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ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:27 PM
  #876
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Yeah it was between Quinn and Sather for me and Dave, solid pick there mats.
Curious why you took Quinn then. I see him as basically a worse version of Sather, but then, I could be wrong. It's obviously a different game to evaluate coaches.

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03-10-2011, 11:29 PM
  #877
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Curious why you took Quinn then. I see him as basically a worse version of Sather, but then, I could be wrong.
Maybe because Quinn was working with Bure and Sundin while Glen had Gretzky and Messier?

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03-10-2011, 11:40 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Curious why you took Quinn then. I see him as basically a worse version of Sather, but then, I could be wrong. It's obviously a different game to evaluate coaches.
One thing Quinn has going for him is that he has had some measure of success with a few different teams. Nothing overwhelming like Sather, but he did well in a few cities.

Sather's only successful NHL experience as coach came after he came up aces in a few successive drafts and had a bunch of hall of famers coming of age.

His biggest contribution from everything I have read is giving those young players plenty of rope to learn and to build confidence, and teaching them how to be professionals.

Furthermore, I'm pretty confident that the assistant was Sather's x's and o's detail guy. Does he come with Sather in the draft?

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03-10-2011, 11:42 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
One thing Quinn has going for him is that he has had some measure of success with a few different teams. Nothing overwhelming like Sather, but he did well in a few cities.

Sather's only successful NHL experience as coach came after he came up aces in a few successive drafts and had a bunch of hall of famers coming of age.

His biggest contribution from everything I have read is giving those young players plenty of rope to learn and to build confidence, and teaching them how to be professionals.

Furthermore, I'm pretty confident that the assistant was Sather's x's and o's detail guy. Does he come with Sather in the draft?
Technically, since you can draft assistant coaches, he could.

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Old
03-11-2011, 01:05 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Did nobody read my Harris bio with groundbreaking info?
I read the whole thing earlier on. I appreciate the work, but I was pretty disappointed by the lack of info there is in there. Most of it is a whole lot of nothing. "successful pro career", one of the "highest-salaried players", "was given a cordial hand", "high scorer", having a "bitter feud" with another player, taking a few "terrific shots" in one game, being one of the "most notable" players on a minor league team, and "star forward" of said team, don't say a lot, really.

What I was able to get from this, though, is that there are faint indications that he was a good skater and stickhandler, and pretty gritty. He may have also been decent defensively. Mostly though, what I think of Harris is what I thought before - he had a lot of assists and a lot of PIMs. That seemed to be his game.

If you were searching for "Smokey Harris Hockey", try "Harris Hockey" or "Smoky Harris" or "Harris Vancouver" or "Harris Millionaires". You can probably find more.

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03-11-2011, 03:28 AM
  #881
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JFA selects Dick Irvin, centre.

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03-11-2011, 03:29 AM
  #882
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Stoneberg selects defenceman James Patrick.

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03-11-2011, 06:37 AM
  #883
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Sorry for delay been busy trying to get information out of someone.

Winnipeg Falcons selects Mike Vernon, G

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Old
03-11-2011, 07:29 AM
  #884
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JFA selects Dick Irvin, centre.
Thanks for making my pick. One of the best goal-scorers remaining. What do you guys think Dick playing wing

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03-11-2011, 07:48 AM
  #885
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Dick probably should not play wing. Unlike Tommy Smith, there is no evidence he ever did that. Also, Dick was one of the best stick handlers of his era, and I believe he was also very fast with a quite robust build. I would definitely rather see him charging through the middle of the ice than down the wing with those assets.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:25 AM
  #886
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Springfield selecs LW Valery Kamensky

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:33 AM
  #887
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HHH is skipped, and Reen has been PM'd.

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Old
03-11-2011, 09:37 AM
  #888
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Wow...Dan Bain had an all-time elite moustache.

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Old
03-11-2011, 10:03 AM
  #889
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A couple of questions about Eddie Oatman.

1) When was he actually a PCHA 1st team all-star? The information I have (the Trail) lists Oatman as a 1st teamer only in 1914 and 1915. Was he there in 1916, as well? Would anyone mind posting the complete PCHA all-star tables here, if available?

