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Chipchura - Pros and Cons

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Old
07-01-2004, 08:41 PM
  #1
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Chipchura - Pros and Cons

1. Kyle Chipchura.

The most obvious pro is that the guys was ranked as the top North American prospect the first half of the year, then sustained a nagging groin injury which may have been to blame for his mediocre second half. If that is the case and he can come back to score 100 points in junior next season, the Habs have a player. Chipchura seems very mature for his age and his on ice game is mature as well. He has good size and by all accounts is a great effort player.

On the other hand, he has yet to show any offensive skill through two WHL seasons. Most players who go on to become good second and third liners were scoring stars in junior and adapted to a defensive role later on. Bob Gainey and Manny Malhotra are two of a very few exceptions to that rule, but both were great skaters. Chipchura's skating is only adequate at this point, although the groin injury may have hampered him there as well.

Long and short of it is, if he can break out offensively next year he will be a good pick. If not..........

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07-01-2004, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
1. Kyle Chipchura.

The most obvious pro is that the guys was ranked as the top North American prospect the first half of the year, then sustained a nagging groin injury which may have been to blame for his mediocre second half. If that is the case and he can come back to score 100 points in junior next season, the Habs have a player. Chipchura seems very mature for his age and his on ice game is mature as well. He has good size and by all accounts is a great effort player.

On the other hand, he has yet to show any offensive skill through two WHL seasons. Most players who go on to become good second and third liners were scoring stars in junior and adapted to a defensive role later on. Bob Gainey and Manny Malhotra are two of a very few exceptions to that rule, but both were great skaters. Chipchura's skating is only adequate at this point, although the groin injury may have hampered him there as well.

Long and short of it is, if he can break out offensively next year he will be a good pick. If not..........
So, if this gentleman went back to Jr. and only had 85 pts, was +40, led the team in PMI's, faceoffs, and was used in all situations, but didn't put up 100 points, he's a bust? I think your putting too much emphasize on points. History has shown, especially in the Q, that because a player gets 100 + points, doesn't necessarily make him a good NHLer. The same can be said for players that don't rack up 100s of points, end up being very effective NHLers. Theres more to hockey than points. We didn't draft Chipchura for his offensive talents, he brings more intangibles than just points.

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07-01-2004, 09:28 PM
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I agree with the major part of your post, except when you say Chipchura has yet to show any offensive skills. That's not true. True, he didn't put up the numbers one could have expected from a WHL first overall pick, but he sure did showcase his ability in the offensive zone. He's a very good passer, will probably become a decent playmaker and has a good scoring touch. He can quarterback a powerplay too, as he played at the blue line in his WHL team as well as in Canada's U18 team. However, he didn't get much powerplay time for Prince Albert. For the most part, he has been on the 2nd unit at center, behind Colliton... who is somewhat better offensively. When Chipchura gets the opportunity to take on #1 center duties, we'll be able to see what he can really do in the offensive zone (points wise).

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07-01-2004, 09:51 PM
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How many points the best offensive player of the Memorial cup winner team has?

When will you understand that numbers means absoluly nothing?

All depends of a ton of factors... system, coatching philosophy, ice time, injury, teammates...

I dont understand why you dont stop your pointless posts... Several posters here often proved you that you cant judge a player only by stats...

Dagenais put something like 17 goals in a few games and was something like +15... Does it means he is an effective winger? Absoluly not, Dagenais is garbage, he can thanks his linemates and Julien for having such bright stats...

Wellwood had a more productive rookie season than both Higgins ans Perezhogin... Does it means he can be compared to them as quality prospect?

So much examples to prove you how much stats mean absoluly nothing... The game gets closer and closer, even in the Junior and AHL, so you cant compare former stats to the actual ones!


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07-01-2004, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
1. Kyle Chipchura.

The most obvious pro is that the guys was ranked as the top North American prospect the first half of the year, then sustained a nagging groin injury which may have been to blame for his mediocre second half. If that is the case and he can come back to score 100 points in junior next season, the Habs have a player. Chipchura seems very mature for his age and his on ice game is mature as well. He has good size and by all accounts is a great effort player.

