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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

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Old
03-06-2011, 08:22 AM
  #276
Dwight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post


I do hope you intend to elaborate or come out "ha ha ha", particularly considering you took him 7 spots earlier last draft. Don't think there was any public slamming or public evidence that should see him nosedive. Hating that much on a pick seemingly randomly without elaborating why is rather awful.
7 spots earlier, but 4 rounds later

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Old
03-06-2011, 09:22 AM
  #277
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Winnipeg Falcons selects: Terence O'Reilly

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Old
03-06-2011, 09:37 AM
  #278
Velociraptor
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Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
The Vancouver Maroons select defenseman Teppo Numminen



Numminen's skill set is exactly what I wanted for my third pairing anchor. He's a great skater who plays a steady and efficient game at both ends of the ice, doesn't make many mistakes, and he can move the puck really well and also play on the PP.

He was considered a top-10 to top-15 defenseman in the league every single year for almost a decade of hockey history... and this was a guy who many considered "under-rated".

Full bio by seventies: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=139
Really thought I could snag Teppo with my next pick, nice grab.

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Old
03-06-2011, 11:21 AM
  #279
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Numminen is a good choice for the top-4, I agree. Also one of those guys who were a jack of all trades.

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Old
03-06-2011, 11:44 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
7 spots earlier, but 4 rounds later
Right, but in a 40 teamer, I think he can be a lower-end 2nd line glue guy.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:10 PM
  #281
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Dawson City selects Craig Ludwig.

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Old
03-06-2011, 12:26 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
Right, but in a 40 teamer, I think he can be a lower-end 2nd line glue guy.
Tell me more about Watson. I know very little about him other than that he was very big for his time and a decent scorer, though nothing special. Was he good defensively? Was he a digger, an aggressive physical player? What's his deal? Maybe I'm just ignorant here, but Watson is largely faceless to me.

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03-06-2011, 12:55 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Tell me more about Watson. I know very little about him other than that he was very big for his time and a decent scorer, though nothing special. Was he good defensively? Was he a digger, an aggressive physical player? What's his deal? Maybe I'm just ignorant here, but Watson is largely faceless to me.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=406

Pretty good defensively (one quote about Watson checking Howe in a playoff series and Howe unable to do anything at even strength from Conn Smythe particularly stands out; there is some moe general stuff as well).. Good digger and along the boards, a good fighter, and could be rather physical, and a powerful physical, when agitated. He was considered a power forward as well.

He's got all the intangibles you'd want out of a good glue guy. He's a solid but unspectacular scorer, admitably, but there really aren't glue guys around with particularly good scoring records anymore.

Good and clutch playoff performer as well, which I rather wanted.

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Old
03-06-2011, 01:22 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Dawson City selects Craig Ludwig.


Good pick. He's a bit slow but he's a rock physically and blocking shots.

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Old
03-06-2011, 01:28 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post


Good pick. He's a bit slow but he's a rock physically and blocking shots.


Just try getting a slapper from the point past those monstrosities!

Is there a "Ludwig Rule" in place where players can't enhance their shinpads as he did? You just don't see that kind of creativity anymore.

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Old
03-06-2011, 02:17 PM
  #286
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Was it Ludwig that was really good at baseball?

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Old
03-06-2011, 02:19 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
Was it Ludwig that was really good at baseball?
No that was Don Cherry

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Old
03-06-2011, 02:26 PM
  #288
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
No that was Don Cherry
im pretty sure Ludwig was also , if it's not him it was another Dallas defenseman , and not Hatcher or Zubov.

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Old
03-06-2011, 02:33 PM
  #289
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More on Watson: he is in the Hall, so he had to be somewhat great. Definitely one of the weakest NHL-era players there, but just the fact that he is in there, makes you pause and try to understand why.

First of all, he was decent offensively at best. Good goalscorer, awful playmaker, overall point production in between that. Those 7 top-20s in goals are among the weakest top-20s ever (for whatever reason there was poor scoring depth in the early 50s when he peaked) - BUT, if it was that easy, everyone would have done it.

So, I conclude that he is in the hall for the overall package he brought. Everything I found about him talked about his size, strength, leadership, two-way play, and his unique brand of clean physicality and toughness.

No way does the average intangible player get in with that offensive record. And no way does a guy with those intangibles get in if he was just a 20-30 point scorer annually. Put them together, and you still have a weaker HHOFer, but at least one who is justifiable. And a good 2nd line glue guy - one of the weakest offensively*, but one of the best for intangibles.