2) Is the Calgary Daily Herald article that describes Oatman in such glowing terms (the "sixty minute man" piece) not, perhaps, a bit nostalgic? The article was written in 1923 (well past Oatman's prime) as he left Victoria for Calgary, and it seems like Oatman hadn't been a star for quite some time by 1923.

I dunno. I find the opinions expressed by some posters here about Oatman a bit curious. seventies seems to think he's as good as any PCHA forward not named Taylor, and compares Oatman favorably to guys like Foyston and Morris in spite of a vast difference in all-star recognition. I've read a lot of material from the western leagues during Oatman's heyday and other than the 1923 piece, I have seen no superlatives written about him. What gives?

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03-11-2011, 11:05 AM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
A couple of questions about Eddie Oatman.

1) When was he actually a PCHA 1st team all-star? The information I have (the Trail) lists Oatman as a 1st teamer only in 1914 and 1915. Was he there in 1916, as well? Would anyone mind posting the complete PCHA all-star tables here, if available?

2) Is the Calgary Daily Herald article that describes Oatman in such glowing terms (the "sixty minute man" piece) not, perhaps, a bit nostalgic? The article was written in 1923 (well past Oatman's prime) as he left Victoria for Calgary, and it seems like Oatman hadn't been a star for quite some time by 1923.

I dunno. I find the opinions expressed by some posters here about Oatman a bit curious. seventies seems to think he's as good as any PCHA forward not named Taylor, and compares Oatman favorably to guys like Foyston and Morris in spite of a vast difference in all-star recognition. I've read a lot of material from the western leagues during Oatman's heyday and other than the 1923 piece, I have seen no superlatives written about him. What gives?
1) The PCHA all-stars aren't 100% complete. the original list in the "retro awards" thread in the HOH section was compiled by BM67 by trawling the "prominent north american non-NHL players" section of Total Hockey 2. IIRC, Oatman was not listed there, and therefore couldn't have had all-star teams listed. One online biography of Oatman said, Eddie was picked 10 straight years as an all-star with the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA).. Also, a 1916 quote from Frank Patrick in my last bio appears to confirm this:, "Of Oatman, I have nothing but admiration. He is a wonderful player, and the fact that during his four years service on the coast he was selected as an all-star each season shows clearly that he is one of the stars of hockey."

2) Yes, it's possible that the Calgary article is describing him nostalgically - who really knows? But it is talking about him in the present tense, as though that is the way he plays now and not the way he used to play. He was finished being a star in the offensive sense of the word, yes. But the article describes "how" he scores and not necessarily that he's still doing it at a prolific rate (because he wasn't). It also describes his play without the puck, which, as we know, tends to remain steady, or even sharpen, after a two-way player's offense has dried up. If they are describing his PCHA play from the year before, that would make sense, because although he didn't se the league on fire, his 19 points was a respectable total.

I don't think Oatman is "as good as any PCHA forward not named Taylor", but yes, I do think they all seem to just "blend together" after Taylor. Their offensive exploits over time are all so similar (or, like Morris and Fredrickson, higher peaks for shorter time) that no one stands head and shoulders above that pack. Aside from Walker's defense, no one seems to have a major intangible advantage or disadvantage on the pack (MacKay was pretty good defensively, Foyston won an award as the "all around champion of the league", Dunderdale was scrappy, oatman was a leader, Adams was tough, Roberts was a power forward, etc) - and Walker is the one whose offense lags well behind the rest, so where does that leave me?

I listed about 8 names that I surmised should all be selected in the 200-300 range and I did put Oatman's name last on that list deliberately. He could be the dimmest light of all of them but he was known as a star in his own right, earned hearty praise, and had less help than any PCHA star forward.

Not sure if you've seen my ATD2010 bio on him:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=145

It was written a year ago, and I see Google News has added a lot more newspapers since then. A quick search demonstrated to me that there is a lot more out there now, and if I was writing another bio, I could afford to be much more selective about what I included, but a lot of what I did use last year is very complimentary.

