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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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03-19-2011, 10:33 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
I was not one of the posters on here to tried to pigeon-hole the Rangers before the season began. I learned a long time ago just to wait & let things play out the way do before coming to conclusions in spite of evidence that suggested that this team was going to be in lesser position than it is right now.

But all of that being said, there is no way that anyone could reasonably suspect that all the rookies/2nd year players on the team would be playing as well as they have this season at the same time.

This season has had to exceed everyones' expectations. I would think that Torts has a little something to do with that.
I'm totally blown away by the rookies/2nd year player contributions. I'm even more blown away by the consistent effort level. I don't remember the last time I've seen that type of effort in MSG. I don't like Torts very much but I can't deny being impressed with what he has gotten out of this roster.

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03-19-2011, 10:46 PM
  #452
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I'm totally blown away by the rookies/2nd year player contributions. I'm even more blown away by the consistent effort level. I don't remember the last time I've seen that type of effort in MSG. I don't like Torts very much but I can't deny being impressed with what he has gotten out of this roster.
yep.

i dont believe the effort level was always there under renney. under torts this year? id say you could count the amount of games this team didnt show up for on 1 hand...hell maybe even on 1 finger.

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03-20-2011, 04:28 AM
  #453
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Gomez -- one year removed from a 70 pt campaign. Naslund -- one of the top wingers of the past decade, albeit on the decline. Drury -- still a solid second liner averaging 55-60 pts. Zherdev -- a talented if inconsistent forward that's good for 50+ as well. Dubi and Cally young hungry players that are improving. Dawes and Prucha both had talent and potential at the time.

I would argue that the 08-09 had just as much talent in the top 9, considering our highest scorer will likely end up with less than 55 pts...
Well, you know, you are entitled to your opinion, I at least wouldn't trade this years team for that years team...

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Originally Posted by BwayBshirt View Post
But all of that being said, there is no way that anyone could reasonably suspect that all the rookies/2nd year players on the team would be playing as well as they have this season at the same time.

This season has had to exceed everyones' expectations. I would think that Torts has a little something to do with that.
Then we have to agree to disagree, because if Torts can't get this roster into the PO's, I think its a failure, and if Torts get us to a 7th-8th position, I hardly think he deserves coach of the year, lol quite frankly.

I think we should have potential to do some damage in the PO's, and if Torts can make us do that -- I will praise him.

But I am just not prepaired to praise him a ton for a simple 7th-8th spot finnish and a loss in the first round.

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03-20-2011, 09:38 AM
  #454
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Then we have to agree to disagree, because if Torts can't get this roster into the PO's, I think its a failure, and if Torts get us to a 7th-8th position, I hardly think he deserves coach of the year, lol quite frankly.

I think we should have potential to do some damage in the PO's, and if Torts can make us do that -- I will praise him.

But I am just not prepaired to praise him a ton for a simple 7th-8th spot finnish and a loss in the first round.
This doesn't address what he said at all though about the rooks and 2nd years and some other guys all playing so well and so over their heads. Doesn't the coach get some credit for these guys playing so above what anyone would have thought? And if we are only a 7 or 8 even with these guys playing so over their heads than isn't it reasonable to expect that this team would mis the PO's so it's not something that should be blamed solely on the coach...especially when he's working without any vets worth mentioning b/c of the horrible moves sather has made? DOn't you think blame should go to the GM that built the team in this case a little more than Torts?

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03-20-2011, 02:26 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Well, you know, you are entitled to your opinion, I at least wouldn't trade this years team for that years team...



Then we have to agree to disagree, because if Torts can't get this roster into the PO's, I think its a failure, and if Torts get us to a 7th-8th position, I hardly think he deserves coach of the year, lol quite frankly.

I think we should have potential to do some damage in the PO's, and if Torts can make us do that -- I will praise him.

But I am just not prepaired to praise him a ton for a simple 7th-8th spot finnish and a loss in the first round.
I'll back up what the other poster is saying...

Right now, it's easier to come to the conclusion that you have regarding the team. I hate to say it, but there's a little bit of me that shares the same expectation of the team moving forward...although that may also be "hope" talking.

But, did you honestly, truthfully believe that every single young player except MDZ and perhaps Gilroy would be having a good season?

I'll be real here. I thought Stepan was going to have a nice rookie season and not because of the hat trick in game #1 at Buffalo. I thought his playmaking ability was simply something that the team lacked so much of that he had a real chance to make a noticeable impact.

I also thought that MZA was handled perfectly by management. He wasn't forced. His recall happened at just the right time, just at the moment that injuries caught up with the team the 1st time around, just when it became apparent that more offensive skill was needed.