On the other hand, he has yet to show any offensive skill through two WHL seasons. Most players who go on to become good second and third liners were scoring stars in junior and adapted to a defensive role later on. Bob Gainey and Manny Malhotra are two of a very few exceptions to that rule, but both were great skaters. Chipchura's skating is only adequate at this point, although the groin injury may have hampered him there as well.

Long and short of it is, if he can break out offensively next year he will be a good pick. If not..........
To be the best scout you have to find the players who didn't produce now (so easy to get them) but will in the future. When I see some pÓck like Danny Stuart, Maxine Lapierre and Chris Higgins, I say Habs scouts are good to play that game.

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07-01-2004, 10:15 PM
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"100 points" is a figure of speech, obviously. Next year will be Chipchura's third WHL season. He has to average well over a point a game in order to be considered a blue chip prospect. He is a bit similar to Scott Hartnell, another top Prince Albert prospect from a few years back. Similar size, style, qualities. Hartnell had similar scring totals in his first season with P.A. (bit better), then scored over a point a game in his draft season and moved directly to the NHL as an 18 year old. But he had 82 points and led the team in scoring in his draft year, which is a far cry from Chipchura's 48 points. After four NHL seasons Hartnell has yet to get over 20 goals or 40 points in a season even though he is a valuable player to the team.

If Kyle was hampered by the injury, we might conclude that he could be a point a game player healthy. So next season he should be well over a point a game as Getzlaf and Fehr were this year to remain top prospects. If he scores around a point a game next year, he is going to have a tough time as a pro. Look at Colby Armstrong who was a tough, character type player who scored around a point a game in the WHL as an 18 and 19 year old. He is in the AHL still, scoring 30 points for the whole season. There are a pile of other guys like that, Greg Watson is another rugged ex-P.A. centreman who fits the mold. He had about 25 points in the AHL last season.

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07-01-2004, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsology
To be the best scout you have to find the players who didn't produce now (so easy to get them) but will in the future. When I see some pÓck like Danny Stuart, Maxine Lapierre and Chris Higgins, I say Habs scouts are good to play that game.
Higgins was the top scoring rookie in the ECAC and led the U.S. Junior team in scoring at the WJC the year before Montreal drafted him. You can't say he didn't show offensive potential. Lapierre and Stewert have proven nothing except that they scored more in this year in the Q than they did last year. I would be surprised if either has more than a cup of coffee in the NHL.

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07-01-2004, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Higgins was the top scoring rookie in the ECAC and led the U.S. Junior team in scoring at the WJC the year before Montreal drafted him. You can't say he didn't show offensive potential. Lapierre and Stewert have proven nothing except that they scored more in this year in the Q than they did last year. I would be surprised if either has more than a cup of coffee in the NHL.
Lapierre will have more than a cup of coffee In the NHL,the way he Is playing he could be a verry good 3 liner or maybe a 2 liner on a poor team

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07-01-2004, 10:36 PM
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I agree with db23 that next chipchura season will be interesting to follow. We will have more info about his offensive potentiel and overall play without the injury.

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07-01-2004, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Duchemin
I agree with db23 that next chipchura season will be interesting to follow. We will have more info about his offensive potentiel and overall play without the injury.
Yes for sure next season Is the most important for him,he need to show he can score some goals and is skating could be a little bit better Imo


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07-01-2004, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Future=Hossa
Yes for sure next season Is the most important for him,he need to show he can score some goals and is skating could be a little bit better Imo


###1000 post,HF ROCKS
Congatulations Future=Hossa !!! Me too I made my #1000 post today

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07-01-2004, 10:46 PM
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Congatulations Future=Hossa !!! Me too I made my #1000 post today
congratulations to you too

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07-01-2004, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Higgins was the top scoring rookie in the ECAC and led the U.S. Junior team in scoring at the WJC the year before Montreal drafted him. You can't say he didn't show offensive potential. Lapierre and Stewert have proven nothing except that they scored more in this year in the Q than they did last year. I would be surprised if either has more than a cup of coffee in the NHL.
Chipchura was 2nd in scoring at the WJC, not far from Higgins being first on his team, especially since in history Team Canada has been better than Team USA.

