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what more does Hudler have to do for people here to think he is worth his contract?

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Old
03-02-2011, 12:30 PM
  #51
Roy S
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Hudler basically has an opportunity to take over a Homer-like role from here on out if he keeps producing. He'll be attached at Pavel's hip at ES and as a result, he's going to spend a lot of time in the offensive zone. This will minimize a lot of his defensive shortcomings and highlight his strengths. He'll also always have his role on the PP, though that isn't as clearly defined as Homer's is/was. Like Homer, though, I doubt he's going to be trusted on the ice defending a lead late in the game and someone else will take his shifts on that line to close the game out.

The problem with that is Hudler's point totals will skyrocket next season if he's on Pavel's line the majority of the season and his salary demands in FA will also increase. Though, for this season and next year, I expect him to be a valuable offensive player for us in that defined role.

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03-02-2011, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nope. I don't think he ever belonged there. I think D-Z could have had devereaux there, and still had similar numbers
That's no knock on Homer, who has always had value as PP specialist.
But I think the trick for this team was finding a place to put home at 5-on-5. Being with Datsyuk and Zetterberg gave him cover at even strength.
Who on the roster would have "belonged" there? I'm trying to figure out your definition of "belong" in this context, because I don't think it's the same as mine.

Homer was the perfect complement for Hank and Dats for several years, imo. Even at 5v5. A guy who doesn't possess the puck as part of his game, who's good at digging pucks out of the corners and off the boards, and who knows what Hank and Dats are up to and can very capable feed them the puck in the O-zone. And that last point is why I don't think Devereaux or "anyone" would have necessarily made the same difference. Not everyone thinks the game close enough to how Dats and Hank think it to keep up with them.

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03-02-2011, 07:38 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Who on the roster would have "belonged" there? I'm trying to figure out your definition of "belong" in this context, because I don't think it's the same as mine.

Homer was the perfect complement for Hank and Dats for several years, imo. Even at 5v5. A guy who doesn't possess the puck as part of his game, who's good at digging pucks out of the corners and off the boards, and who knows what Hank and Dats are up to and can very capable feed them the puck in the O-zone. And that last point is why I don't think Devereaux or "anyone" would have necessarily made the same difference. Not everyone thinks the game close enough to how Dats and Hank think it to keep up with them.
Anyone is the perfect companion for Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

It's like the Sedins in Vancouver. You give someone 10 games with them, and they start looking like they belong.

With Homer, at 5-on-5 the only thing I ask is that he stay the hell out of the way and try not to give away the puck. And again, Homer is average, at best, at digging out the puck. Ive seen him do it well. But I've also seen him lose a ton of battles on the boards.

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03-02-2011, 07:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
Hudler basically has an opportunity to take over a Homer-like role from here on out if he keeps producing. He'll be attached at Pavel's hip at ES and as a result, he's going to spend a lot of time in the offensive zone. This will minimize a lot of his defensive shortcomings and highlight his strengths. He'll also always have his role on the PP, though that isn't as clearly defined as Homer's is/was. Like Homer, though, I doubt he's going to be trusted on the ice defending a lead late in the game and someone else will take his shifts on that line to close the game out.

The problem with that is Hudler's point totals will skyrocket next season if he's on Pavel's line the majority of the season and his salary demands in FA will also increase. Though, for this season and next year, I expect him to be a valuable offensive player for us in that defined role.
Yeah, if he puts up 70 points playing with Datsyuk, he's gone.

But it won't be a big loss, because you can pretty much put anyone on Datsyuk's wing and their production will be good, even if the chemistry isn't great, because Datsyuk creates sooooooooo much room for linemates.

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03-02-2011, 08:17 PM
  #55
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It's no guarantee Hudler will continue to produce nearly a point per game over an entire season, though, too. The guy's gotten occasional shots at top6 play in the past, and has never really taken advantage of it. And, this season, his season is just as likely to be evening out to a career norm as it is to be showcasing what he'll be doing all season next year.

I agree, he'll most likely be gone if he produces nearly a PPG next season, but I'm still not sold that's a bridge we'll have to worry about crossing.

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03-02-2011, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nope. I don't think he ever belonged there. I think D-Z could have had devereaux there, and still had similar numbers
That's no knock on Homer, who has always had value as PP specialist.
But I think the trick for this team was finding a place to put home at 5-on-5. Being with Datsyuk and Zetterberg gave him cover at even strength.
I'm not arguing with you but out of curiosity, is that because you disagree that he was the best man in the league at carrying out his specific job? Or you disagree that his specific job was beneficial to the line?


