there is undoubtedly a difference between the performance of a mercenary and a homegrown player in the postseason and when the margin of error is as tiny as it is most nights in the spring, that discrepancy in effort is liable to be the difference.
I doubt Heatley doesn't put an extra effort in the off. zone. I can see this argument applied to rentals but not for someone you traded for and keep in your organization for good.

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02-26-2011, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
d

There is absolutely no way Demers is better than Vlasic at this point. I expect that he could surpass him in the future, due to his offense, but he will never be what Vlasic is defensively. Right now Demers is certainly not the better defenseman.

You can say Braun and Demers have a higher ceiling all you want, but that is only based on their offensive play. Vlasic's defensive ceiling is much higher than both which is the most important part of being a defenseman.

If you want a defense filled with only pure offensive defenseman down the road fine by me. But your team will not get very far if you take that route. We are already loaded with offensive defense prospects (Braun, Doherty, Demers) and if we are going to add Bogosian (which i dont think is likely) we should move one of them to make room.
Demers doesn't panic and turn the puck over everytime someone wants to hit him. I'd say that alone makes him at least as good defensively.

Demers isn't even really bad on defense. He makes an occasional positional mistake but it's becoming a rarity and it happens less than most of the other d-men on the Sharks. I don't like him just for offense I'm way more of defense guy anyway.

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02-26-2011, 05:18 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
When I got a lot of Atlanta, Bogo didn't look like much on the offensive side. Fairly good instinct for pinching and a good shot. Not so good with the passes and other offensive attributes. In a sense, potentially a very good defensive dman with a good shot. Odd combo. I would slot him as more defensive than offensive.
Well either way, a Bogosian-Demers pairing would not look good at all next season. That was my point. Our offensive prospects need a guy like Vlasic to hold the fort or the pairing will be a liability defensively. Bogosian wouldnt be able to hold the fort just yet.

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02-26-2011, 05:21 PM
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d

There is absolutely no way Demers is better than Vlasic at this point. I expect that he could surpass him in the future, due to his offense, but he will never be what Vlasic is defensively. Right now Demers is certainly not the better defenseman.

You can say Braun and Demers have a higher ceiling all you want, but that is only based on their offensive play. Vlasic's defensive ceiling is much higher than both which is the most important part of being a defenseman.

If you want a defense filled with only pure offensive defenseman down the road fine by me. But your team will not get very far if you take that route. We are already loaded with offensive defense prospects (Braun, Doherty, Demers) and if we are going to add Bogosian (which i dont think is likely) we should move one of them to make room.
Demers is far more valuable to the team right now. Increasingly the trend among the most successful teams has been to place a premium on two-way, puck-moving defensemen and it's no coincidence that the best teams' top 4 are comprised entirely of puck movers. Offense is a big part of a defenseman's responsibilities now and Vlasic doesn't just provide absolutely zip in that category, he detracts from the team's offensive game with his inability to advance the puck out of the zone to a teammate. His stickwork and positional play, while massively overrated by a lot of people on here, is good and probably better than Demers', but he just isn't even in the same stratosphere as Jason on the other side of the puck.

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02-26-2011, 05:23 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Well either way, a Bogosian-Demers pairing would not look good at all next season. That was my point. Our offensive prospects need a guy like Vlasic to hold the fort or the pairing will be a liability defensively. Bogosian wouldnt be able to hold the fort just yet.
I think it would. Bogosian throws a lot of hits and blocks a lot of shots. He is not stellar defensively 'cause his development stalled a bit in ATL but I think he would be a good a pair with Demers.

I would actually do something like:
White-Bogosian
Huskins-Demers
Braun

Let White go, get a solid def. bottom pairing dman for Braun, and roll Bogosian-Demers pairing for next season. If there's improvement in Bogo's play, swap him with Murray.

But anyways, it's not happening, so I should stop dreaming.

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02-26-2011, 05:26 PM
  #49
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Demers doesn't panic and turn the puck over everytime someone wants to hit him. I'd say that alone makes him at least as good defensively.
1. That is a complete over exaggeration
2. There is more to defense than a breakout pass
3. Demers has more givaways than Vlasic while playing in less games

lame post

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02-26-2011, 05:27 PM
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There are big questions regarding Bogo's IQ and decision-making ability that have plagued him since his draft year and have been somewhat underscored with his play so far this season--but then again he is still only 20 and playing for a very mediocre team. I would be wary of acquiring him. If they can swing it for Vlasic and a 2011 1st, that's fine but I wouldn't want to give up Setoguchi. According to Lebrun, Atlanta turned down two 1sts and a 2nd for him so clearly Dudley will be asking for the moon.

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