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How much would prime Gretzky/Lemieux produce today?

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Old
07-06-2004, 12:57 AM
  #101
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickRoy33
T.Barrasso
K.Samuelsson
U.Samuelsson
L.Murphy
P.Coffey
J.Jagr
R.Francis
M.Recchi
J. Cullen
K.Stevens
J.Mullen
B.Trottier
R.Tocchet
P.Nedved
T.Sandstrom
S.Zubov

Because all these guys sucked? Right?

Join a rumors board if your interested in what-if's and could-have-beens....the question is who's better....Gretzky....and until someone BEATS his RECORDS, there should be no discussion about it....
Not that I disagree with you on the last part, but some of the players you put down were traded for each other and never played together on a Pens team.

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Old
07-06-2004, 01:24 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickRoy33
T.Barrasso
K.Samuelsson
U.Samuelsson
L.Murphy
P.Coffey
J.Jagr
R.Francis
M.Recchi
J. Cullen
K.Stevens
J.Mullen
B.Trottier
R.Tocchet
P.Nedved
T.Sandstrom
S.Zubov

Because all these guys sucked? Right?

Join a rumors board if your interested in what-if's and could-have-beens....the question is who's better....Gretzky....and until someone BEATS his RECORDS, there should be no discussion about it....
I don't like these self-righteous proclamations. Of course there can be discussions, because there are so many variables in the sport.

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Old
07-06-2004, 02:08 AM
  #103
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I don't understand all these posters who are in love with Lemieux.

Every single stat you look at and Gretzky is superior. He was the best player in the league as an 18 year old with a very weak supporting cast.
9 out of the top 11 highest point seasons in NHL history are held by Gretzky.

When you look at this objectively there is no doubt who is better. I guarantee most of the people who don't show Gretzky the respect he deserves are under the age of 25. With Gretzky it really doesn't matter how big he was; he was impossible to hit. That wouldn't change today.

Lemieux had players equally good or better to play with than Gretzky IMO.

Gretzky will always be considered better than Lemieux. He truly is "the great one".

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07-06-2004, 02:53 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stockwizard
I don't understand all these posters who are in love with Lemieux.

Every single stat you look at and Gretzky is superior. He was the best player in the league as an 18 year old with a very weak supporting cast.
9 out of the top 11 highest point seasons in NHL history are held by Gretzky.

When you look at this objectively there is no doubt who is better. I guarantee most of the people who don't show Gretzky the respect he deserves are under the age of 25. With Gretzky it really doesn't matter how big he was; he was impossible to hit. That wouldn't change today.

Lemieux had players equally good or better to play with than Gretzky IMO.

Gretzky will always be considered better than Lemieux. He truly is "the great one".
Lemieux played about half as many games as Gretzky has.

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Old
07-06-2004, 03:54 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
I don't like these self-righteous proclamations. Of course there can be discussions, because there are so many variables in the sport.
Variables are for people with self-doubt and wishful thinking....facts and records are for those content with the truth....

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07-06-2004, 04:06 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Not that I disagree with you on the last part, but some of the players you put down were traded for each other and never played together on a Pens team.
True, and Gretzky could only be on the ice with 4 other players as well....no matter who was on the bench....or who hadn't been traded for....

Best case for Gretzky's side of the argument? Bernie Nicholls....from average Joe to incredible goal scorer....70????....from a guy who hadn't broken the 40 goal mark in 3 years, and never to even break the 30 goal plateau after his next season, which he had 75 pts in 47 games when he was traded to the Rangers....aside from Robitaille who hardly EVER, (unless it was power play time), played on Gretzky's line, who else did he have as a supporting cast during his stay in Los Angeles?

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07-06-2004, 04:07 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickRoy33
Variables are for people with self-doubt and wishful thinking....facts and records are for those content with the truth....
My point is that the facts and records still paint a rather limited picture in this field.

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07-06-2004, 04:13 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly311
Lemieux played about half as many games as Gretzky has.

K, ONE-TIME only, for the "what-if'ers"....

