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Setoguchi good trade bait?

View Poll Results: Should the Sharks keep or trade Devin Setoguchi?
Keep him 92 91.09%
Trade him 9 8.91%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-26-2011, 05:30 PM
  #51
stalockrox
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
1. That is a complete over exaggeration
2. There is more to defense than a breakout pass
3. Demers has more givaways than Vlasic while playing in less games

lame post
I'm glad there's someone on here that appreciates Vlasic. The team defense would be a LOT worse w/o him.

It's also kinda silly to say that Braun will keep getting better but that Vlasic has hit his plateau. They're the same age! There is no reason Vlasic can't round out his game and trading him would be a mistake.

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02-26-2011, 05:32 PM
  #52
dwood16
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
1. That is a complete over exaggeration
2. There is more to defense than a breakout pass
3. Demers has more givaways than Vlasic while playing in less games

lame post
Yes your post is lame, finally we agree.

1.Demers handles the puck on the breakout WAY more than Vlasic
2. Demers get's to alot of pucks because he can skate well and isn't a sissy going back on dumped pucks.
3. I'm not referring to Vlasic's breakout passes, I'm referring to him in his zone under pressure and on the boards.
4. Vlasic was absolutely horrible the last 2 playoffs in his zone. Go watch the games and count how many times he threw the puck to nobody. Alot of the he did it without even looking! assuming he was about to get hit.

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Old
02-26-2011, 05:33 PM
  #53
ThorntonFan19
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Demers is far more valuable to the team right now. Increasingly the trend among the most successful teams has been to place a premium on two-way, puck-moving defensemen and it's no coincidence that the best teams' top 4 are comprised entirely of puck movers. Offense is a big part of a defenseman's responsibilities now and Vlasic doesn't just provide absolutely zip in that category, he detracts from the team's offensive game with his inability to advance the puck out of the zone to a teammate. His stickwork and positional play, while massively overrated by a lot of people on here, is good and probably better than Demers', but he just isn't even in the same stratosphere as Jason on the other side of the puck.
I definately dissagree with Demers being more valuable. We have Braun to fill in for Demers if we traded him. Who do we have if we trade Vlasic? Wallin?

Losing Vlasic would be a terrible idea because we dont have the depth to replace him.

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02-26-2011, 05:35 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
I definately dissagree with Demers being more valuable. We have Braun to fill in for Demers if we traded him. Who do we have if we trade Vlasic? Wallin?

Losing Vlasic would be a terrible idea because we dont have the depth to replace him.
The only reason to trade Vlasic would be for more of a two-way defenseman who can replace his minutes.

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02-26-2011, 05:45 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
The only reason to trade Vlasic would be for more of a two-way defenseman who can replace his minutes.
I just dont see why we should try and make our defense more offensive when we have Boyle, Demers, White and Braun on the team. Each pairing has a pure offensive defenseman on it. If we trade Vlasic we have only 1 solid defensive Dman in Murray.

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02-26-2011, 05:46 PM
  #56
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I like Vlasic...but I love Demers.

I'm still rooting for Vlasic to prove me wrong this post-season.


Last edited by Patty Ice: 02-27-2011 at 10:29 AM. Reason: qdp
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Old
02-26-2011, 05:52 PM
  #57
Slurms McKenzie
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keep him unless someone is grossly overpaying.

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02-26-2011, 05:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
I just dont see why we should try and make our defense more offensive when we have Boyle, Demers, White and Braun on the team. Each pairing has a pure offensive defenseman on it. If we trade Vlasic we have only 1 solid defensive Dman in Murray.
First of all, I assumed this would occur in the off-season as a move for next year when it is not assured that White will be on the team. I would not mess with the defense as currently constructed at the deadline. But to answer your question/comment, it's not necessarily about making the defense more offensive; it's about acquiring d-men who can play both ways. Look at the defense corps when healthy of Philadelphia, Vancouver and Detroit (one of those teams will assuredly win the Cup this year):

Carle--Pronger
Timonen--Coburn
Meszaros--O'Donnell

Lidstrom--Stuart
Kronwall--Rafalski
Ericsson--Salei

Edler--Ehrhoff
Hamhuis--Salo
Ballard--Bieksa

Bolded are the only blueliners who bring nothing to the table offensively, which is the category Vlasic--as well as Murray, Huskins and Wallin--falls under. The blueprint for a successful defense corps is there--six guys who are above average in their own zone while also being at least competent if not excellent and moving the puck and feeding the transition.

