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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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Old
03-07-2011, 06:52 PM
  #226
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I've never said it before and I might never say it again but I'm with chosen on this one.

Not that I don't understand what others are saying but for me it comes down to this...


How can we use injuries as an excuse WHEN WE WERE WINNING IN SPITE OF THEM.

We didn't truly slump until anyone who was really relevant to our team was healthy.

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03-07-2011, 06:54 PM
  #227
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He has been doing a good job. I like this team he has developed. I like what he has done to Dubi, Cally, AA, Boyle. I look forward to what he is going to do with Sauer, McD, MDZ and some of our others.

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03-07-2011, 07:15 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You are arguing that Frolov was crap and that he is a big loss. How can both statements be true?
He was signed to play a role, specifically to add scoring depth as a top 6 forward... He can't do that now can he? The fact that he wasn't filling that role when he was healthy is irrelevant, because it's the cap space (and subsequent loss of depth) that is the loss... Just like Drury's contract.... $10 mil in dead cap space combined... In relation to this thread subject matter, that's just another factor that has presented a challenge/problem that's out of the coach's hands and working against him... We have $10 mil in cap space committed to two forwards who were supposed to contribute to our offensive depth, and they're both out of the picture now.... You can't supplant that missing scoring depth easily outside of prospect call-ups, because it's not like there's valuable forwards just sitting around waiting to be signed when you incur season-ending injuries.... Does that seem clear now? 1/6th of our cap space was committed to two forwards who had little to no impact on the team's offensive production... That's Sather's fault, and Tortorella's problem. How many other teams in a similar position to the Rangers have/had $10 mil of cap space sunk into two forwards not contributing much of anything to their team's success?


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-07-2011 at 07:25 PM.
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03-07-2011, 07:25 PM
  #229
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Torts has definitely messed up a bit with Del Zotto, but otherwise with this roster how can we complain. Most guys are skating and don't look to be in a coma of depression like with Renney.

He does take favorites but I guess all coaches do.

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03-07-2011, 07:59 PM
  #230
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People really want Tortorella fired if we miss the playoffs? Honestly, his coaching this year has been remarkable when you consider the actual facts. Sure, he does some annoying things like not giving Avery more ice time or rolling 2 lines or juggling lines like crazy, but you really have to examine the way the season has gone.

Exhibit A) We have lost more key guys to injury this year than just about any other team. Gaborik, Dubinsky, Callahan, Fedetenko, Drury, Frolov have all missed significant stretches due to various injuries. This certainly has to be factored in to how we have done this year.

Exhibit B) Gaborik has not been the impact player we needed this year. Last year he was great but this year, he has been just lost. Whether he is injured or whatever, his production is way lower than anyone would have pegged him for in October.

Exhibit C) Even with all the injuries, a non-factor in Gaborik, Tortorella has a defense core that many around here would have said was too young to be competitive. But we are right in the playoff race with a very inexperienced defense core.

Exhibit D) Tortorella has not only managed to coach a young, injured team to the brink of the playoffs, but he has also developed our players in the process. Aside from Del Zotto, every young player has made great strives in development. Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Sauer, Stepan, Zucarello and even Brian Boyle have all improved and developed at the highest level of hockey in the world. Thats gotta be a credit to the head coach of a hockey team.

In all, John Tortorella has turned into exactly what this young team needs as a head coach. You can not blame him for injuries of to your best players. Instead, he should be given massive amounts of credit for being able to deal with injuries, player development and the expectation of the fans to ice a competitive hockey team each and every night. Not only should Tortorella NOT be fired, but he should be given and extension and at least in consideration for the Jack Adams award.

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Old
03-07-2011, 08:39 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by haohmaru View Post
Fedotenko is no scrub and hockey isn't all about points. Look @ the Rangers record with Feds and without him. Hopefully, we'll make the playoffs and he'll be a monster like he was for the Pens (and TB).
If you subscribe to the theory of team record and player, would you extend the same opinion to Malik? Rangers teams, for some reason had a better record with him than when he wasn't in the lineup.