Lemieux: 889 games 1701 pts
Gretzky: 1487 games 2857 pts

Lemieux averages 1.8 points per game....multiply that times the difference in the amount of games played (598) and you get 1076....

1701+1076= 2777

2857 > 2777

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Old
07-06-2004, 04:21 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
My point is that the facts and records still paint a rather limited picture in this field.
Limited???? Please check the names on the following trophy's:

Lady Byng (5)
Lester B. Pearson (5)
Art Ross (10)
Hart Memorial (9)
Stanley Cup (4)
Conn Smythe (2)

That's not LIMITED, thats WINNING....Lemieux had his fair share of trophy's, but Gretzky was dominant on all fronts....PLAYOFFS, CANADA CUPS, TROPHY'S, RECORDS....

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07-06-2004, 04:40 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickRoy33
K, ONE-TIME only, for the "what-if'ers"....

Lemieux: 889 games 1701 pts
Gretzky: 1487 games 2857 pts

Lemieux averages 1.8 points per game....multiply that times the difference in the amount of games played (598) and you get 1076....

1701+1076= 2777

2857 > 2777

he would have averaged more than 1.8 points a game in the 3 years he missed plus all the time he missed during his prime.

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Old
07-06-2004, 10:04 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly311
Lemieux played about half as many games as Gretzky has.
Doesn't matter.

Say we ignore the career totals and just look at single seasons and per-game basis. Wayne still wins, hands down. Like noted, 9 of the 11 best seasons of all-time belong to Wayne. Including the best 4. You can't name a single-season record that Wayne doesn't hold. Regular season or play-off.

Look at per-game then. That takes out the difference in games played and dictates 'who would win' if they did play the same number. Wayne still wins.

Now here is the kicker... Wayne has played more games in the "defensive" era and more games over the age of 33 that have diluted his once dominant lead over Mario. Mario is the one who actually has his stats 'padded' more from the high-scoring 80's and early 90's. He played a greater percentage of his games then over Wayne. Wayne also has a greater % of his games played over the age of 33 than Mario. Had Mario not sat out 3+ seasons of his golden years, the gap would be even wider. People don't seem to realize that Mario has actually lost ground on Wayne (in the per-game numbers) each and every game he has played from 1996 on. If Wayne sat between the ages of 33-36, it wouldn't even be close.

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Old
07-06-2004, 10:10 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly311
he would have averaged more than 1.8 points a game in the 3 years he missed plus all the time he missed during his prime.
I would take that bet all the way to the bank.

Mario didn't average 1.8 in his final season before the comback, and never did afterwards. Chances of him doing so for the three he missed are virtually non-existent.

Like noted before, if you take out 3 years of Waynes career between 33 and 36, he never momentarily loses the per-game crown to Mario.

Those missed seasons late in Mario's career actually help his cause, not hurt it.

As for games in his prime, that swings both ways. You do realize that Wayne also battled back problems for much of his career? From 1991 on, it was a constant struggle. He missed time as well. Had he not been hit by Suter, who knows how many more points he would have racked up. Topping well over 3000 is a conservative estimate.

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Old
07-06-2004, 10:14 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Hockey
I take nothing away from the Great Gretzky. He and Orr are the the two best players after Mario. I wish Mario would have had the cast, and health Wayne had. It would have been amazing.
Come on. It wasn't like Mario was a man alone.

Francis, Jagr, Murphy, Stevens, Rechhi, Coffey and Tochett are not that different than Kurri, Lowe, Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Tikanen.

Both players had great casts around them.

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Old
07-06-2004, 11:27 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw
''I do not think it is a stretch to say Gretzky might not even hit 100 points in today's day. It's a different game though, for better or for worse.''

So... what you're saying is, in today's NHL, a 25 year old Gretzky with a healthy back, on a good team, would only be good for 3-10 more points than a 37 year old ailing Gretzky on the Rangers? Yes, '98 was super low scoring, and he put up 90 points.

Interesting. Why do you think Prime Wayne was only a few points better than Old Wayne?

You can count on less than one hand the amount of players that scored more than Wayne.