But, you can't possibly tell me that this team would survive the forgettable campaign by MDZ, or a season-ending injury to Frolov, who was a consistent 20-ish goal scorer prior to this season & who started out top 6.

No one predicted Boyle picking up the slack of Avery. Or that Prust would lead the league in SH goals & points right now. Or that this team could survive getting virtually nothing out of Drury.

And certainly, no one could predict that the Rangers would be a competent enough offensive team & still be one of the best defensive teams while having one of the top-5 youngest corps in the NHL, while having a miserable season from their one & only highly skilled passing D-man(MDZ), especially considering that they traded their only other high-level passer on the blueline (Rozi).

It's easy to place this team now. There is zero way that anyone could have envisioned this ride playing out the way it has.

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03-20-2011, 02:54 PM
  #456
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First of all, I don't agree really that the subject of the above question have much to do with this topic. I mean, have Torts brought up these kids and made them what they are today? I wouldn't say that Torts isn't good with these kids, over the long run, I think he can have a impact. But on some it sounds like it works like this: A kid works into the room in like december after getting called up from HFD. Torts say - "Hi my name is John Tortorella". And when the kid steps onto the ice that night Torts have made him into a NHLer. I mean, Sauer is the player he is for a bunch of reasons, not because he met John T a couple of month ago.

Now to the question.

Trying to think back to last summer, I think I expected one of Zuc or Step to make it, especially Zuc. Then you had Grachev in the mix too.

On defense, I expected more of MDZ and Gilroy, but not so much of Sauer. I always held Sauer high in prospect rankings et c, but I don't think I mentioned him in lineup's et c. McD was very unkown to me.

Did I expect all of them to make it? No.

Whats the conclusion then? Should Torts get coach of the year because 4 kids made it (down right beating out two non-rooks in Gilroy and MDZ)? I don't get that argument. I don't think a coach have that big impact on kids. I think Torts have had a big impact on Brian Boyle. Boyle wouldn't have the same impact under Tom Renney, he is a much worse fit in that Renney's system then under Torts system. Then Boyle himself improved his skating a lot, but thats another issue. Fedetenko and Prospal are Torts guys, and you gotta love it when a coach can create that kind chemistry with a player. Prust? I don't know, he is stepping out there and putting everything on the line and showing that he actually is a pretty decent player -- he would work under any coach. It was just his time to break out -- thats honestly my humble opinion at least.

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03-20-2011, 02:57 PM
  #457
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The problem I have with Torts that we play with too big marginals. We don't have the guts to attack the blueline. We only try to get the puck below the hashmarks and forecheck. Long passes up ice, redirect the puck into the attacking zone -- and then chase after.

It works great at times. But not always. I would like to see us break the blueline with speed and take the puck to the net more.

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03-20-2011, 03:01 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The problem I have with Torts that we play with too big marginals. We don't have the guts to attack the blueline. We only try to get the puck below the hashmarks and forecheck. Long passes up ice, redirect the puck into the attacking zone -- and then chase after.
Seems like a pretty good strategy to employ on a roster lacking high end skill and experienced players, no? I think he is maximizing this team's effectiveness given the circumstances of our roster.... Only way to make up for lack of skill/talent is to outwork and out-battle your opponent, and I think he's got our guys buying into that pretty well for the most part.... I know we went through that goal scoring lull just recently but now over the last 7 games, the Rangers are averaging 4.5 goals a game....

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03-20-2011, 07:01 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
The problem I have with Torts that we play with too big marginals. We don't have the guts to attack the blueline. We only try to get the puck below the hashmarks and forecheck. Long passes up ice, redirect the puck into the attacking zone -- and then chase after.

It works great at times. But not always. I would like to see us break the blueline with speed and take the puck to the net more.
I think Torts feels like he has to make adjustments constantly on offense. And since he really doesn't have the horses he'd quite like to have, I don't think that's a bad trait against him right now.

Honestly, this defensive system is exactly the way it looked during the 2004 Stanley Cup run. The difference is that this team is more suited for the defense of that team than the offense of course. We don't have the Lecavalier or Richards...yet.

I actually agree that the transition game...for a team that has the goal totals like us...is not as good as 1 would normally conclude based on logic.

On the other hand, good transition games do involve both creativity & familiarity with what your teammates are going to do. That could explain why the attack is not as straightforward.
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Seems like a pretty good strategy to employ on a roster lacking high end skill and experienced players, no? I think he is maximizing this team's effectiveness given the circumstances of our roster.... Only way to make up for lack of skill/talent is to outwork and out-battle your opponent, and I think he's got our guys buying into that pretty well for the most part.... I know we went through that goal scoring lull just recently but now over the last 7 games, the Rangers are averaging 4.5 goals a game....
To me, this is what coaching is all about: adjusting with the personnel, not force-feeding something that the team is not prepared for.