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Yeah, if he puts up 70 points playing with Datsyuk, he's gone.

But it won't be a big loss, because you can pretty much put anyone on Datsyuk's wing and their production will be good, even if the chemistry isn't great, because Datsyuk creates sooooooooo much room for linemates.
Which other player played with Datsyuk and put up 70 points? I count one in Zetterberg and one in Hossa (although I don't remember if he played with Pav much). I don't think either of those guys are "pretty much anyone".


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03-02-2011, 09:13 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Anyone is the perfect companion for Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

It's like the Sedins in Vancouver. You give someone 10 games with them, and they start looking like they belong.
I don't agree. There are players who would never look like they "belong," with either pair. I'd say there are a lot of parts that would fit as well as Homer, but not most, and certainly not all. Seems like a strange opinion, to think that Aaron Downey would have worked just as well with D & Z as Homer did. To each their own I suppose.


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With Homer, at 5-on-5 the only thing I ask is that he stay the hell out of the way and try not to give away the puck. And again, Homer is average, at best, at digging out the puck. Ive seen him do it well. But I've also seen him lose a ton of battles on the boards.
Well, we've seen different things then. Homer isn't the best at digging pucks, but he's well above average. Loses some, wins most.

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03-02-2011, 09:21 PM
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Holmstrom has created a ton of space for Datsyuk and Z over the years. The other team cannot ignore him and that has given them a lot more room to work their magic.

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03-02-2011, 09:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I don't agree. There are players who would never look like they "belong," with either pair. I'd say there are a lot of parts that would fit as well as Homer, but not most, and certainly not all. Seems like a strange opinion, to think that Aaron Downey would have worked just as well with D & Z as Homer did. To each their own I suppose.
If you want to compare Downey to the worst Red Wings forward to skate in the last 10 years, that's fine. Personally, I think Aaron Downey, told to put his head down and go to the net, could post 10 goals, without powerplay time, given 12 minutes a night with D-Z when D-Z were at their prime.


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Well, we've seen different things then. Homer isn't the best at digging pucks, but he's well above average. Loses some, wins most.
We sure do.
Hplmstrom goes into the boards. Tap on back. Falls over. Home gets the puck. Tap his stick. Lose possesion.
Homer is an instant giveaway when he has the puck at five-on-five.
There are the exceptions. Earlier this year, he made a great play along the boards to win possession for Detroit. But I don't see Homer as good along the boards.

Truth is, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are probably our best two guys along the boards, anyway.

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03-02-2011, 09:49 PM
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Holmstrom has created a ton of space for Datsyuk and Z over the years. The other team cannot ignore him and that has given them a lot more room to work their magic.
Yeah. The other team focuses on Homer, the stationary guy, and don't pay attention to Datsyuk and Zetterberg, two of the world's best players.

Keep dreaming, Heaton.

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03-02-2011, 09:54 PM
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I'm not arguing with you but out of curiosity, is that because you disagree that he was the best man in the league at carrying out his specific job? Or you disagree that his specific job was beneficial to the line?
At five on five, I don't think he was very beneficial to the line. Not in a significant way.





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Which other player played with Datsyuk and put up 70 points? I count one in Zetterberg and one in Hossa (although I don't remember if he played with Pav much). I don't think either of those guys are "pretty much anyone".
Shanny had a good season with Datsyuk. Pretty sure he scored 40 goals.
I'm not saying that anyone can score 70 points. I am saying that any player who bumps from line 3 to Datsyuk's line should enjoy a significant bump in production.

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03-02-2011, 09:54 PM
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Yeah. The other team focuses on Homer, the stationary guy, and don't pay attention to Datsyuk and Zetterberg, two of the world's best players.

Keep dreaming, Heaton.
He's in front of the goal, he's tough to move, of course they'll focus on him. I don't think it's just a matter of putting any reasonably big guy there either, it requires a certain enthusiasm and specialization for the task to be good at it. There's kind of a reason why opposing coaches, players and fans hate on Holmstrom, they think his mere presence in front of the net is interference. If anyone could do it as well as he does it, he wouldn't basically be the poster child of this sort of play around the league.

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03-02-2011, 10:04 PM
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Focuses?

What? Don't make things up. I said created space.

