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Old
03-03-2011, 12:39 PM
  #201
Kellogs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BumperStumper View Post
Is this even being debated? I thought it was common knowledge that Melnyk ordered Murray to shed salary a few months ago.
Look up at some of the posts in a few pages back. Holdurbreathe believes that the fire sale might be Murray's idea. Others go significantly further and believe that all of this was part of some sort of great plan that was foreseen all along.

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03-03-2011, 02:52 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
Look up at some of the posts in a few pages back. Holdurbreathe believes that the fire sale might be Murray's idea. Others go significantly further and believe that all of this was part of some sort of great plan that was foreseen all along.
It was the Ottawa media that reported Melnyk ordered Murray to dump contract, I never saw that confirmed by anyone close to the Senators.

After listening to Melynk amd Murray, it just didn't sound like Murray was ordered to do anything. Murray was very clear, he didn't believe just adding to the core was the answer, and as difficult as it was letting the guys go it was the right thing for the franchise. Melnyk basically supported Murray's position, then of course became super fan again.

Maybe I didn't state it quite the right way, but I am more inclined to believe the decision to cut contract and rebuild was arrived at through discussions between Melnyk and Murray, with Murray leading the way.

If Melnyk had decided unilaterally to dump contracts, without consultation with Murray, I think Murray probably would have just stepped down. I also think Murray negotiating Phillips contract, discussing contract with Anderson, as well as scouting and planning for the draft are other indications the decision to rebuild was as much Murray as Melnyk.

Of course I could be 100% wrong, most of my thinking is purely subjective. Yet listening to Melnyk gush about the future, and comments about looking forward to what Murray will do with all the picks at the draft, leaves me thinking as I do.


Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 03-03-2011 at 04:20 PM.
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Old
03-03-2011, 03:23 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
It was the Ottawa media that reported Melnyk ordered Murray to dump contract, I never saw that confirmed by anyone close to the Senators.

After listening to Melynk amd Murray, it just didn't sound like Murray was ordered to do anything. Murray was very clear, he didn't believe just adding to the core was the answer, and as difficult as it was letting the guys go it was the right thing for the franchise. Melnyk bacically support Murray's position, then of course became super fan again.

Maybe I didn't state it quite the right way, but I am more inclined to believe the decision to cut contract and rebuild was arrived at through discussions between Melnyk and Murray, with Murray leading the way.

If Melnyk had decided unilaterally to dump contracts, without consultation with Murray, I think Murray probably would have just stepped down. I also think Murray negotiating Phillips contract, discussing contract with Anderson, as well as scouting and planning for the draft are other indications the decision to rebuild was as much Murray as Melnyk.

Of course I could be 100% wrong, most of my thinking is purely subjective. Yet listening to Melnyk gush about the future, and comments about looking forward to what Murray will do with all the picks at the draft, leaves me thinking as I do.
Great post.

I'll add mine too since we are on the subject.

When BM was hired as GM of this franchise, he maybe told Melnyk the core of this team doesn't have what it takes to win the cup, even after the finals. Melnyk, the winner that he is perhaps instructed Murray otherwise and told BM to try to add pieces to the core to get the team to the top. If true, the Kovalev signing may have been Melnyks idea. It would also explain the trades of picks for vets when clearly we didn't have a team to win it all. BM may have wanted to blow it up since the cup run or during the 2008 draft.

For the ones that want BM gone, everything up to this point may have been Melnyk. By that I mean he instructed to build a team to try to win and Bm tried to acquire the pieces to do so. When it became apparent that this team was going nowhere, BM was given the go he wanted since the run. This would explain why BM hasn't been let go yet.

Anyway thats my theory. I could have written it a lot better, but I don't have much time and just wanted to throw it out there.

In BM I trust

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Old
03-03-2011, 05:37 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Karlsson View Post
Great post.

I'll add mine too since we are on the subject.

When BM was hired as GM of this franchise, he maybe told Melnyk the core of this team doesn't have what it takes to win the cup, even after the finals. Melnyk, the winner that he is perhaps instructed Murray otherwise and told BM to try to add pieces to the core to get the team to the top. If true, the Kovalev signing may have been Melnyks idea. It would also explain the trades of picks for vets when clearly we didn't have a team to win it all. BM may have wanted to blow it up since the cup run or during the 2008 draft.