Offensive abilities can improve over time, and I'll use Mike Komisarek as a prime example. (I know his offensive game hasn't translated in the NHL yet, but we'll see in time)

During his draft year, Komisarek had 16 points in 41 games and was thought of as a defensive only guy. The year after, his stats went up to 30 points in 39 games, again in the NCAA. In his first year in the AHL, Komisarek got 30 points in 56 games. He added up another 9 points in 18 games this year in the AHL. Clearly, his offensive game has improved since his draft year.

Another prospect, Duncan Milroy, had tremendous stats during his draft year: 92 points in 68 games. Yet, he might not make it to the NHL and has problems even translating his game in the AHL.

I'll give you one more example about misleading stats: Steve Bernier. He had 101 points in 71 games last year (draft yeat) and this year his production dropped to 80 points in 66 games. Nevertheless, he was a much better player this year and showed much more promise as a future NHLer than the year before.

Lastly, you might want to examine the case of Patrice Bergeron. He had 73 points in 70 games in the Q (nothing really awesome in the Q), yet he was able to make the jump directly into the NHL with decent production (39 points in 71 games). Why could Bergeron do this while many other Q drafted players had better stats and are still years away from the NHL, if they ever reach it? The answer is because Bergeron had the intangibles that are needed in the NHL to succeed, regardless of the scoring touch or ability of the prospect.

With all that said, Chipchura is playing behind Jeremy Colliton (2nd rounder from last year) who got about the same number of points this year as he did (50 in 62 vs 48 in 64). The other top pointers on the team are all overagers (which gives them a big advantage). We'll see in time what he can do, but I sustain that the most important thing for a prospect is being able to adapt to the higher execution speed of the NHL than anything else. If he can do that, he'll be able to score as much in the NHL that he does in the WHL.

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07-01-2004, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smail
Chipchura was 2nd in scoring at the WJC, not far from Higgins being first on his team, especially since in history Team Canada has been better than Team USA.

Chipchura was 2nd in scoring for Team Canada, with 5 pts, but it was at the U-18's, not the U-20's. Chipchura played on the 3rd line during the tournament, whichs is great that he can be 2nd on the team in scoring while playing on the 3rd line, but a bit of a concern that he was only on the 3rd line. (although not a big deal, imo, as he seems to have been effective)

Higgins was on the U-20 team when he was 18, led the team in scoring. At 19 he was 2nd in scoring behind Parise off the top of my head.

Chipchura at 18 stands a shot at the U-20 team, although with the depth of Team Canada it will be tough to get a spot.

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07-01-2004, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by F. Duchemin
I agree with db23 that next chipchura season will be interesting to follow. We will have more info about his offensive potentiel and overall play without the injury.

Yes I'm interested in what he does next year on a solid Prince Albert team. What stuck out to me was his 2nd half. Not knowing how much the injury effected him, but he had only 2 goals over the last 20+ games of the season. Being 88th in the WHL in goals this year is not very comforting, but I dont have any idea how bad his groin injury effected him.

But it's not just about his offensive game, as he will need to improve his foot speed and skating. If he does that, he stands a good chance of being a solid 3rd-4th liner based on his defensive game and from what I hear a decent physical game along the boards and down low.

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07-01-2004, 11:58 PM
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FYI, Chipchura actually TORE his groin, a pretty severe injury and well beyond a pull, which is also painful and a bad injury for a hockey player.

His skating is a plus, not a minus. I have seen him play. Any scout that tells you his skating is a problem is incorrect, or is basing it on having watched a guy with a recently torn groin trying to skate all out.

He will at least be a third liner, and will score 40-50 points in the NHL, regularly. He can't finish too well and his release and shot are so-so, but he has excellent vision and can pass the puck better than most NHLers.

It was an excellent pick, IMO. I was afraid the Habs would take Wolski, who has "bust" written all over him.

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07-02-2004, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal
Yes I'm interested in what he does next year on a solid Prince Albert team. What stuck out to me was his 2nd half. Not knowing how much the injury effected him, but he had only 2 goals over the last 20+ games of the season. Being 88th in the WHL in goals this year is not very comforting, but I dont have any idea how bad his groin injury effected him.