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03-02-2011, 10:08 PM
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If you want to compare Downey to the worst Red Wings forward to skate in the last 10 years, that's fine. Personally, I think Aaron Downey, told to put his head down and go to the net, could post 10 goals, without powerplay time, given 12 minutes a night with D-Z when D-Z were at their prime.
I get to compare whoever I want to whoever I want, because you said "anyone is the perfect companion for Datsyuk and Zetterberg." I'm saying that's not the case and that Homer is a better linemate than most. And it doesn't matter how many goals you think Downey could pot with D & Z. The part that matters is how much he is helping D & Z. And I don't think Downey helps them as much as Homer.


Quote:
We sure do.
Hplmstrom goes into the boards. Tap on back. Falls over. Home gets the puck. Tap his stick. Lose possesion.
Homer is an instant giveaway when he has the puck at five-on-five.
There are the exceptions. Earlier this year, he made a great play along the boards to win possession for Detroit. But I don't see Homer as good along the boards.
At the height of DZH.... Homer falls sometimes along the boards. Yet, somehow, he rarely loses the puck. He often gets right back up and then dishes it to a teammate. But when he is positioned correctly, while in a board battle, he is pretty strong on his skates.

He's not as good as he was, I'd agree with that. But I'm talking about the height of DZH.


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Truth is, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are probably our best two guys along the boards, anyway.
Maybe, but I'd rather have them doing what they do best to create offense. If they have a linemate who can dig for them, that's very beneficial. Kind of like Kesler digging for the Sedins when he's played with them. Frees them up to create more scoring opportunities.

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03-02-2011, 10:10 PM
  #65
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Focuses?

What? Don't make things up. I said created space.
Oh stop.
So how is that Homer creates all this space for Datsyuk and Zetterberg if the defense isn't focusing on him?

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03-02-2011, 10:17 PM
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Shanny had a good season with Datsyuk. Pretty sure he scored 40 goals.
I'm not saying that anyone can score 70 points. I am saying that any player who bumps from line 3 to Datsyuk's line should enjoy a significant bump in production.
Using Brendan ****ing Shanahan for that argument is like using Zetterberg or Hossa. Of course those guys got 70 points. I bet if Gretzky played with Datsyuk he woulda got 70+ points too.

You said if Hudler got 70 points, losing him wouldn't be a big deal. I'm saying if Hudler got 70 points you most certainly could NOT replace him with "just anybody". Sure you could replace him with Zetterberg or Hossa or Shanahan. But those guys are kind of a big deal.

You could put Ilari Filppula on a line with Datsyuk and he'd probably look the best he's ever looked in his life. But that's a whole heck of a lot different than putting up 70 points.

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03-02-2011, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Shanny had a good season with Datsyuk. Pretty sure he scored 40 goals.
I'm not saying that anyone can score 70 points. I am saying that any player who bumps from line 3 to Datsyuk's line should enjoy a significant bump in production.
While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, Shanny is a terrible example of that. The season he scored 40 goals, Dats only assisted on 4 of those goals or some ridiculous number like that. Dats didn't really play much of a role in Shanny's scoring that season.

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03-02-2011, 10:19 PM
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While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, Shanny is a terrible example of that. The season he scored 40 goals, Dats only assisted on 4 of those goals or some ridiculous number like that.
Yeah I think it was like 7-11 primary assists or something insanely low. Shanahan and Datsyuk had no chemistry and for most of the season Draper was the other winger.

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03-02-2011, 10:20 PM
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I get to compare whoever I want to whoever I want, because you said "anyone is the perfect companion for Datsyuk and Zetterberg." I'm saying that's not the case and that Homer is a better linemate than most. And it doesn't matter how many goals you think Downey could pot with D & Z. The part that matters is how much he is helping D & Z. And I don't think Downey helps them as much as Homer.
Ok, argue that way if you want. So Homer helps a bit more than Downey. Or Homer helps a bit more than whoever. It still doesn't make him important to the line's success, or even complementary. It makes him better than the least skilled guy to wear the winged wheel in 10 years.
I've watched Datsyuk and Zetterberg work their magic with Shanahan, with Hull with Cleary and Homer.
It doesn't seem to matter whose on the other side.
Like the Sedins with Anson Carter, or Alexander Burrows, or Mikeal Samuelsson.





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Homer falls sometimes along the boards. Yet, somehow, he rarely loses the puck. He often gets right back up and then dishes it to a teammate. But when he is positioned correctly, while in a board battle, he is pretty strong on his skates.

He's not as good as he was, I'd agree with that. But I'm talking about the height of DZH.
I just don't see him as being very good on the boards. I've had this discussion with people before, I suppose.