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Old
02-26-2011, 06:04 PM
  #59
stalockrox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
First of all, I assumed this would occur in the off-season as a move for next year when it is not assured that White will be on the team. I would not mess with the defense as currently constructed at the deadline. But to answer your question/comment, it's not necessarily about making the defense more offensive; it's about acquiring d-men who can play both ways. Look at the defense corps when healthy of Philadelphia, Vancouver and Detroit (one of those teams will assuredly win the Cup this year):

Carle--Pronger
Timonen--Coburn
Meszaros--O'Donnell

Lidstrom--Stuart
Kronwall--Rafalski
Ericsson--Salei

Edler--Ehrhoff
Hamhuis--Salo
Ballard--Bieksa

Bolded are the only blueliners who bring nothing to the table offensively, which is the category Vlasic--as well as Murray, Huskins and Wallin--falls under. The blueprint for a successful defense corps is there--six guys who are above average in their own zone while also being at least competent if not excellent and moving the puck and feeding the transition.
I've bolded the blue liners on those team that are on pace for about the same point totals as Vlasic this year...

Vlasic may not be a true two way guy but his passing / puck moving is good enough. He doesn't need to run a PP. You have to have more than one good defensive d-men.

And not all of those guys you listed are above average in their own zone.

I'm not compaing the Sharks D corps to any of those 3 teams, those are obviously among the top in the NHL but Vlasic is severely underrated around here.

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Old
02-26-2011, 06:07 PM
  #60
ThorntonFan19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
First of all, I assumed this would occur in the off-season as a move for next year when it is not assured that White will be on the team. I would not mess with the defense as currently constructed at the deadline. But to answer your question/comment, it's not necessarily about making the defense more offensive; it's about acquiring d-men who can play both ways. Look at the defense corps when healthy of Philadelphia, Vancouver and Detroit (one of those teams will assuredly win the Cup this year):

Carle--Pronger
Timonen--Coburn
Meszaros--O'Donnell

Lidstrom--Stuart
Kronwall--Rafalski
Ericsson--Salei

Edler--Ehrhoff
Hamhuis--Salo
Ballard--Bieksa

Bolded are the only blueliners who bring nothing to the table offensively, which is the category Vlasic--as well as Murray, Huskins and Wallin--falls under. The blueprint for a successful defense corps is there--six guys who are above average in their own zone while also being at least competent if not excellent and moving the puck and feeding the transition.
Stuart, Ericsson, Hamhuis and Ballard all bring a similar offensive game to Vlasics. They should be bolded aswell imo (maybe not Ballard, but he has brought no offense this season).

And lately Vlasic has been moving the puck out of the zone quite well lately. If youre worried about zero offense and bad puck movement Murray and Wallin should be your biggest concerns.

EDIT: Also, Vlasic has put 14 points up since the 1st time Buffalo played the sharks. Thats like 14 points in 35 or so games if im correct. I wouldnt say he brings "nothing" offensively.

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Old
02-26-2011, 06:08 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I've bolded the blue liners on those team that are on pace for about the same point totals as Vlasic this year...

Vlasic may not be a true two way guy but his passing / puck moving is good enough. He doesn't need to run a PP. You have to have more than one good defensive d-men.

And not all of those guys you listed are above average in their own zone.

I'm not compaing the Sharks D corps to any of those 3 teams, those are obviously among the top in the NHL but Vlasic is severely underrated around here.
The ones that you bolded are getting less PP time than Vlasic. It affects point totals. Hamhuis may be near equal with Vlasic for PP time, but it is only because of the Salo injury.

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02-26-2011, 06:11 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The ones that you bolded are getting less PP time than Vlasic. It affects point totals. Hamhuis may be near equal with Vlasic for PP time, but it is only because of the Salo injury.
Vlasic doesn't get that much PP time and has 1 pt on the PP, he really shouldn't be on it the 1st place. W/o PP time he should still be good for 20-25 pts a season, I just don't see that as a problem.

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02-26-2011, 06:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
The ones that you bolded are getting less PP time than Vlasic. It affects point totals. Hamhuis may be near equal with Vlasic for PP time, but it is only because of the Salo injury.
Vlasic logs 59 seconds of pp time each game. Hamhuis logs 1:40. If thats "near equal" then Vlasics pp TOI is "near equal" to the others he bolded.

59 seconds of pp time each game isnt that much at all.

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Old
02-26-2011, 06:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Vlasic logs 59 seconds of pp time each game. Hamhuis logs 1:40. If thats "near equal" then Vlasics pp TOI is "near equal" to the others he bolded.

59 seconds of pp time each game isnt that much at all.
I didn't track Vancouver that close nor check numbers. The injuries affected DH's PP time. He was definitely second fiddle. They were using Bieksa right behind Edler and Ehrhoff. If they are all healthy, Hamhuis drops to #5 for PP behind Salo as well. I also need to look at penalties drawn because my guess is that Vancouver is getting more PPs than SJ. SJ is way down on drawing penalties this year (that I did check). I also agree that Vlasic is pretty close to #5 for PP duty this year. When I was watching them Hamhuis was getting the same type of use as Vlasic, 2nd unit and possibly even the third unit. Coburn gets the same type of use in Philly, definitely 4th choice and possibly 5th.