*Just to show you what I mean, I was analyzing some available wingers before I selected Jack Adams; just making sure I was on the right track. I looked at their six best offensive seasons from a percentage standpoint, based strictly on points. Pre-merger players were compared to #1 in their league, except for 1922-1924, when there were three leagues, in which case I compared to #1 * 1.25 (to be extra discriminating). All other players were compared to #2, and no outliers were removed.

Adams: 94 80 67 62 61 60 - 424
Wharram: 82 82 81 64 55 53 - 417
Nolan: 89 73 70 59 58 55 - 404
Oatman: 75 69 67 66 60 58 - 395*
Henry: 74 70 64 63 59 58 - 388
Guerin: 79 73 72 60 49 48 - 381
Watson: 65 62 60 58 55 50 - 350

* I knew Oatman had one, maybe two, NHA seasons that were better than 60% and would have bumped the 60 & 58 off the bottom and improved his score, but at the time I knew Oatman was not what I was after, so I did not bother going further. Also, Oatman is hurt by the low assist totals of the era, but accounting for this in this type of comparison is difficult and time-consuming.

LF - obviously I was joking when I said he was a terrible pick and a reach. I love Watson. The days of me getting guys like Watson and Oatman to patrol my always excellent 4th lines are long gone, and it is depressing from the standpoint of trying to build winning teams, but satisfying from the standpoint of wanting the players to be appropriately ranked. My work there is almost done!

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Old
03-06-2011, 03:05 PM
  #290
Velociraptor
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raleh's clock over 6:10 ET?

I never remember him not being around to pick, I'm not bashing him at all because it's most likely personal-related, but he's usually right on time.

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Old
03-06-2011, 03:08 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
raleh's clock over 6:10 ET?

I never remember him not being around to pick, I'm not bashing him at all because it's most likely personal-related, but he's usually right on time.
4:10, he was skipped twice according to OP.

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Old
03-06-2011, 04:11 PM
  #292
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raleh is skipped again.

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Old
03-06-2011, 04:18 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
More on Watson: he is in the Hall, so he had to be somewhat great.
I'm no great fan of arguments based upon hall of fame standing, year of induction, etc. It is unfortunately not the case that only great players have made the hall of fame. There seem to be many factors which go into hall of fame induction. Greatness is the most important of them, but even that can be ignored. Look at Bernie Morris. Toronto is the site of the hockey hall of fame and the nexus of either the most influential (read: loudmouthed) or second most influential hockey press corps in the world. I don't consider greatness at all a given under those circumstances, just as I don't consider Clark Gilles even a "somewhat great" player in an all-time sense, other than as a pugilist.

You did a lot of research on Watson, and much of it is good, but some of it smells funny. Reds4life is right that we must take a very critical eye to descriptions of old-time players and try to avoid the nostalgic rememberances and the homeric (I am aware of the double-entendre here) proclamations of local rags. The Toronto Globe and Mail is fairly notorious as a wretched hive of scum and homerism, and when you see quotes like this one:

Quote:
...Watson, the only leaf with more than 10 goals other than the Kennedy line, trails numerous other lefties in the points department, but we guarantee, without checking, that there are not many, if any, with a better defensive record.

...The big fellow is respected by his opponents. He sometimes takes too much from some of the chippier types but once aroused, can be relied upon to give a good account of himself.

...There isn't a southpaw winger in hockey today that we'd like to trade for Watson, and that includes messrs. Smith and Lindsay.
...it makes you realize that the G&M's nonsense is nothing new. "Without checking"...really? Wouldn't trade him for Ted Lindsay?! Really??? Lines like that cast into doubt much of the material from the hometown paper.

I'm also fairly skeptical of publications with names like Wings of Fire and The Leafs: the First 50 Years simply because they look very much like books written specifically for the fans of one team or the other. Overstatement is pretty much par for the course with these publications, and most of them are written by people who never saw the players in question and who have less access to source material than any one of us with a simple Google Archives search. I haven't read the books in question so maybe I'm wrong here, but I am suspicious.

In short, the profile looks a little "fluffy". I can definitely buy Watson as a good puckwinner and a good defensive player with some limited offensive upside, but he doesn't seem to have been anything more than that, and I am not persuaded by his inclusion in the HHOF as evidence of greatness. At any rate, a fine player at this point in the draft, especially for a left wing.