Maybe, but I'd rather have them doing what they do best to create offense. If they have a linemate who can dig for them, that's very beneficial. Kind of like Kesler digging for the Sedins when he's played with them. Frees them up to create scoring opportunities.[/QUOTE]

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03-02-2011, 10:22 PM
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Yeah I think it was like 7-11 primary assists or something insanely low. Shanahan and Datsyuk had no chemistry and for most of the season Draper was the other winger.
Which is why I said, even if there isn't good chemistry, he makes room for guys.
Both guys still finished with 80+ points while playing most of the year on the same line.

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03-02-2011, 10:26 PM
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Using Brendan ****ing Shanahan for that argument is like using Zetterberg or Hossa. Of course those guys got 70 points. I bet if Gretzky played with Datsyuk he woulda got 70+ points too.

You said if Hudler got 70 points, losing him wouldn't be a big deal. I'm saying if Hudler got 70 points you most certainly could NOT replace him with "just anybody". Sure you could replace him with Zetterberg or Hossa or Shanahan. But those guys are kind of a big deal.

You could put Ilari Filppula on a line with Datsyuk and he'd probably look the best he's ever looked in his life. But that's a whole heck of a lot different than putting up 70 points.
ve and he doesn't look like a liability.

Ok, so he plays on Datsyuk's line next year and scores 70 points.
Do you pay him like a 70-point guy?
HELL NO.

That's my point.
You let him get his money from a stupid GM and then you put Mursak up on Datsyuk's line or something.

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03-02-2011, 11:02 PM
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Ok, argue that way if you want. So Homer helps a bit more than Downey. Or Homer helps a bit more than whoever. It still doesn't make him important to the line's success, or even complementary. It makes him better than the least skilled guy to wear the winged wheel in 10 years.
I've watched Datsyuk and Zetterberg work their magic with Shanahan, with Hull with Cleary and Homer.
It doesn't seem to matter whose on the other side.
Like the Sedins with Anson Carter, or Alexander Burrows, or Mikeal Samuelsson.
That was my counter-argument to your crazy argument. My original argument was already stated. Homer brought qualities to that line that meshed really well. And that's why he was complementary. I never said he was important to the line's success (assuming we are still talking 5v5, because he was absolutely important on the PP). At 5v5, no one was important to that line's success, other than Hank and Dats themselves.

Cleary has also been complementary to that line at times. So was Hull, but he doesn't count because it was at a time when Hank and Dats were nowhere near to what they were at the height of their chemistry. Completely different circumstance. Hull helped bring them along in a way. I don't remember any 'magic' with Shanahan.

Look, Hank and Dats worked well together, regardless of who else was on their line. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. No one else was needed to make them go. I just think some players fit better than others would. What some players bring to the table is more complementary than what others bring. Homer (and Cleary) fit well because they aren't puck-possessors and they do more of the dirty work.


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03-02-2011, 11:14 PM
  #73
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I think it's silly to look at Datsyuk and Z's success together and think that saying Holmstrom added to that success is somehow taking something away from them.

McCarty added something to the Yzerman and Shanahan line, I don't think just anyone could've done the same job.

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03-02-2011, 11:58 PM
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ve and he doesn't look like a liability.

Ok, so he plays on Datsyuk's line next year and scores 70 points.
Do you pay him like a 70-point guy?
HELL NO.

That's my point.
You let him get his money from a stupid GM and then you put Mursak up on Datsyuk's line or something.
I never said anything about Hudler's paycheck. What I said was simple: If Hudler turns into a consistent 70 point player on Datsyuk's line, losing him would be a big loss. You're arguing that it won't be a big deal to swap him out for Mursak? Datsyuk is amazing but you're making it out like he wins games by himself. The current 70 point Hudler- if he stays consistent- is going to do make his line a whole lot better than it would look with Mursak in his place.

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03-03-2011, 12:01 AM
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I never said anything about Hudler's paycheck. What I said was simple: If Hudler turns into a consistent 70 point player on Datsyuk's line, losing him would be a big loss. You're arguing that it won't be a big deal to swap him out for Mursak? Datsyuk is amazing but you're making it out like he wins games by himself. The current 70 point Hudler- if he stays consistent- is going to do make his line a whole lot better than it would look with Mursak in his place.
I'm not sure that's the case.
If Datsyuk is healthy, he's going to get his points. Someone with decent offensive skills is going to get their points.

Hudler is scoring at about 65-70 point recently, right? If we lost him, would it be a giant blow to the team?
Nope.

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