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Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the hat0r thread)

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Old
03-01-2012, 01:03 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Yeah, watching the games since his return, it's very obvious to me that Green is so far ahead of every defenseman on the roster (and typically every defenseman on the ice). He sees the ice better, reads the play better, skates better, and is more skilled.

Unless you're getting an elite defenseman back, I think it'd be a huge mistake to move him. And I think it'd be an even bigger mistake to let him walk in free agency while you've got nearly $8M wrapped up in defensemen that aren't even playing (plus another $2.75M in Schultz).
Agreed. Trading Green and re-signing Wideman, as some here have suggested, would be a disaster. Of course, Green does have to stay healthy.

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03-01-2012, 01:22 PM
  #602
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I understand hating on Green that he's really injury prone, but I don't understand any hate for his actual game he's easily the Caps best defensemen and it's not close.


At this point I'd say keeping him and risking he stays healthy is a better option than trading him for scraps

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03-01-2012, 01:30 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Disagree
Fair enough!

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- He's only been fragile over the last calendar year basically.
I think he's been plenty fragile in the sense that whenever he's a bit banged up, he has seemed to lose a lot of the effectiveness.. And the kind of injuries he's had lately, you don't want to hear about them when it comes to guys that rely on their skating so much.

Quote:
- All dmen have lapses especially ones who are younger (he's having less and less of them every year)
I don't think he can really get the pass anymore for being young. And I think in last year's playoffs he's had as many lapses as in any prior year if not more. Overall, I don't think he is trustworthy enough for a top pairing guy.

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His IQ on ice is outstanding. You don't have the vision he does if not. He knows where to go with the puck.
Well, I'd say -- on the puck, he's great, off the puck, not so much.

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- He's worth every penny of his salary as long as he doesn't ask for the moon
Depends on the salary.. but if it's in the 5.5-6m multi-year range, I would have to disagree.

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- Since when has McPhee signed "the big stabilizer"?? He thought about Chara for a second but thats as close as he's come.
Well, I agree that "the big stabilizer" seems an unlikely scenario. But I'm only claiming that it is still a possibility. Maybe McPhee has an Eureka moment after another early playoff loss, maybe he gets replaced by a more ballsy GM soon, maybe circumstances just line up for a deal, who knows..

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He's worth more to the Caps than other teams especially since he probably still has the stigma of an injury prone "soft" closet winger.
Well... who knows. There are all kinds of wacky GMs out there that seem to like shiny things A LOT. I think you could argue this one both ways... but even if other teams are a bit wary, in the end it still comes down to return in absolute terms.

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03-01-2012, 02:20 PM
  #604
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artilector,

You make some fair points and I can certainly see your side (especially on the value aspects in terms of his contract and what he would garner in a trade).

No one is untouchable for the right price. If some team desperately wants him and gives us a deal we can't refuse then sure. But I can say that about any player.

I do disagree about the "youth" thing tho. I have seen strides he has made over the last couple of years in terms of play without the puck. Also Dmen take a LONG time to reach their peak compared to forwards. I think Green is still getting better.

In the end I would have no problem giving him a 6 year deal worth 6 mil per season as I think he is worth it.

I maybe in the minority but I LIKE our core of 4 "young guns". I don't think we have surrounded them with the right complimentary players tho and I don't mean the expensive kind of players either.

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03-01-2012, 03:05 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
artilector,

You make some fair points and I can certainly see your side (especially on the value aspects in terms of his contract and what he would garner in a trade).

No one is untouchable for the right price. If some team desperately wants him and gives us a deal we can't refuse then sure. But I can say that about any player.

I do disagree about the "youth" thing tho. I have seen strides he has made over the last couple of years in terms of play without the puck. Also Dmen take a LONG time to reach their peak compared to forwards. I think Green is still getting better.

In the end I would have no problem giving him a 6 year deal worth 6 mil per season as I think he is worth it.