Wow, I mean, geez... do you people think that over the course of a few years, hockey players suddenly evolved into supersoldiers? Wayne already dominated ''today's NHL'', and fared much better in the playoffs than Mario. 55 goal pace in the playoffs (not wimpy regular season) at the start of the defensive revolution, as a greybeard.
Actually, Gretz late in his career wasn't THAT much worse than he was. Mind you the stats look different, but that's to be expected.

Also, even in 1997-98, it was a different game to now. Even moreso size and defensive postures and goaltending has been advanced.

I think a lot of people here saying that anyone who doesn't think Gretz would put up 150 points+ nowadays haven't watched Gretz need to go watch some of these older games on tapes or ESPN Classics or whatever. Some of the goals Gretz scored (quite routinely) just do not happen today.

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Old
07-06-2004, 11:31 AM
  #115
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In a full 82 game season in their prime i'd say Gretzky- 135-145 points Lemieux- 120-130, Lemieux leading goal scorer and gretzky leading points and assists.

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Old
07-06-2004, 11:50 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reilly311
he would have averaged more than 1.8 points a game in the 3 years he missed plus all the time he missed during his prime.
K, just to clear this misconception up....

I took the difference between games played (GP), and a regular season (82), and added the games missed together.

Lemieux= 669
Gretzky= 163

Now, take those numbers and multiply them by their average points per game, using Gretzky's CAREER number and using Lemieux's "PROJECTED" number....never mind Wayne averaged 2.+ points per game in about 69 of the missed 163 games....

Lemieux= 669 (games missed) X 2.19 PPG = 1,463 pts
Gretzky= 163 (games missed) X 1.9 PPG = 310 pts

Lemieux= 1701 + 1463 = 3164
Gretzky= 2857 + 310 = 3167

Any more "phantom" questions????

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Old
07-06-2004, 02:14 PM
  #117
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''Actually, Gretz late in his career wasn't THAT much worse than he was. Mind you the stats look different, but that's to be expected.''

Nice logic. But for me, 10-12 years past his prime with a very sore back, his slower skating, being on a horrid team with NO adequately complimentary linemates, that adds up to far far more than 3-10 lost points. With 90 points, heck, he was in on almost half their goals, probably.

''Also, even in 1997-98, it was a different game to now. Even moreso size and defensive postures and goaltending has been advanced.''

Oh yeah, it was quite a revolution. How many goals per game were there this year? 5.1? How many in 98? 5.2? Guys are monsters compared to back then... like, 6'2 average compared to 6'1.5''.

''I think a lot of people here saying that anyone who doesn't think Gretz would put up 150 points+ nowadays haven't watched Gretz need to go watch some of these older games on tapes or ESPN Classics or whatever. Some of the goals Gretz scored (quite routinely) just do not happen today.''

Obviously, we've already established and agreed upon that fact a LONG time ago in the thread. None of us, even his biggest supporters, believe he'd be the top goal scorer in the league, or that all of those goals would go in. Which is why he would have adjusted his game towards more of a playmaker, and compensate for the changes. And that's exactly what he did as the game changed, routinely leading the league in assists (only injury prevented him from doing it in '99, I bet). Winning the assist race while playing with guys like Adam Graves, Kevin Stevens, and Niklas Sundstrom couldn't have been easy. Granted, he had Kovalev occasionally, but that guy was so out of it he was lucky to pot 20 a year back then... kind of like today. ;-)


Last edited by revolverjgw: 07-06-2004 at 04:06 PM.
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07-06-2004, 02:56 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolverjgw
''Actually, Gretz late in his career wasn't THAT much worse than he was. Mind you the stats look different, but that's to be expected.''

Nice logic. But for me, 10-12 years past his prime with a very sore back, his slower skating, being on a horrid team with NO adequately complimentary linemates, that adds up to far far more than 3-10 lost points. With 90 points, heck, he was in on almost half their goals, probably.

''Also, even in 1997-98, it was a different game to now. Even moreso size and defensive postures and goaltending has been advanced.''