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03-07-2011, 08:41 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
He was signed to play a role, specifically to add scoring depth as a top 6 forward... He can't do that now can he? The fact that he wasn't filling that role when he was healthy is irrelevant, because it's the cap space (and subsequent loss of depth) that is the loss... Just like Drury's contract.... $10 mil in dead cap space combined... In relation to this thread subject matter, that's just another factor that has presented a challenge/problem that's out of the coach's hands and working against him... We have $10 mil in cap space committed to two forwards who were supposed to contribute to our offensive depth, and they're both out of the picture now.... You can't supplant that missing scoring depth easily outside of prospect call-ups, because it's not like there's valuable forwards just sitting around waiting to be signed when you incur season-ending injuries.... Does that seem clear now? 1/6th of our cap space was committed to two forwards who had little to no impact on the team's offensive production... That's Sather's fault, and Tortorella's problem. How many other teams in a similar position to the Rangers have/had $10 mil of cap space sunk into two forwards not contributing much of anything to their team's success?
So in your opinion, if a player stinks but is drawing a big salary, the team is better off with the stinky player in the lineup than not in the lineup. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Once the contract is signed it becomes irrelevant to success on the ice.

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03-07-2011, 08:51 PM
  #233
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I like what Torts has been doing. NYRs are a very exciting team to watch.

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03-07-2011, 08:58 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
Torts has definitely messed up a bit with Del Zotto, but otherwise with this roster how can we complain. Most guys are skating and don't look to be in a coma of depression like with Renney.

He does take favorites but I guess all coaches do.
Yeah skating through that coma to four straight playoff appearances.

Don't you think it'd make sense for Tortorella to even do that ONE TIME before you start talking about him like he's so far superior to his predecessor?

Then again with how you feel about Anisimov I guess this opinion makes sense to me.

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03-07-2011, 09:00 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So in your opinion, if a player stinks but is drawing a big salary, the team is better off with the stinky player in the lineup than not in the lineup. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Once the contract is signed it becomes irrelevant to success on the ice.

Yeah wolfgaze (i know this isn't his post) your point doesn't make any sense because you're basing it on the assumption that money not utilized on Drury/Frolov type players would be used wisely on players that provide something to the team. That's a complete unknown.

It also makes no sense because then you're giving the coach credit for rookies like Stepan and Sauer and McDonagh who were never even coached by him before coming in and performing.

Boyle is a guy I can see Torts getting credit for. Most of the big rookies who have stepped up I'm not sure how that makes any sense though.

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03-07-2011, 09:06 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
So in your opinion, if a player stinks but is drawing a big salary, the team is better off with the stinky player in the lineup than not in the lineup. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.
Are you intentionally missing the point? Because I didn't think my point was that complicated... Every team has a limited amount of cap space to fill out their roster. The Rangers entered their season with $7 mil committed to Chris Drury, and $3 mil committed to Alex Frolov.... That's 1/6th of their cap space... Between playing crappy hockey when healthy, and now the injuries, the Rangers, with 14 games left to play on the season, have gotten a combined 7 goals and 20 points out of Drury & Frolov, two players expected to contribute to our offensive depth.... Blame it on poor play, blame it on the injuries, blame it on horrible contracts from Sather, none of it goes back to anything Tortorella did or didn't do, yet the circumstances significantly influence where the Rangers fall in the standings.... It's an extreme situation of cap-inefficiency, it significantly impacts our depth and our competitiveness with the rest of the league, and the blame lies with the players and the GM who gave them contracts... How many other teams are getting 20 points out of 1/6th of their cap space , cap space that was relegated to players expected to play and contribute in Top 6/9 Forward roles? Here's some perspective, in 65 games, Marc Staal has registered 3 more points than Drury & Frolov combined were able to contribute in a total of 66 games.

I don't understand why more fans, in the context of this discussion, don't want to take closer look at look at how this team was constructed by Sather, how the cap hits are dispersed relative to production, and subsequently how injuries have hurt this team due to our poor depth and poor value contracts...


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-07-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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Old
03-07-2011, 09:10 PM
  #237
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I think at this point it'd be irresponsible and shortsighted to fire Torts. Players have bought into his system. We get a new coach, with a new system, it's jsut going to set us back even further. Torts is our guy for the next year or two after this at least. He needs to be.

And he gets a free pass from management because of all the injuries that happened at the start of this skid they've recently had I'm sure. They looked a lot better with Gaborik and Fedotenko in against the Flyers. It's a much more complete lineup when we have these three lines: Wolski-Stepan-MZA, Dubi-Anisimov-Callahan, Fedotenko-Boyle-Prust. I'm not quite sure where Gaborik really fits in. Ideally, I'd like to see Avery-Christensen-Gaborik as the other line.