For the ones that want BM gone, everything up to this point may have been Melnyk. By that I mean he instructed to build a team to try to win and Bm tried to acquire the pieces to do so. When it became apparent that this team was going nowhere, BM was given the go he wanted since the run. This would explain why BM hasn't been let go yet.

Anyway thats my theory. I could have written it a lot better, but I don't have much time and just wanted to throw it out there.

In BM I trust
I don't know that I agree with all of this but... the limited no-move clauses and timing of some of the contracts he signed is very convenient for a rebuild this year (or next).

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Old
03-03-2011, 06:15 PM
  #205
Kellogs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Karlsson View Post
For the ones that want BM gone, everything up to this point may have been Melnyk. By that I mean he instructed to build a team to try to win and Bm tried to acquire the pieces to do so. When it became apparent that this team was going nowhere, BM was given the go he wanted since the run. This would explain why BM hasn't been let go yet.

Anyway thats my theory. I could have written it a lot better, but I don't have much time and just wanted to throw it out there.

In BM I trust
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
Spending should play a role into these discussions, especially when claims are made that this was a master plan all along for a rebuild like topshelf is claiming. While you don't fall into this category, there are some here that constantly rationalize the moves that were made to make it seem like Murray was some sort of genius all along. It seems that the general idea is that every "bad" move by Murray was either a) directed by Melnyk, b) a stop gap while he was secretly planning to rebuild all along c) just bad luck or circumstances out of his control or d) Muckler's fault.
Although funny how you quote in agreement of Holdurbreathe's post in which he says that if Murray is being told to do something without his consultation, then he should resign. Therefore, the same standard should be applied to when Murray was first promoted. He should have stepped down if his belief truly was that this core wasn't good enough to ever win a cup (he should know, he coached them for two years). Even more laughable that if you truly place your faith in Murray now that he supposedly has "control", but what's the guarantee that Melnyk won't get the itch again and start directing some of his moves in order to accelerate the rebuild when he sees a little progress? Based on your premise, you're placing your faith in a puppet.

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Old
03-04-2011, 04:55 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
Although funny how you quote in agreement of Holdurbreathe's post in which he says that if Murray is being told to do something without his consultation, then he should resign. Therefore, the same standard should be applied to when Murray was first promoted. He should have stepped down if his belief truly was that this core wasn't good enough to ever win a cup (he should know, he coached them for two years). Even more laughable that if you truly place your faith in Murray now that he supposedly has "control", but what's the guarantee that Melnyk won't get the itch again and start directing some of his moves in order to accelerate the rebuild when he sees a little progress? Based on your premise, you're placing your faith in a puppet.
Well GMs are puppets. Managers are puppets. There is only 1 big boss and they are instructed to go in a direction that was chosen by people above them. I was an assistant manager for a food company and my direct boss was the QC sales manager. What a puppet he was (lol). Sure we did a lot of micro management, but the biggest decisions (even when we thought it would set us back) were not OUR decisions. Just thinking about that massive product line rationalization we did a few years ago. We tried to fight against it, but in the end, we ended up being puppets.

The Sens organization tried to win with Alfie's core and gave it several chances, until this year where reality shows that Alfredsson just can't carry a team anymore.

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03-04-2011, 11:38 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
Although funny how you quote in agreement of Holdurbreathe's post in which he says that if Murray is being told to do something without his consultation, then he should resign. Therefore, the same standard should be applied to when Murray was first promoted. He should have stepped down if his belief truly was that this core wasn't good enough to ever win a cup (he should know, he coached them for two years). Even more laughable that if you truly place your faith in Murray now that he supposedly has "control", but what's the guarantee that Melnyk won't get the itch again and start directing some of his moves in order to accelerate the rebuild when he sees a little progress? Based on your premise, you're placing your faith in a puppet.
Clarification, I wrote "If Melnyk had decided unilaterally to dump contracts, without consultation with Murray, I think Murray probably would have just stepped down"

I suggested Murray would probably step down because I don't believe he would accept the role of puppet. It was my opinion.

For you to make that some standard, then use the example you did makes no sense.