Oh yeah, it was quite a revolution. How many goals per game were there this year? 5.1? How many in 98? 5.2? Guys are monsters compared to back then... like, 6'2 average compared to 6'1.5''.

''I think a lot of people here saying that anyone who doesn't think Gretz would put up 150 points+ nowadays haven't watched Gretz need to go watch some of these older games on tapes or ESPN Classics or whatever. Some of the goals Gretz scored (quite routinely) just do not happen today.''

Obviously, we've already established and agreed upon that fact a LONG time ago in the thread. None of us, even his biggest supporters, believe he'd be the top goal scorer in the league, or that all of those goals woud go in. Which is why he would have adjusted his game towards more of a playmaker, and compensate for the changes. And that's exactly what he did as the game changed, routinely leading the league in assists (only injury prevented him from doing it in '99, I bet). Winning the assist race while playing with guys like Adam Graves, Kevin Stevens, and Niklas Sundstrom couldn't have been easy. Granted, he had Kovalev occasionally, but that guy was so out of it he was lucky to pot 20 a year back then... kind of like today. ;-)
If Wayne Gretzky played today in his prime, and "wanted" to win the goal scoring title, I have no doubt in my mind that he would do it.

People keep harping about some of the easy goals he scored, and you know what, back then we all harped that he got easy and lucky goals. Fact is that is part of his mystic, he had an uncanny nack for getting the puck in the net. Heck, the guy could fake out goalies with his eyes, he was that uncanny. They never knew what to expect.

Let me ask you this, why didn't every player score those easy goals?

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07-06-2004, 04:27 PM
  #119
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I do agree that Wayne COULD win a Richard. It wouldn't be like 1982... ''he's got 50 goals before anyone else got 30!''... he wouldn't own the trophy every year... but he'd definitely find a way to put the puck in the net, and I've got no doubt he'd a CONTENDER every year for the goal lead. But I see him more as a 40-50 goal man, in an average year, with an occasional Richard... and an OBSCENE amount of assists.

I put more stock in his passing game... whoever he played with would be the luckiest man in sports. Let's say Wayne get's drafted by Atlanta next year... wouldn't be long before you'd see Kovalchuk racking up 70-80 goal years. Wayne would get his goals, too, but his assist totals, even in his late 30's, is what always blew me away.

Some of those ''weak'' goals he had back then against poorly equipped goalies... he'd adjust to today's Michelin Men by dishing it off, trying something new. It's not like you can just SUBTRACT all those goals just because goalies are better... he'd still have the opportunity, ability and vision to make something of those plays. If he knew he couldn't go five hole on a particular move like yesteryear... big deal, guy's got eyes in the back of his head, and on the side. There are more options available. He'd improvise, or not even TRY to get in position for those moves... different gameplan.

They couldn't stop him in the playoffs a few years ago when he shot the lights out, I'm sure he could be a sniper in the regular season after you pare some wear and tear from his body.

It would also be fun to see prime Wayne and Mario in the 4 on 4 overtimes... won't see many ties for their teams.

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07-06-2004, 07:19 PM
  #120
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If Gretzky and Mario were in their primes and playing on teams with some talent see numbers similar to this IMO:

Gretzky
82 games - 61 goals - 111 assists - 172 points

Lemieux
71 games - 57 goals - 81 assists - 138 points

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07-06-2004, 08:47 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Actually, Gretz late in his career wasn't THAT much worse than he was..
Actually, you would be completely WRONG! Wayne REALLY, REALLY was THAT much worse than he used to be.

Actually, the magic was gone from Wayne's magic wand by the time the '96 World Cup came around. There was a painful moment of realization for me and the world that this was so when Wayne could not convert the last minute scoring chance to tie up the game against the US in the the final game that he used to do routinely. He set it up perfectly and was struggling and hustling desparately to be in the perfect position to bury the puck and once again write that fairy-tale ending that the whole nation of hockey had experienced over and over again but he just couldn't do it.