Quote:
*Just to show you what I mean, I was analyzing some available wingers before I selected Jack Adams; just making sure I was on the right track.
Speaking of which, when did Jack Adams play the wing, exactly? I know he was Babe Dye's center in Toronto and I know he was a center in his best year in the PCHL because I have an article on the all-stars for that season. When was he actually a wing?

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Old
03-06-2011, 04:42 PM
  #294
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Springfield selects C Bobby Smith

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Old
03-06-2011, 04:47 PM
  #295
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Gary Bergman, D

Can someone PM the next GM please?

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:04 PM
  #296
Velociraptor
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Gary Bergman, D

Can someone PM the next GM please?
Done.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:08 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
He is a rock to have in the top-4 of a line up. It was rare to see him mess up, very consistent, great playoff performer, always able to raise his performance when it mattered. Sure he didnt have an incredible high but he didnt have a deep low either.
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
A poor man's Suter? No.

Ramage was bigger and more physically involved than Suter. Had more of a leader reputation than Suter too. About the only thing Suter did better than him was offense (which Suter was very good at, mind you).

Ramage was just a good all around defenseman, really. Had a bit of everything. Good defensively, threw in some offense - especially in his earlier years when he was relied on for it (he wasn't asked for it later on and played limited powerplay) - added in physical play and a bit of nasty when needed.
And this is why I tried so hard to get more older GMs involved in this. Ramage is a guy whose awards recognition is basically nothing, compared to quite a few undrafteds. But when multiple people who actually saw him says basically the same thing, it means something. The ATD used to be full of people who would have seen Ramage play, which is why he gets taken where he does, apparently. (I was wondering if he was one of those guys who was overrated as a fan favorite).

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:16 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
To kick-off our third line and shore up our PK, the Toronto St. Pats select a rather good defensive player and PKer, who also brings and agitating game, Eric Nesterenko.
Kind of happy to see him go. He didn't fit into my long term plans, but if he dropped, it would have been really tough not to reunite the dynamic MacKell-Nesterenko PK duo that scored historically high levels of SHGs.

Battleship Leduc - I had him as my #5 last year and he's the one guy on my team that I just got the sense as the draft went along wasn't as good as I thought he was.

Pelletier put a bio up on him sometime during the ATD playoff last year (I didn't see it until the finals were almost over, so it's not like I was sitting on info), and Leduc is not the great skater we thought he was:

Quote:
Leduc joined the Montreal Canadiens in 1925-26, but he was strictly a substitute defenseman. Back in those days the top players played most of the game, only spotted by the substitutes for short rests or for penalties. Leduc was said to be "far from a polished skater and his crude style did not suggest he was qualified to be a regular."

Despite his reserve status, he was a fan favorite. "His aggressive scrambling play made him very popular with the fans and his appearance on the ice drew lots of applause," wrote Charles Coleman in Trail of the Stanley Cup. "When he got up a full head of steam it seemed uncertain if he could be stopped or stop himself. This is how he earned the sobriquet of Battleship."
But then of course:

Quote:
Leduc played most of his 10 year NHL career with Les Canadiens, scoring 56 goals and earning 552 penalty minutes in 383 games. He was a big part of Montreal's back to back Stanley Cup championships in 1930 and 1931.
Any, it seems like his nickname isn't quite the complement we thought it was (we always assumed it meant he hit like a Battleship, though I have read he was a hard hitter elsewhere).

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:24 PM
  #299
TheDevilMadeMe
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agree. I knew there was something suspect there but thought I'd let billy have that one... TDMM isn't so generous
No, I'm not.

There is a lot of potential for ATD bios to be the basis of a very valuable historical project in the future. They are already figuring heavily into the HOH board's Hall of Fame project. And misleading statistical noise, like calling Brian Sutter "10th" or "15th" in Hart voting because a single homer writer gave him a 3rd place vote each time has no place in a serious historical discussion.

And not to pick on Billy, he's far from the only one who does that.

EB includes meaningless finishes like that in his bios for "completeness," but I see him pointing out when the finishes were with only a handful of votes, which is fair.

If I was looking at Sutter's Hart record, I'd say he finished 6th once (assuming he actually got a meaningful number of votes that time), then noted in a comment that he received a single third place vote in the other two years.

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Old
03-06-2011, 05:24 PM
  #300
jkrx
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
im pretty sure Ludwig was also , if it's not him it was another Dallas defenseman , and not Hatcher or Zubov.
It was a joke as Don Cherry allegedly lost a NHL contract due to being injured while playing baseball.

It was another guy who were good at Hockey and Baseball he is the only player to be drafted by teams of both sports actually, Tom Glavine.

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