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Old
03-23-2011, 12:33 AM
  #460
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Nice to hear Micheletti's post game comments about speaking with Dubinsky, and Dubinsky talking about Torts expecting a lot out of him and not wanting to let him down...

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03-23-2011, 06:51 AM
  #461
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First of all, I don't agree really that the subject of the above question have much to do with this topic. I mean, have Torts brought up these kids and made them what they are today? I wouldn't say that Torts isn't good with these kids, over the long run, I think he can have a impact. But on some it sounds like it works like this: A kid works into the room in like december after getting called up from HFD. Torts say - "Hi my name is John Tortorella". And when the kid steps onto the ice that night Torts have made him into a NHLer. I mean, Sauer is the player he is for a bunch of reasons, not because he met John T a couple of month ago.
Now to the question.

Trying to think back to last summer, I think I expected one of Zuc or Step to make it, especially Zuc. Then you had Grachev in the mix too.

On defense, I expected more of MDZ and Gilroy, but not so much of Sauer. I always held Sauer high in prospect rankings et c, but I don't think I mentioned him in lineup's et c. McD was very unkown to me.

Did I expect all of them to make it? No.

Whats the conclusion then? Should Torts get coach of the year because 4 kids made it down right beating out two non-rooks in Gilroy and MDZ)? I don't get that argument.( I don't think a coach have that big impact on kids. I think Torts have had a big impact on Brian Boyle. Boyle wouldn't have the same impact under Tom Renney, he is a much worse fit in that Renney's system then under Torts system. Then Boyle himself improved his skating a lot, but thats another issue. Fedetenko and Prospal are Torts guys, and you gotta love it when a coach can create that kind chemistry with a player. Prust? I don't know, he is stepping out there and putting everything on the line and showing that he actually is a pretty decent player -- he would work under any coach. It was just his time to break out -- thats honestly my humble opinion at least.
To the first and second bold are you serious? Us discussing whether Torts should be fired has nothing to do with the topic (Which is whether Torts should be fired btw...) Clearly you are either being extraodinarily stubborn to a fault or you are addressing some post I don't see and you failed to quote.. Nothing anyone is saying is even remotely close to what you said there! Not even close! Geez guy I don't wanna be rude but if you are having trouble understadning us or something that's fine but I think your stubborness on this is leading you to make pretty glaring errors.

We're saying the team should NOT be in the position it's been in. They as a group have overachieved. When your team overachieves you generally do not fire the coach.
ALL these players that have NOT produced at this level before are doing so under Torts. That means something. Not EVERYTHING, PROBABLY NOT EVEN A JACK ADAMS. but it means SOMETHING. It's ridiculous now that we're talking about Torts not getting fired and you keep bringing up awards. Not getting fired is NOT the same as getting an award.

You disagree. Fine. But you also clearly don't even seem to get what we're saying based on stuff like what i bolded.

Torts took 4 kids and made them better? Step, MZA, Girardi (career year), Staal (1st All star), McD, Sauer, Eminger(Retread traded several times an afterthought at best...people laughed when they saw the trade), Prust (Career years since traded here), Artie gets better and better, Dubs, Cally both better and boths wear by Torts they would run through a brick wall for him and so would the rest of the team. Prospal is having 9 game pt streaks on one knee, Boyle. 4 kids? Like I said you are obviously extremely biased or stubborn here and your being pretty unreasonable in your evaluation as a result


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Old
03-23-2011, 08:40 AM
  #462
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Tortorella is a genius. He did what Renney wasn't ready to do. Took Callahan and Dubinsky and made them the leaders of this team from day 1. You could see that two seasons ago when he leaned on them constantly. It's been that way ever since. Since then the only way to go has been up. His work with the young players has been nothing short of marvelous. Anyone who's judging him by the cruddy January & February is just biased.

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03-23-2011, 08:45 AM
  #463
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The problem I have with Torts that we play with too big marginals. We don't have the guts to attack the blueline. We only try to get the puck below the hashmarks and forecheck. Long passes up ice, redirect the puck into the attacking zone -- and then chase after.

It works great at times. But not always. I would like to see us break the blueline with speed and take the puck to the net more.
Team doesn't have the puck carriers to do that consistently...if they tried to do what you're advocating there would be a ton of blueline turnovers with the other team starting back the other way. You still see it a fair amount during games. Often the Rangers will start out trying to carry the puck in but get stood up, try to dump it in late, get it blocked, other team gets control, etc.