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03-07-2011, 09:11 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Are you intentionally missing the point? I don't think my point was that complicated... Every team has a limited amount of cap space to fill out their roster. The Rangers entered their season with $7 mil committed to Chris Drury, and $3 mil committed to Alex Frolov.... That's 1/6th of their cap space... Between playing crappy hockey when healthy, and now the injuries, the Rangers, with 14 games left to play on the season, have gotten a combined 7 goals and 20 points out of Drury & Frolov, two players expected to contribute to our offensive depth.... Blame it on poor play, blame it on the injuries, blame it on horrible contracts from Sather, none of it goes back to anything Tortorella did or didn't do, yet the circumstances significantly influence where the Rangers fall in the standings.... How many other teams are getting 20 points out of 1/6th of their cap space that was relegated to players expected to play and contribute in Top 6/9 Forward roles?
It's hard to miss a point as ridiculous as one that maintains that when a player that stinks up the joint every night gets hurt, it's a terrible thing. No matter what he is being paid.

If Callahan went down for the year it wouldn't have been as bad as Frolov going down because Frolov was being paid more. Do I understand the point, now?

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03-07-2011, 09:17 PM
  #239
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Yeah wolfgaze (i know this isn't his post) your point doesn't make any sense because you're basing it on the assumption that money not utilized on Drury/Frolov type players would be used wisely on players that provide something to the team. That's a complete unknown.
Show me another team whose GM committed $10 mil to two forwards who produced a grand total of 20 points this season. What other teams currently holding playoff positions are getting this kind of value from $10 mil in cap space relegated to 2 top 9 forwards???

Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
It's hard to miss a point as ridiculous as one that maintains that when a player that stinks up the joint every night gets hurt, it's a terrible thing. No matter what he is being paid.
Uh what????? If a discussion about cap hits and injuries, as they related to team depth, is over your head, just let me know and I'll stop now... Tell me how you, as a coach, fill the void left by two players soaking up $10 mil in cap space combining for 20 points and suffering season ending injuries... This can't be any more clear... We have crappy depth that can't compensate for colossal failure contract & performances from players who were signed to play important roles on this team.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 03-07-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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Old
03-07-2011, 09:35 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Show me another team whose GM committed $10 mil to two forwards who produced a grand total of 20 points this season. What other teams currently holding playoff positions are getting this kind of value from $10 mil in cap space relegated to 2 top 9 forwards???



Uh what????? If a discussion about depth vs. cap hit and injuries is over your head, just let me know and I'll stop now... It's about cap space.... Tell me how you, as a coach, fill the void left by two players soaking up $10 mil in cap space combining for 20 points and suffering season ending injuries... This can't be any more clear... We have crappy depth that can't compensate for colossal failure contract & performances....

But Wolf like I said if you're using that as your argument you have to understand at the same time that you might not be utilizing that money wisely if you had it. Who is to say we don't spend that 10 million on two players who end up choking and producing just as poorly?

There's no way of ever knowing. You don't sign guys like that expecting them not to produce.

And if Torts has nothing to do with them performing that way (which I disagree with on Drury, because I still can't understand why he wasn't in front of the net on every single powerplay), then how does the coach get any credit for the play of rookies like Stepan, McDonagh, and Sauer?

Three players whom without we'd be a trainwreck right now.

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03-07-2011, 09:47 PM
  #241
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But Wolf like I said if you're using that as your argument you have to understand at the same time that you might not be utilizing that money wisely if you had it. Who is to say we don't spend that 10 million on two players who end up choking and producing just as poorly?

There's no way of ever knowing. You don't sign guys like that expecting them not to produce.
The whole point is that this is not a product of Tortorella's doing, yet the circumstances significantly impact the team's ability to be competitive... Do you think Philly, Tampa, Washington, Pittsburgh are getting this kind of performance vs. cap hit value out of their veteran Top 6/9 forwards??? To analyze the coach's performance vs. the team's performance, without any regard for these circumstances, is ill-advised...

You bring up the hypothetical of spending that money on 2 other players... The whole point is that Sather didn't, and we can't after the fact when they get injured for the season, because there aren't FA's sitting around out there waiting to sign contracts and fill the void left by the players who were expected to contribute in these roles.... Sure you can trade for players, but at what cost to your organization and your current team depth???

Quote:
And if Torts has nothing to do with them performing that way (which I disagree with on Drury, because I still can't understand why he wasn't in front of the net on every single powerplay), then how does the coach get any credit for the play of rookies like Stepan, McDonagh, and Sauer?