But it's not just about his offensive game, as he will need to improve his foot speed and skating. If he does that, he stands a good chance of being a solid 3rd-4th liner based on his defensive game and from what I hear a decent physical game along the boards and down low.
A decent 3rd - 4th liner? Mark my words right now, he'll be much more than that.

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07-02-2004, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebooter
FYI, Chipchura actually TORE his groin, a pretty severe injury and well beyond a pull, which is also painful and a bad injury for a hockey player.

His skating is a plus, not a minus. I have seen him play. Any scout that tells you his skating is a problem is incorrect, or is basing it on having watched a guy with a recently torn groin trying to skate all out.

He will at least be a third liner, and will score 40-50 points in the NHL, regularly. He can't finish too well and his release and shot are so-so, but he has excellent vision and can pass the puck better than most NHLers.

It was an excellent pick, IMO. I was afraid the Habs would take Wolski, who has "bust" written all over him.

ISS gives Chipchura a B for skating. His foot speed seemed more of a concern then his skating, imo.

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07-02-2004, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Munchausen
A decent 3rd - 4th liner? Mark my words right now, he'll be much more than that.


I said 3rd or 4th liner based on his defensive game. If his offensive game doesn't develop and he doesn't improve his foot speed, then he still has a future in the NHL, but not on the top lines, imo.

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07-02-2004, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by montreal
ISS gives Chipchura a B for skating. His foot speed seemed more of a concern then his skating, imo.

Well, OK, just out of curiosity, what did ISS give Malkin and Wolski, both of whom have inferior foot speed to Chipchura, especially Wolski? How about Ladd?

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07-02-2004, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Freebooter
Well, OK, just out of curiosity, what did ISS give Malkin and Wolski, both of whom have inferior foot speed to Chipchura, especially Wolski? How about Ladd?
Skating

Malkin-A
Wolski-B+
Ladd-A-
Chipchura-B

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07-02-2004, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by montreal
Skating

Malkin-A
Wolski-B+
Ladd-A-
Chipchura-B
Thanks. That throws the ISS rankings' credibility into question, IMO. Chipchura's skating and foot speed are obviously and markedly better than Wolski's, if one has seen them play. Ladd is a straight ahead skater without a lot of agility.

If Malkin is an A, what the heck were Ovechkin, Lisin, and Olesz? A+++? Malkin has great skills and determination, but he is not fast, nor particularly agile.

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07-02-2004, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freebooter
Thanks. That throws the ISS rankings' credibility into question, IMO. Chipchura's skating and foot speed are obviously and markedly better than Wolski's, if one has seen them play. Ladd is a straight ahead skater without a lot of agility.

If Malkin is an A, what the heck were Ovechkin, Lisin, and Olesz? A+++? Malkin has great skills and determination, but he is not fast, nor particularly agile.

AO- A
Lisin- A+
Olesz- A-


I've seen every player you named in the last two posts except Lisin who I know is considered one of the best skaters from this draft. Him aside I think Wolski is a good skater with decent speed. Ladd I've seen little of so I really can't say although in the one game I saw he looked like a solid skater. Malkin and AO both are good skaters. I can't say Ladd is faster or a better skater then any of them with the expection of Ladd who I can't say.

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07-02-2004, 12:33 AM
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Hey Montreal, you got Chippy ranked at 7. Are you really that low on him or are you just awaiting further reports on his development? I think I just answered my own damn question.

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07-02-2004, 12:47 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Leachmeister2000
Hey Montreal, you got Chippy ranked at 7. Are you really that low on him or are you just awaiting further reports on his development? I think I just answered my own damn question.

I think 7 is a good place for him to start. I don't think that's being low on him, as he was just drafted and is a projected 3rd liner. It really doesn't mean squat where I rank him anyways, but to me he shouldn't be higher then a 7 until he showns some offensive abilities and improves his foot speed.

But I do want to see him up close which would answer some of my questions about him, and I will be following the PA raiders closely now to see how he does.

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