BTW, I agree that Murray and Wallin are not good movers. Both are slow with the stick which is the issue with Vlasic moving the puck. Murray gets a gold star for minimizing giveaways. Vlasic has more takeaways but also more giveaways (more normal on giveaways - not outstanding, not bad). Murray gets the giveaway minimization by protecting the puck so well and being really sure.

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02-26-2011, 06:50 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I didn't track Vancouver that close nor check numbers. The injuries affected DH's PP time. He was definitely second fiddle. They were using Bieksa right behind Edler and Ehrhoff. If they are all healthy, Hamhuis drops to #5 for PP behind Salo as well. I also need to look at penalties drawn because my guess is that Vancouver is getting more PPs than SJ. SJ is way down on drawing penalties this year (that I did check). I also agree that Vlasic is pretty close to #5 for PP duty this year. When I was watching them Hamhuis was getting the same type of use as Vlasic, 2nd unit and possibly even the third unit. Coburn gets the same type of use in Philly, definitely 4th choice and possibly 5th.

BTW, I agree that Murray and Wallin are not good movers. Both are slow with the stick which is the issue with Vlasic moving the puck. Murray gets a gold star for minimizing giveaways. Vlasic has more takeaways but also more giveaways (more normal on giveaways - not outstanding, not bad). Murray gets the giveaway minimization by protecting the puck so well and being really sure.
Murray's givaways would skyrocket if he was away from Boyle. All he has to do is give Boyle the puck and he'll take care of the rest

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02-26-2011, 06:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Murray's givaways would skyrocket if he was away from Boyle. All he has to do is give Boyle the puck and he'll take care of the rest
yep - we saw that last night... drew even called out murray at one point in the 3rd.

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02-26-2011, 06:54 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
There are big questions regarding Bogo's IQ and decision-making ability that have plagued him since his draft year and have been somewhat underscored with his play so far this season--but then again he is still only 20 and playing for a very mediocre team. I would be wary of acquiring him. If they can swing it for Vlasic and a 2011 1st, that's fine but I wouldn't want to give up Setoguchi. According to Lebrun, Atlanta turned down two 1sts and a 2nd for him so clearly Dudley will be asking for the moon.
Bogo has talent but he has to have a good mentor to develop him or you are overpaying. I would rather us watch how Braun and Doherty turn out.

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02-26-2011, 06:59 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Yes your post is lame, finally we agree.

1.Demers handles the puck on the breakout WAY more than Vlasic
2. Demers get's to alot of pucks because he can skate well and isn't a sissy going back on dumped pucks.
3. I'm not referring to Vlasic's breakout passes, I'm referring to him in his zone under pressure and on the boards.
4. Vlasic was absolutely horrible the last 2 playoffs in his zone. Go watch the games and count how many times he threw the puck to nobody. Alot of the he did it without even looking! assuming he was about to get hit.
There is more to a dman than those few skills you listed.

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02-26-2011, 07:19 PM
  #69
SJeasy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Murray's givaways would skyrocket if he was away from Boyle. All he has to do is give Boyle the puck and he'll take care of the rest
He did well with Ehrhoff, but you have the same dynamic. He needs close support to have a decent chance. It may also help having Boyle for communication. I would like to see him with Braun for a bit to let us see how chemistry affects both of them.

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02-26-2011, 07:20 PM
  #70
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I'm far more surprised that many posters are discussing the roster as if this were NHL11. You can't just trade away players and get marginal upgrades and expect to have instant chemistry.

Also Demers is good, but don't get too ahead of yourselves. Vlasic is still the superior defenseman at this point and is just suffering from whipping-boy syndrome on the boards. Who's to say Demers won't have a slump next year when he's Vlasic's age (I seriously hope this never happens). Demers still makes plenty of mistakes in his own zone, but I think many posters are just too infatuated with him that they ignore it.

There's still a good 3-4 years before you have to worry about Vlasic finding his game. It's too soon to dismiss or overly praise either of them, and there's far more a defenseman has to do than what is being criticized.

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02-26-2011, 07:23 PM
  #71
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This poll is beginning to look like a bad football game.

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02-26-2011, 08:08 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
yep - we saw that last night... drew even called out murray at one point in the 3rd.
Which is why Murray got the same amount of minutes as Wallin - 17. Second to last among the dmen (Hamburgerz being the last).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
Bogo has talent but he has to have a good mentor to develop him or you are overpaying. I would rather us watch how Braun and Doherty turn out.
Boyle? That's 3 years of mentorship. But whatever, it aint happening.

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Old
02-26-2011, 10:38 PM
  #73
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why are we talking about vlasic in a thread about seto

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02-27-2011, 10:22 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
The good thing about Bogosian is that he has the potential to replace Boyle when retires in '14. Demers/Braun/Irwin/Petrecki/Doherty don't have that potential.
Ten years ago you would have people saying that same thing about Boyle.

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02-27-2011, 10:27 AM
  #75
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my theory is if we cant trade Seto for a legit top 4 d-man, or trade Heatley for an Epic Mealtime food, to just not trade.

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