Three players whom without we'd be a trainwreck right now.
34 year old Chris "Clutch" Drury needs John Tortorella to coach him into contributing? Alex Frolov with seven 20 goal seasons under his belt, needed Torts to show him how to score goals and contribute offensively? Both were given ample opportunities to show they could contribute, both proved to be ineffective in those roles, and were passed in favor of players who could contribute more...

Do you honestly think a coach is going to have the same influence and impact on two seasoned veterans with a combined 17 years NHL experience, as he does with 3 first year rookies? Experienced veterans are low maintenance... They know what's expected of them, and they know how they're supposed to get the job done, because they've lived that before..... They don't need a coach to show them the way... Rookies require much more attention and work on the part of the coaching staff... That much is evident... The coaches are much more actively involved in how they practice, how they train, how they approach and react to game situations, etc....

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03-07-2011, 09:50 PM
  #242
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The medical staff has been fine. The Rangers have been one of the healthiest clubs in the league in seasons leading up to this one. This year was a freak accident, and that happens from time to time to even the healthiest of clubs.

As for Gaborik, concussions are extremely hard to examine. For all we know, he probably didn't have any symptoms at all, and felt fine. If any medical staff needs to go, it's the Penguins for allowing Crosby on the ice so soon after his first concussion, now he won't be back until next year it looks like, and nobody knows how good he'll be anymore.
100% agree.

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03-07-2011, 10:05 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
The whole point is that this is not a product of Tortorella's doing, yet the circumstances significantly impact the team's ability to be competitive... Do you think Philly, Tampa, Washington, Pittsburgh are getting this kind of performance vs. cap hit value out of their veteran Top 6/9 forwards??? To analyze the coach's performance vs. the team's performance, without any regard for these circumstances, is ill-advised...

No but they also get more out of players that make much less. Is that just because the players? Or do the coaches of those teams deserve credit for players like 725K Tyler Kennedy having 15 goals and 18 assists. Or 821K Claude Giroux having 21 goals and 38 assists?

You tell me.

Anyone who expected significant numbers from Drury/Frolov this season, regardless of cap hit, was naive to reality.


You bring up the hypothetical of spending that money on 2 other players... The whole point is that Sather didn't, and we can't after the fact when they get injured for the season, because there aren't FA's sitting around out there waiting to sign contracts and fill the void left by the players who were expected to contribute in these roles.... Sure you can trade for players, but at what cost to your organization and your current team depth???

But that also is neglecting to note what else was out there. If I remember correctly there really wasn't much when we signed Frolov. It was a boom or bust thing. We had to pay him 3 million to get him here or he would've went to Russia. It was worth the risk because at that point in the offseason what else were we going to do with the money? We fit him at that point and gave it a shot. It didn't work. It happens.

34 year old Chris "Clutch" Drury needs John Tortorella to coach him into contributing? Alex Frolov with seven 20 goal seasons under his belt, needed Torts to show him how to score goals and contribute offensively? Both were given ample opportunities to show they could contribute, both proved to be ineffective in those roles, and were passed in favor of players who could contribute more...

I'm not saying Drury needs Torts to coach him, but anyone who has watched Chris Drury over the years (and I know you have) knows that Drury scored a million of his goals in front of the net and on the power play. To completely take him out of this scenario and then wonder why his numbers have declined is pretty crazy. 2 +2=4. It's simple math.

I'm not trying to argue he'd be a thirty goal guy. But there's no reason he couldn't be scoring 20 if utilized properly like his first few seasons here.


Do you honestly think a coach is going to have the same influence and impact on two seasoned veterans with a combined 17 years NHL experience, as he does with 3 first year rookies? Experienced veterans are low maintenance... They know what's expected of them, and they know how they're supposed to get the job done, because they've lived that before..... They don't need a coach to show them the way... Rookies require much more attention and work on the part of the coaching staff... That much is evident... The coaches are much more actively involved in how they practice, how they train, how they approach and react to game situations, etc...

I give Torts zero credit for any our rookies. They all came in and played that way because that's who they are. Stepan proved he was ready.

McDonagh showed up from Hartford and has looked like a 10 year vet since game one. Where exactly does Torts come in?

Sauer spent years in Hartford, a place that Torts states he knows little about and relies on the rest of the organization. He's been a stud since day one.

As far as coaching them in what he wants to do? Sure. But giving him credit for the types of players they are? He has nothing to do with it I'm sorry.

....