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Old
03-11-2011, 11:14 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
It was written a year ago, and I see Google News has added a lot more newspapers since then. A quick search demonstrated to me that there is a lot more out there now, and if I was writing another bio, I could afford to be much more selective about what I included, but a lot of what I did use last year is very complimentary.
I'll definitely see what else I can find over the next few weeks.

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Old
03-11-2011, 11:35 AM
  #892
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
1) The PCHA all-stars aren't 100% complete. the original list in the "retro awards" thread in the HOH section was compiled by BM67 by trawling the "prominent north american non-NHL players" section of Total Hockey 2. IIRC, Oatman was not listed there, and therefore couldn't have had all-star teams listed. One online biography of Oatman said, Eddie was picked 10 straight years as an all-star with the Pacific Coast Hockey Association (PCHA).. Also, a 1916 quote from Frank Patrick in my last bio appears to confirm this:, "Of Oatman, I have nothing but admiration. He is a wonderful player, and the fact that during his four years service on the coast he was selected as an all-star each season shows clearly that he is one of the stars of hockey."
Actually, I believe BM67 took that information from the Trail - or at least so he said. At any rate, incomplete data is a problem, but we can only credit what we can prove. I did read your bio, and two quotes stick out in regards to Oatman's all-star participation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIHR
In the 1914-15 season, he was named to the PCHA all-star team. The Royals became the Portland Rosebuds and Eddie became the team captain. The following year, he also was its coach and was an all-star again when the club won the league championship.
...which seems to imply that Oatman was an all-star in 1915-16. Problem is, we don't know it he was a 1st or 2nd teamer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trail
The next year playing rover and RW with the Royals, he made the PCHA All-Star team, in spite of being out two weeks with a broken toe. The team was moved to Portland where he repeated on the All-Star team when the Rosebuds won the championship but failed to win the cup
...which says the same thing (as the context is clearly the 1915-16 PCHA season).

The thing is, I don't take the PCHA 2nd team all-stars very seriously, at all, due to the split league and the fact that there were only three teams in the league most seasons. Being a 2nd teamer meant that a player was actually average. Think about it. We, as a group, really need to stop throwing around PCHA 2nd team all-star credits like they are worth anything. They are not.

It appears that Oatman was a 1st team all-star twice, maybe three times - though 1915-16 is unclear. This doesn't compare well, at all, to guys like Foyston and Morris who were 1st teamers six times, or to 5-time 1st teamer MacKay.

Your career scoring numbers are also misleading in that they compare Oatman to players who clearly peaked a good deal higher than he did. Peak value is not everything, but a sustained peak of 5-6 seasons with lower value in non-peak years is considerably more valuable than year after year of being merely "good", which is pretty much how Oatman's career looks to me in comparison to Foyston, Morris and MacKay.

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Old
03-11-2011, 11:51 AM
  #893
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anybody knows how to alphebetically put all the drafted names?

My eyes hurt just trying to see if some players are drafted and I suck with computer lol

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03-11-2011, 11:56 AM
  #894
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anybody knows how to alphebetically put all the drafted names?

My eyes hurt just trying to see if some players are drafted and I suck with computer lol
It's all about ctrl+f on the first page. Last thing I do before picking to ensure my list is accurate.

You have to check one name at a time, I usually just type in the last name.

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Old
03-11-2011, 12:04 PM
  #895
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Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Mike Foligno


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Old
03-11-2011, 12:18 PM
  #896
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Springfield selecs LW Valery Kamensky
Outside of Mario, he was my first favorite player. I love him. If you have the time I would really love to see a good bio on him.

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Old
03-11-2011, 12:53 PM
  #897
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Actually, I believe BM67 took that information from the Trail - or at least so he said. At any rate, incomplete data is a problem, but we can only credit what we can prove. I did read your bio, and two quotes stick out in regards to Oatman's all-star participation:

...which seems to imply that Oatman was an all-star in 1915-16. Problem is, we don't know it he was a 1st or 2nd teamer.

...which says the same thing (as the context is clearly the 1915-16 PCHA season).