Wayne was never what you would call a speedster on his skates with his hunched over, awkward skating style of his and all. However, he was always fast enough and deceptively at that...but you saw just how much he had slowed down by the time that Canada Cup came around in '96. And remember, it was way back in the '93 Stanley Cup playoffs (full 3 years before the Canada Cup and 6 years before his retirement in 99) that Bob McKenzie's remark about Gretzky being washed up and was skating like he had a piano on his back...which fired up Gretz to come out the next night and get a hat trick and add an assist against the Doug Gilmour led Leafs who were playing some amazing hockey themselves.

Gretzky was able to not only survive but excel in the NHL despite his small size and slowness of foot because he was able to see two, three seconds ahead of the play and went to where the puck was GOING TO BE instead of going after the puck and chasing it around like all the other players. This is what Wally had taught him. Don't go where the puck is but where it will be. The same principle applied in avoiding checks. He was so elusive not because he was fast or slippery but because he was able to always be a couple of steps ahead of everybody. This is partially what I mean when I say that he was always thinking and playing the game on another level...however, after that cross check hit from behind by that little @#$@ Gary Suter in '91, he wasn't able to move the way he once used to. As Bob McKenzie (I think that it was him again) called it, Wayne was doggin' it by the time '93 playoffs came around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
I think a lot of people here saying that anyone who doesn't think Gretz would put up 150 points+ nowadays haven't watched Gretz need to go watch some of these older games on tapes or ESPN Classics or whatever. .
I don't think that watching a couple of ESPN classics or the highlights from his Ultimate Gretzky is going to capture what really went on...so no, I don't think that anyone is telling you to go watch some of these older games on tapes or ESPN Classics or whatever...and from the descriptions of the plays that you mentioned, it seems pretty obvious that you just saw some of his important mile stone goals like when he scored 50 in 39 and so on. What you don't know is that those easy goals as you call them were only so because some of them had the goalie pulled or they were on extra strength when Gretz got some of those records that they show over and over again.

But more importantly, being a good ole Canadian boy, he didn't hot dog very much...unlike some of the kids today...mind you there were odd times that he pumped his fist as he skated by the opposing teams bench but as soon as he did that, he got a whole slew of fan mails from mothers all across Canada saying that it wasn't a good example for the kids...so he didn't do it too often. If you didn't know, we as Canadians are modest folk who really appreciate humility. That's the reason why guys like Don Cherry go off when young punks like Kovalchuk hot dogs and try to embarrass his opponents without a cause. And that's also one of the reasons why Don Cherry loves Bobby Orr so much. Now here was a guy who was grounded. When Bobby scored, even if it was one of his patented end to end rushes, he would 1) put the puck in the net, 2) put his head down as if he's done something wrong and 3) go sit down. This is a quintessential Canadian attitude and as such, Wayne did not go out of his way to razzle dazzle unncessarily but just found the most efficient and often innovative way to put the biscuit in the basket.

As Mike Liut, who'll forever be that guy who was hugging the post waiting for a wrap around but instead had the puck flipped over the top of the net and hit the back of his head before trickling in...or how he would be on a break away then shoot the puck wide of the net and while the crowd let out a sigh of dissappointment and with the goalie was out of position, he would then receive the bouncing puck back onto his stick and score an easy goal. ONly then would the goalie and the crowd realize that he had actually used the end boards as his 6th man to set him up on an easy goal just as Wally had taught him all those years ago. How about scoring mulitple goals off of the face off circle? And how about when Brad Richards goes behind the net to set up a rushing d-man, where do you think that came from? Actually, this one came from Bobby Clarke as Wayne admitted copying Clarke but Wayne was the on that perfected it. I've also witnessed Wayne flip the puck way up in the air and bat it in baseball style to score a goal before...and many a goal was banked off of many defenders' sprawled out butts who were turned inside out and laying on the ice while trying to contain Wayne and his special hockey sense.