I maybe in the minority but I LIKE our core of 4 "young guns". I don't think we have surrounded them with the right complimentary players tho and I don't mean the expensive kind of players either.
Yeah, no problem, I understand where you're coming from, just having a healthy discussion..

And since it seems that the Caps will most likely re-sign Green to a multi-year deal, I certainly hope that your assessment is correct.

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03-01-2012, 07:28 PM
  #606
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lets just look at drew daughty, tyler myers, pk subban and john carlson. lets look at erik karlsson next season and see how he is.

young defensemen that become a primary player in a team's success early on become a disproportionate target immediately afterward. i think if you compare green's career arc to those players above you will see that his highs excede there's while their lows excede green's.

the value of wideman is that he allows green to play 20 rather than 30 minutes in big games and allows carlson not to be forced back into a major role while his game and confidence is a little fragile. it also allows orlov to be a rookie.

reference also this talk about how long it really takes defensemen to fully establish a consistant game and you will see why i caution the enthusiasum about the "emergence" of orlov. he is going to be great, but he is also going to need some time to grow.

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03-01-2012, 07:54 PM
  #607
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McPhee (or whoever the next GM is gonna be) is in a bind. I have no idea what the "smart" move is here.

I don't think his body can handle the NHL, he disappears in the postseason and he's never played his best defense and his best offense simlutaneously -it seems to be an either/or proposition.

His trade value isn't as high as it should be and he's never going to be an RFA again, so you either go short term and and get burned if he plays well or go long term and get burned if he breaks. I'd say there's even odds of him excelling and breaking, so you're pretty much screwed both ways.

Brutal.

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03-01-2012, 07:56 PM
  #608
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I think the Caps only option is to try to get Green for 2 years or more and see if he and his agent are willing to be reasonable on the cost.

He's by far the best player we have on the blueline. Get the guy a quality mentor on the blueline please though...

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03-01-2012, 09:05 PM
  #609
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whats reasonable?

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03-01-2012, 09:41 PM
  #610
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A small discount? It's probably unlikely, maybe he resigns at the same price.

I'd like another 2 year sample before deciding to cut ties or extend him for a big $$ deal.

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03-01-2012, 09:42 PM
  #611
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To Detroit please.

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03-01-2012, 09:43 PM
  #612
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To Detroit please.
Zetterberg.

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Old
03-01-2012, 10:25 PM
  #613
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I am willing to risk that he stays healthy. He should just now be entering his physical prime. D-men, like Mike Green are very hard to find. I would guess there are about 29 other GMs who would be more than happy to take him off our hands.

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03-02-2012, 05:58 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
A small discount? It's probably unlikely, maybe he resigns at the same price.

I'd like another 2 year sample before deciding to cut ties or extend him for a big $$ deal.
a discount to the open market? i expect that. a discount from his current pay? i dont expect that. i think there is plenty of time yet this season for him to make a statement that confirms his value for the long term, though.

the caps hav had a 7 game win streak, a 4 game streak, and two 3 game streaks.
with as few games as he has played, he was in the lineup for the 7 game and most recent 3 game streaks. i dont think that's any kind of coincidence.

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03-02-2012, 07:32 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Yeah, no problem, I understand where you're coming from, just having a healthy discussion..

And since it seems that the Caps will most likely re-sign Green to a multi-year deal, I certainly hope that your assessment is correct.
True that on the discussion.

As far as Green goes you don't have to hope. I will be proven correct. The big hurdle is making the playoffs this year. They get in and they will crucial the upsets big time and Green will be a major factor.

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03-02-2012, 07:36 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
I am willing to risk that he stays healthy. He should just now be entering his physical prime. D-men, like Mike Green are very hard to find. I would guess there are about 29 other GMs who would be more than happy to take him off our hands.
The last one like him was Brian Leetch who is VERY comprable as a player.

They both had (have) great vision and skating. Both capable of scoring with a sweet wrister or slapshot. Both with sweet stickhandling and can lead the rush or follow up.

Leetch was every bit as questionable in his own zone as Green was earlier on.