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03-07-2011, 10:11 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Whoot Whoot View Post
Torts has definitely messed up a bit with Del Zotto, but otherwise with this roster how can we complain. Most guys are skating and don't look to be in a coma of depression like with Renney.

He does take favorites but I guess all coaches do.
how can you say Torts messed up with Del Zotto, when the rumors were that the player himself was not concentrating on hockey? sure he showed up to practice and games, but he definitely did not make any improvements throughout the year AND he struggled for far too long without showing ANY kind of signs of possibly breaking out of it. He deserved to move down. Coaches can only be blamed for so much about a players development, The player himself must help himself when things were going wrong for such a long time. Anisimov has worked himself through his little rut he was just in. Zuccarello did the same. Why does Tortorella get the blame for Del Zotto not being mature enough to work through it on his own?

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03-07-2011, 10:17 PM
  #245
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Wow the "anti-Torts" still runs deep on this board.

You'd think an exciting, fun-filled season would make people happy but some people never are.

You'd think playing tons of young home-grown players would make people happy.

You'd think watching the pack line on Sunday would make people happy.

Man.

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03-07-2011, 10:26 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by BobSantos View Post
Wow the "anti-Torts" still runs deep on this board.

You'd think an exciting, fun-filled season would make people happy but some people never are.

You'd think playing tons of young home-grown players would make people happy.

You'd think watching the pack line on Sunday would make people happy.

Man.

LOL. Says the biggest Torts defender on this board.

You know what would make some of us happy?

Making the ****ing playoffs.

Like the guy he replaced did 4 years in a row.

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03-07-2011, 10:27 PM
  #247
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Guys out less than 10 games are a joke to bring up. Callahan mattered. Prospal, to me is unimportant, but fine if you want to include. Fedotenko? Please. Christensen? Come on. Boogaard? You must be kidding. Same for Biron.

Gaborik is the interesting one with room for dispute. One of you says it is a major loss. Another says he has been hurt all year. In any case, you cannot complain about Gaborik being hurt. That is his MO. He is always hurt. He is an albatross.

Complaining about the loss of Frolov could be the funniest comment of the thread. Everyone universally hates him but we should moan at our cursed luck when he goes down?
you cant have it both ways. you cant say injuries had nothing to do with the results of the season and then say callahan mattered and prospal could have helped. injuries have been the story of the season so far and when a guy comes back and puts up numbers like callahan, they def matter.

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03-07-2011, 10:39 PM
  #248
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You know what would make some of us happy?

Making the ****ing playoffs

Like the guy he replaced did 4 years in a row. Get a clue.
Having a clue would also entail being able to recognize the differences between the veteran filled rosters that limped into the playoffs 4 years in a row and the young and inexperienced roster we have today....

When it comes to just making the playoffs:

Jagr/Nylander/Straka/Shanahan/Gomez/Drury > Gaborik/Prospal/washed up Drury

I would hope that limping into the playoffs with veteran, out of their prime players, and seeing inevitable early round exits isn't one's criteria for being a happy Ranger fan.


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03-07-2011, 11:08 PM
  #249
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Having a clue would also entail being able to recognize the differences between the veteran filled rosters that limped into the playoffs 4 years in a row and the young and inexperienced roster we have today....

When it comes to just making the playoffs:

Jagr/Nylander/Straka/Shanahan/Gomez/Drury > Gaborik/Prospal/washed up Drury

I would hope that limping into the playoffs with veteran, out of their prime players, and seeing inevitable early round exits isn't one's criteria for being a happy Ranger fan.

No you're right, it's not criteria for being a happy Ranger fan. It's just justification for people like you who think stating "limping into the playoffs 4 years in a row" is really a solid point to make.

It's just so easy to make the playoffs for this organization, right?

Renney's teams always came on at the end and played well in the post season except for 06', which was coincidentally a 100 point season.

Torts took over a team that had a track record of turning it on the last month and making the post season. Then Torts allowed a 3-1 playoff series lead implode, all while making himself the center or attention and being the biggest hypocrite around.

Last year he missed it.

This year he's in a playoff spot with 14 games remaining but it will be challenging for him with the games other teams right behind us have in hand.

Other than not wanting to change to a new course/leadership, which I can understand, what is your actual defense of Torts the coach?

This isn't little league. Results are what matters.

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03-07-2011, 11:14 PM
  #250
PromNite
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Torts has done an amazing job with the cards he was dealt.

If anyone needs to get canned, it's the guy right above Torts.

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