He simply found best ways to score goals and they were often of the WOW, I've never seen anyone do that before variety. But he also scored those clutch goals that you can only score from working hard and driving to the net. The important thing is that you don't have to be flashy to be a winner. Look at Brandon Shannahan, especially about 10 years ago. If you had to be flashy to be good, then Mariusz Czerkawski would be one of the greatest goal scores and Billy Ranford (who by the way was Jimmy Criag behind the mask in the movie Miracle) would be the greatest goalie ever instead of Patrick Roy...cos he sure looked pretty saving some real easy shots! To be truthful, Wayne was never a top end penalty shot shooter...this is one thing that I'd take Pepe Lepeeux over Wayne any day of the week...this is one of the reason why that Knuckle head Marc Crawford didn't select him in Nagano...but when it counted, no one would come through like Wayne...which is why it was sooooo frustrating that Crawford picked someone even worse than Wayne for the shoot out in Ray Bourque...I mean this guy was a friggin' defenseman!!!!!

Anyways, going back to good breakaway shooter, here is a good illustration of what I'm trying to say. Jagr makes b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l moves before scoring...and I can't say that I remember Jagr ever missing a penalty shot or a breakaway contest at All-star weekends...but then again, Joe Sakic doesn't make those b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l moves but I can't remember him missing any penalty shots or breakaways either. Same thing. Wayne Gretzky scored...and scored more than anyone else in history...as Howie Meeker once pointed out, most people say what a great set up man Wayne Gretzky is but they forgot that this guy is the greatest scoring machine that has ever walked on the face of the planet!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Some of the goals Gretz scored (quite routinely) just do not happen today.
I disagree with you here as well. The reason why it looked so routine was that Wayne's ability to be two seconds ahead of everybody meant that he just had SOOOOOO much time, unmolested to score so many of his goals that it just looked so routine and not special!!! I saw a real good illustartion of this during this year's Montreal series against Tampa. This is kinda like how Koivu works so hard to score his goal or his assist but Kovalev hardly moves or moves very, very slowly or minimally to get the same kind of chance...as talented as Koivu is, much of that comes because he tries so hard. It was pretty apparent that Kovalev is so much more naturally gifted that it was like he was seeing everything in slow mo and only has to react to it ever so slightly to have the same effect as Koivu doggedly working his butt off! Now just imagine how great Kovalev would be if he was made up of the same stuff as that Montreal's little Captain Courageous!!! The point is, Wayne was just SOOOOOOOOOOO much ahead of everyone else that things looked unreasonably easy.

If you had only seen those games as they were happening with all the things that were going on at the time as its context, instead of just watching it some 20 years later with your attention half on TV, you would know what I am talking about.


As for someone's comment about Gretz whining, Gretz did whine...but not too often. I can only remember once that he did. Wayne was actually one of those individuals who never complained but just went about doing his thing...sort of like Ray Bourque and sort of like my wife who has every reason to complain because I'm spending so much time in front of my PC these last few days!!! Heck, as much as he hated to go there, he even went to Sault Ste. Marie as a young teenager just because Wally told him that for people like him, it doesn't matter what hands their dealt with...they always come out on top..or something like that...unlike some of the other whiners like Eric Lindros who whined and complained and didn't even put on the jerseys of the teams that drafted him because he didn't feel like it.

On the other hand, that Whiner in Pittsburg made a career out of WHINING! He whined that he was being clutched. He whined that his back hurt. He whined that NHL was a garbage league...then when the league called him on it, he changed it to a 'garage league', he whine that he didn't get the Hart when he deserved it and gave it to Wayne because the media loves him...he actually cried at the '89 (I think) NHL awards ceremony because of this...Imagine, a grown man, literally crying in public!!! You know, if you dig in to the man that is Mario Lemieux, there is a lot that you'll find that you won't like...but that's another story.

And the only reason why he's still playing is because of money. His franchise is eating up all his money and he needs a circus clown to fill the arena...so he came back after saying he's retiring and never playing again because NHL won't let him play the way he wants to play. He then realized that his only stat that was better than Wayne's, his padded points per game stats were being damaged so he started only playing against pathetic teams like Atlanta (pre-Heatley and Kovalchuk) and Nashville and other bottom feeders of the league claiming that his back needed rest. And the he found another clown to pack in his arena by exploiting a 18 year old kid to make money...and in the process shattering the confidence of and quite possibly destroying beyond repair, the most naturally gifted goal tender that has ever played the game in young Marc Andre-Fleury!