The Rangers tend to push the puck up ice quickly and attack the blueline when they can get a quick transition, but if it's not there, then they dump it and chase it. It's smart hockey and it's how they should be playing with the way the team is right now. To be honest I think they'd be worse and not in a position to make the playoffs if they forced it every time like you seem to be advocating.

You play the game your team is built to play, and the Rangers aren't built to play a super slick carry the puck all the time make passes around everyone and toe drag around defenders style game.

At any rate, I don't think Tortorella should really get the Adams but I think he deserves a lot of credit for the way he's worked with the young players on this team and is getting them to develop. You may not want to give him credit for that, Ola, but I personally think the results are pretty clear. His coaching and gameplan has given these rookies the chance to produce without being overwhelmed or hung out to dry, and he's getting consistent improvement from the "young veterans" like Anisimov Callahan and Dubinsky.

He's doing a good job, I'm impressed this year. If there was an award for "best management of young players" I'd probably give him that one this year

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03-23-2011, 10:37 AM
  #464
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Can we change the name of this thread to, "When we make the playoffs John Tortorella needs to be nominated as a finalist for the Jack Adams award"?

Seriously, the name right now is absurd on so many levels.

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03-23-2011, 11:39 AM
  #465
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He's doing a good job, I'm impressed this year. If there was an award for "best management of young players" I'd probably give him that one this year
Agree.

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03-23-2011, 01:00 PM
  #466
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Can we change the name of this thread to, "When we make the playoffs John Tortorella needs to be nominated as a finalist for the Jack Adams award"?

Seriously, the name right now is absurd on so many levels.
Did we clinch?
IMO, this team plays as good as Lundqvist. Torts is not responsible for goalies, but he is the one who created the system that is G-dependant. Jack Lemaire is his opposite. Lemaire's system makes G less important, almost irrelevant.. I'd give Adams to Lemaire.

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03-23-2011, 01:06 PM
  #467
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Wow... Adams to Lemaire?

Anyway, I think Torts is very strong in certain areas. And I think Renney was a good coach too. Just happen to think we've had back to back good coaches.

Torts is excellent in motivating. Say what you want about certain tactical decisions and some line combinations, but the guy knows how to get a lot out of his players. His style of motivation isn't common either, but he definitely gets them playing hard. I also appreciate Torts' ability to adjust to the flow of the game. He can realize pretty quickly if a line is garbage and he just avoids putting them out there. And somehow, he has the players buy into the idea that they weren't playing for a good reason.

Anyway, I like Torts. Hope he stays around for a while. The progress that these kids have shown has been stellar, and he has to get at least a little credit for that.

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03-23-2011, 01:09 PM
  #468
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Did we clinch?
IMO, this team plays as good as Lundqvist. Torts is not responsible for goalies, but he is the one who created the system that is G-dependant. Jack Lemaire is his opposite. Lemaire's system makes G less important, almost irrelevant.. I'd give Adams to Lemaire.
Don't say that to Devils fans.

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03-23-2011, 01:09 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Can we change the name of this thread to, "When we make the playoffs John Tortorella needs to be nominated as a finalist for the Jack Adams award"?

Seriously, the name right now is absurd on so many levels.
That's not as absurd as the current title for sure but I still think it's going well over the line to give Toprts coach of the year. Finalist maybe but I'm not sure he shoul;d get it. It's certainly not an overwhelimg choice.

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03-23-2011, 01:22 PM
  #470
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That's not as absurd as the current title for sure but I still think it's going well over the line to give Toprts coach of the year. Finalist maybe but I'm not sure he shoul;d get it. It's certainly not an overwhelimg choice.
The guy took a bunch of kids and turned them into a heart and soul, winning team. Not only that, he's building a foundation for the future. Anyone who even mutters "canned" in reference to Torts at this point needs to be exiled to watch the Bryan Trottier Rangers for eternity,

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03-23-2011, 08:03 PM
  #471
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Don't say that to Devils fans.
He is a Devils fan. You never noticed that before?

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03-23-2011, 08:10 PM
  #472
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Torts has done a great great job with the kids. Keep him here, and let him take them through what's gonna be a great journey.

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03-23-2011, 09:01 PM
  #473
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Torts has done a great great job with the kids. Keep him here, and let him take them through what's gonna be a great journey.
I don't think he gets enough credit for Sather's commitment to youth, either. I think we'd have seen more trades of our kids at the past two deadlines if it hadn't been for Sather. He really loves our young players, and I think he should get a lot of credit for convincing Glen to go with them.

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03-23-2011, 09:40 PM
  #474
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When we make the playoffs John Tortorella should be nominated for Jack Adams award

Torts is a ****in all-star


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03-23-2011, 09:43 PM
  #475
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i would agree but febuary kills his chances

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