I give Green the edge on physical play tho.

The big difference? Leetch had Buekeboom and after that Samuelsson riding shotgun with him.

Green has had Shamo and Schultz....

Now that Schultz is upping his game I think we will see even more out of Green.

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03-02-2012, 07:55 AM
  #617
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I too think Sarge being aggressive can be huge for Green's game. I had wanted to see Alzner Green since oh draft day, but think Sarge being now more physical than Karl may be a fine pairing with Green. I saw it last game, Sarge came over and manned up on someone that in their past pairings over years and years, would have had an easy double on Green. Sarge manning his empty zone, not burning a calorie.

I hope JJ keeps encouraging Sarge to get over to Green under pressure and friggin battle. All the top players need to be supported in every way possible, for opponents key on the top players. You can't stand and watch. Those days ended when Dale rolled into town.

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03-02-2012, 08:28 AM
  #618
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The idea that Schultz is an adequate first pairing dman is ****ing preposterous. Get off it.

I get that he's one of Hunter's 2 (or is it 1) "successes", but the thought of anchoring him to Green for 25 minutes a night is ****ing stupid. Period.

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03-02-2012, 08:30 AM
  #619
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It's not like Green is going to get 25 mins at ES though.

Really depends on how their PK times line up. You can play them together at ES and have Schultz be your #4 and Green be your #1 if you dole out the special teams time appropriately. Well, assuming the Caps draw powerplays.

Of course matchups might become an issue but that's more a question of how you want to use Green.

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03-02-2012, 08:33 AM
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
The idea that Schultz is an adequate first pairing dman is ****ing preposterous. Het off it.

I get that he's one of Hunter's 2 (or is it 1) "successes", but the thought of anchoring him to Green for 25 minutes a night is ****ing stupid. Period.
I understand your point, but you go to war with the troops you have.

Would you rather see Hammer in the lineup over Sarge paired with Green, or Alzner with Green... what would you do tonight coach.

Understand I was debating if tonight was a good night to get Hammer a game, since Sarge wiped out last game.

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03-02-2012, 08:35 AM
  #621
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His last healthy year, Green played 20:24 per game at es and on the pk. I don't want Schultz anywhere near 20 minutes. Ever. And as you mentioned. Matchups.

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03-02-2012, 09:24 AM
  #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
The idea that Schultz is an adequate first pairing dman is ****ing preposterous. Get off it.

I get that he's one of Hunter's 2 (or is it 1) "successes", but the thought of anchoring him to Green for 25 minutes a night is ****ing stupid. Period.
So you agree, that prior to his play right now, that Schultz was a weak partner for Green?

Do you agree that Shamo wasn't a top pairing dman too?

If you do agree with these then how much better do you think Green would be with a legit d partner? You know..like one he's never had?

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03-02-2012, 10:59 AM
  #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
So you agree, that prior to his play right now, that Schultz was a weak partner for Green?

Do you agree that Shamo wasn't a top pairing dman too?

If you do agree with these then how much better do you think Green would be with a legit d partner? You know..like one he's never had?
He'd be amazing. Current management has neither the ability nor the intention of getting him that partner though. So it's a moot point with regard to his development as a Cap.

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03-02-2012, 11:07 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
He'd be amazing. Current management has neither the ability nor the intention of getting him that partner though. So it's a moot point with regard to his development as a Cap.
Mike Keenan turned the soft underachieving Adam Creighton into one mean SOB.

Hunter is trying to do the same thing with Schultz and there are signs of early profit to that. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility that Schultz can be that guy. All the kid ever need was a mean streak.

But if you think the management is at fault here I wonder why you seem to want Green shipped out of town if its no fault of his own? You should be wanting Green to stick around and hoping that either management changes its views or is replaced by different management.

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03-26-2012, 01:18 AM
  #625
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Another game were Mike Green does not look anything like the guy you all love to remember.

Trade Mike Green for a 2C Please before his value goes back to down. Not that his value is anything were it was. Its just not as low as it has been.

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