The Wayner and the Whiner are head and shoulders above anyone else that played during the '80's and the 90's...this is without a doubt, but there are many, many differences in the make up of the two indivuals that make one the greatest hockey player that ever lived and has the credentials as well as the life that he lived to back it up while the other one was well...whining that he couldn't be great because the others didn't want him to be.

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07-06-2004, 09:48 PM
  #122
Til the End of Time
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And the only reason why he's still playing is because of money. His franchise is eating up all his money and he needs a circus clown to fill the arena...so he came back after saying he's retiring and never playing again because NHL won't let him play the way he wants to play. He then realized that his only stat that was better than Wayne's, his padded points per game stats were being damaged so he started only playing against pathetic teams like Atlanta (pre-Heatley and Kovalchuk) and Nashville and other bottom feeders of the league claiming that his back needed rest. And the he found another clown to pack in his arena by exploiting a 18 year old kid to make money...and in the process shattering the confidence of and quite possibly destroying beyond repair, the most naturally gifted goal tender that has ever played the game in young Marc Andre-Fleury!
Your whole book on Gretzky is fine and dandy. But you obviously have some sort of bias against Lemieux.

Your arguement saying that he only played against bad teams since his comeback to help his PPG is simply not true. He has avoided back-to-back games, regardless of the team the Pens were playing.

He played 43 games in his comeback season, when Kovalchuk and Heatley were not on ATL. But in the three season since then, Kovalchuk and Heatley have both been in ATL. So your arguement saying Lemieux has only played "against pathetic teams like Atlanta (pre-Heatley and Kovalchuk)" since his comeback is simply false. You don't have to make stuff up to bash Lemieux.

As far as Lemieux "exploiting" Fleury... MAF was by far the Pens best goalie in training camp. They had no choice but to keep him in Pittsburgh. It is easy now to look back and say that they should have sent him back to CB, but hindsight is 20/20.

Besides, Fleury only played 21 games before being sent back to CB anyway. So if the "whiner" wanted to keep exploiting another "clown," why didn't MAF spend the whole year with the Pens?

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07-07-2004, 01:45 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time
Your arguement saying that he only played against bad teams since his comeback to help his PPG is simply not true. He has avoided back-to-back games, regardless of the team the Pens were playing.
In 02-03 he played 67 games, 37 against lesser teams:

NY Islanders: 4 (4)
NY Rangers: 3 (6)
Montreal: 4 (9)
Columbus: 1 (0)
Washington: 2 (3)
Atlanta: 4 (7)
Buffalo: 2 (6)
Florida: 3 (3)
Nashville: 2 (0)
Phoenix: 2 (0)
Carolina: 3 (3)
San Jose: 2 (5)
Los Angeles: 2 (5)
Boston: 3 (5)

37 games= 56 points vs lesser teams
30 games= 35 points vs winning teams

Looks like a diminishing point total to me....


Last edited by PatrickRoy33: 07-07-2004 at 01:49 AM.
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07-07-2004, 08:09 AM
  #124
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Why stats isnt good to evalute prospect and its the only thing we watch when we compare Gretzky and Lemieux.

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07-07-2004, 08:12 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickRoy33
In 02-03 he played 67 games, 37 against lesser teams:

NY Islanders: 4 (4)
NY Rangers: 3 (6)
Montreal: 4 (9)
Columbus: 1 (0)
Washington: 2 (3)
Atlanta: 4 (7)
Buffalo: 2 (6)
Florida: 3 (3)
Nashville: 2 (0)
Phoenix: 2 (0)
Carolina: 3 (3)
San Jose: 2 (5)
Los Angeles: 2 (5)
Boston: 3 (5)

37 games= 56 points vs lesser teams
30 games= 35 points vs winning teams

Looks like a diminishing point total to me....
Lesser teams = more goals
winnig teams = less goals

It's logic.

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