An appropriate comparative might have been, Melnyk offers Murray the GM role, tells Murray if he accepts the position he will carry out Melnyk's decisions without input or discussion. In this case I would expect Murray to refuse the offer.

What I was suggesting is Murray has a standard, and that is he would not be a puppet.

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Old
03-04-2011, 11:43 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Well GMs are puppets. Managers are puppets. There is only 1 big boss and they are instructed to go in a direction that was chosen by people above them. I was an assistant manager for a food company and my direct boss was the QC sales manager. What a puppet he was (lol). Sure we did a lot of micro management, but the biggest decisions (even when we thought it would set us back) were not OUR decisions. Just thinking about that massive product line rationalization we did a few years ago. We tried to fight against it, but in the end, we ended up being puppets.

The Sens organization tried to win with Alfie's core and gave it several chances, until this year where reality shows that Alfredsson just can't carry a team anymore.
A lot of what you say here is untrue. It may be true in that your experience matches what you wrote, but what you describe is dysfunction. While it may be common, it is certainly not a rule, particularly in businesses that value truth.

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Old
03-05-2011, 02:41 PM
  #209
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Just to debunk a lot of the speculation about who's idea this was, if anyone here knows someone who is in some way connected to the Sens organization (not even necessarily the hockey operations department), they can fill you in on the fact that a consultant who is a business associate of Melnyk's from Toronto had been called in as early as December to evaluate all aspects of the organization (hockey and business operations) to report back to Melnyk.

This consultant was parachuted in and given access to everyone in the organization over the course of a month to interview all employees in order to get a sense of what was working and what wasn't. As part of this evaluation, the employees were all asked their opinions regarding the hockey operations department and team management.

This then culminated with long time season ticket holder focus groups which took place during some home games in January where they were asked about their comfort level with the on-ice product as well as the management and coaching staff. The message that came back to the consultant (and then to Melnyk) was that this rebuild was very necessary and that the fans wanted new blood on the ice and off. Most importantly, fans stated that they would be comfortable with supporting a crummier team as long as there was hope that the team was going in the proper direction and doing a true rebuild.

This was around the time that the Roy McGregor article came out with a leak regarding a "plan" which among other things, included Melnyk putting out the order to dump salary at all costs and clear the decks for next year as well as letting both Murray and Clouston remain in place for the rest of the season before decisions were made on GM and coaching futures. There's no real way to say how much of that article is true but people who work for the Sens certainly corroborate that Melnyk had been scrutinizing all aspects of the team very recently and had come to some conclusions.

If you are looking for circumstantial evidence on whether this is the strategy that has been set out by Melnyk, look no further than the edict made to the other NHL teams that the Sens were going to be dumping players but were in no way willing to take any salary or prospects back, only picks. You would only put that caveat in place if your highest priority was to lower payroll and expenses as there could have been several better hockey deals made if the Sens had a willingness to take back some salary (the way the Leafs did in the Beauchemin deal for example). Filip Kuba reportedly could have been dealt if the Sens were to come off of their demand for only picks and take back some kind of salary commitment for next season.

Why is it that players like Ruutu and Kovalev were dealt days ahead of the deadline for awful returns that were easily eclipsed by worse players on deadline day? Because the priority wasn't to maximize return on these players but to get their salaries off the books for the remainder of the season so Murray had to pull the trigger on the deals before he should have in order to ensure this took place.

If anyone really honestly believes that any of this was some master plan from Murray, just check out his pained reactions to having to explain the deals and what they're doing. He is not having fun doing this and it was definitely not part of his plan.

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Old
03-05-2011, 08:37 PM
  #210
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did anyone rip this thing? didnt have the time to listen to it live im hoping theres a link somewhere where i can listen to it now?

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Old
03-07-2011, 10:50 AM
  #211
Xspyrit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leachman View Post
A lot of what you say here is untrue. It may be true in that your experience matches what you wrote, but what you describe is dysfunction. While it may be common, it is certainly not a rule, particularly in businesses that value truth.
... in businesses that value truth??? Not sure I get your meaning there...

But ya, I'm mostly talking about what I know, which is the food world, so I'm not saying it's like that in every domain. However, as a principle, I think most managers in this world are allowed to make some micro management but they will always have to follow some direction that comes from above them, even if they agree or not. It happened to me before, and I bet it will happen again.

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