The thing is, I don't take the PCHA 2nd team all-stars very seriously, at all, due to the split league and the fact that there were only three teams in the league most seasons. Being a 2nd teamer meant that a player was actually average. Think about it. We, as a group, really need to stop throwing around PCHA 2nd team all-star credits like they are worth anything. They are not.
- BM67 might have gotten a few tidbits from The Trail here and there, but I know the full team is only listed there for 1913, and from there, one or two players might be listed in the season sections, and a couple of players may have a couple teams listed in their bios in the same way that Oatman did. But it's definitely not complete.

- I don't think you should think that being a PCHA 2nd team all-star is special either. But a bigger concern should be just how much weight you place on all-star teams for PCHA players. At the moment, it appears to be your #1 criteria, by far. Should it be? For example, do we know if the 1st and 2nd team RW were practically even in terms of performance? Or was there a massive chasm there, and the 2nd teamer was no better than the scrub below him? Was the 2nd team RW actually better than every LW that season? Or vice versa?

What you are basically saying is,

1st team = good
2nd team = average
not on 1st or 2nd team = bad

And that may or not be true. Whether it is or not, it's an extremely..... binary way to judge these players.

Seeing how much offense a player like Oatman (or Foyston, or MacKay) generated in relation to a league leading, all-time great and known quantity such as Cyclone Taylor is a much more "accurate" way of understanding their offensive worth, which is a big part of their worth as players. I know this was a very small league and while 2nd team all-stars don't tell us much, 1st teams only tell us marginally more. You know that as a proponent of the "percentage" system for judging offense, I don't look at all of Oatman's 6th-10th place finishes and assess him as I would a post-merger player. I realize that as a frequent "55-75% of the leader" scorer, he is more of a Tonelli/Prentice/Verbeek/Guerin/Nevin in terms of his offensive worth, and not the Alfredsson/Hossa/St.Louis those raw rankings might imply.

Quote:
It appears that Oatman was a 1st team all-star twice, maybe three times - though 1915-16 is unclear. This doesn't compare well, at all, to guys like Foyston and Morris who were 1st teamers six times, or to 5-time 1st teamer MacKay.
See, this tells us very little. Morris was such an offensive stud that he was bound to dominate the RW 1st all-star spot for as long as he was there. Oatman being a 2nd teamer behind him tells us he was "not as good as Morris" (I agree) and little else.

Quote:
Your career scoring numbers are also misleading in that they compare Oatman to players who clearly peaked a good deal higher than he did. Peak value is not everything, but a sustained peak of 5-6 seasons with lower value in non-peak years is considerably more valuable than year after year of being merely "good", which is pretty much how Oatman's career looks to me in comparison to Foyston, Morris and MacKay.
I agree. I find it very similar to how a player like Ron Francis or Alex Delvecchio may have "gained some ground" on higher-peaking contemporaries like, say, Dickie Moore or Sergei Fedorov. Doesn't mean he's better, or as good, but it looks good for him and it closes some of the gap.

I also realize that scoring levels fluctuated wildly during their careers. I didn't find it that important since they always played in the same league, but it could have an impact if one player really cashed in in a very high or low-scoring season. An intensive "vs. #1" or, if confined strictly to the PCHA, "vs. #2" study would account for these things, and would help to show just what the difference was between peak Oatman and peak Foyston/MacKay, and also what was the difference in their post-peak incarnations.

Before undertaking that, I do recall you mentioning that playmakers who played in the days before full recording of assists, get a bit shafted in their overall point totals. I agree, yet, I've never made such an adjustment with regards to Oatman when I discuss his percentages. What are your thoughts on tripling the assist totals to "normalize" the assists per goal rate from 0.47 to a more modern-looking 1.41?

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Old
03-11-2011, 12:57 PM
  #898
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Montreal Canadiens are proud to select Mike Foligno

Reen, I just haven't had time to reply to your PM yet, but I meant to still do that.

Now that you have made a pick, should I bother?

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Old
03-11-2011, 01:16 PM
  #899
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The Peterborough Petes select RW: Jim Pappin

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03-11-2011, 01:19 PM
  #900
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Aside from 2-4 EST I'll be around all evening and night thanks to my lack of social life (which is thanks to my ****ed up hand). I can take any lists to try and keep the draft going.

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