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Matt Carle

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Old
03-04-2011, 12:12 PM
  #1
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Matt Carle

Would Holmgren consider dealing Carle at the draft? The Flyers' cap situation isn't dire as early as next year but it may be good idea to create some cap flexibility. IMO losing Carle wouldn't hurt given how deep Philly is on D, question is what do Flyers fans think? And what is his perceived value in terms of picks?

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03-04-2011, 12:27 PM
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duffy9748
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As a Flyer fan I am all for moving him. Meszaros takes his spot with pronger. Not sure on value, he's a tough player to put a price on. Maybe a 23-30 1st and an okay prospect. They can bring up gustaffson next year and use some of carles salary for a bottom pairing dman via free agency.

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03-04-2011, 12:30 PM
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I'd like to see him stay, that being said I think they would like to have a guy slotted to make $2M than $3-4.
At the very least he should fetch a mid-to-late first round pick.

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03-04-2011, 01:11 PM
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I don't know why fans are so hot to trot to move good fits on their team. Carle's a nice fit on the Flyers, why bother moving him?

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03-04-2011, 01:14 PM
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Terence Peterman
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I don't know why fans are so hot to trot to move good fits on their team. Carle's a nice fit on the Flyers, why bother moving him?
Because anyone is a good fit with Chris Pronger or Kimmo Timonen. They could arguably use that money elsewhere (be it next year or saved for the future). The team also has a bunch of young guys in the AHL who should be ready soon. Aside from that, I've got no idea why Bartulis gets a three year deal if they don't plan on using him.

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03-04-2011, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I don't know why fans are so hot to trot to move good fits on their team. Carle's a nice fit on the Flyers, why bother moving him?
Well, the league came out with this neat little invention they call a salary cap.

You can't keep everyone in this day and age, and that being the case, Carle would be expendable if they feel they need some cap flexibility.

It's that simple.

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03-04-2011, 02:42 PM
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Is Coburn available in the offseason?

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03-04-2011, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnstyles View Post
Is Coburn available in the offseason?
One of Carle/Coburn is likely to be moved this year for cap reasons. I'd rather it was Carle. If anyone was willing to part with a 1st round pick at the draft, I'd be all over that.

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03-04-2011, 02:49 PM
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One of Carle/Coburn is likely to be moved this year for cap reasons. I'd rather it was Carle. If anyone was willing to part with a 1st round pick at the draft, I'd be all over that.
Would Jamie McGinn and a 2nd be enough for Coburn? I'd absolutely love him on the Sharks.

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Old
03-04-2011, 03:04 PM
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If the Flyers are going to trade anyone in the offseason for cap considerations, it should be Kimmo Timmonen. At $6.3m, he provides the least value amongst their top 5.

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03-04-2011, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If the Flyers are going to trade anyone in the offseason for cap considerations, it should be Kimmo Timmonen. At $6.3m, he provides the least value amongst their top 5.
If you believe that, then you simply don't watch the Flyers enough.

He may be a tad overpriced, but he's far more valuable to that blueline than a guy like Matt Carle.

Take Kimmo off that blueline, and its not Cup calibre, in my opinion.

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03-04-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If the Flyers are going to trade anyone in the offseason for cap considerations, it should be Kimmo Timmonen. At $6.3m, he provides the least value amongst their top 5.
Yeah that's a dumb post, Timonen is a top 15 dman in the league. When Pronger was out for that stretch, Timonen anchored the d and they didn't miss a beat. He's up there for team MVP with Giroux.

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03-04-2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
If you believe that, then you simply don't watch the Flyers enough.

He may be a tad overpriced, but he's far more valuable to that blueline than a guy like Matt Carle.

Take Kimmo off that blueline, and its not Cup calibre, in my opinion.
I watch the Flyers plenty. He contributes more than Matt Carle, but not $3m more.

You take Carle off that blueline, and you run into the same problem that the Flyers had last year in only being 4-deep. With Pronger & Timmonen both over 35 now, that's an even more problematic scenario. Carle on the other hand is 26.

You lose Kimmo Timmonen, you replace him by spending anywhere from $3-5m, and the defence is almost as good as it is this year, while being younger.

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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
Yeah that's a dumb post, Timonen is a top 15 dman in the league. When Pronger was out for that stretch, Timonen anchored the d and they didn't miss a beat. He's up there for team MVP with Giroux.
Timmonen is not a top 15 defenceman in the league anymore. He is Philly's 2nd best defenceman, but when he's the highest paid, and makes $2.3m more than the 3rd highest paid defenceman, he's the guy that should go.

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03-04-2011, 03:25 PM
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His offensive game has slowed a little, his defensive game is still at his peak.

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03-04-2011, 03:31 PM
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Timonen is our best, not second best you read it right, dman in our own zone this season.
He is worth every penny and to say he's not $3mil more worth than Matt Carle is ridiculous.
If Timonen isn't a top15 dman anymore, I'd like to hear 15 names from you.

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03-04-2011, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I watch the Flyers plenty. He contributes more than Matt Carle, but not $3m more.

You take Carle off that blueline, and you run into the same problem that the Flyers had last year in only being 4-deep. With Pronger & Timmonen both over 35 now, that's an even more problematic scenario. Carle on the other hand is 26.

You lose Kimmo Timmonen, you replace him by spending anywhere from $3-5m, and the defence is almost as good as it is this year, while being younger.



Timmonen is not a top 15 defenceman in the league anymore. He is Philly's 2nd best defenceman, but when he's the highest paid, and makes $2.3m more than the 3rd highest paid defenceman, he's the guy that should go.
You might have a point if the Flyers weren't contenders. Contenders do not trade their #2 defenseman for cap purposes. They especially don't do so when they don't have huge cap concerns. And yes, he is worth every penny of $3M more than Matt Carle.

The age is irrelevant. The Flyers' window is now. They have pissed away their 1st rounders for years, and the prospect pool is bear. They aren't trading Kimmo for a bunch of cap space they don't need. They are trying to win, and they don't win without Timmonen, in my opinion. The guy continues to be vastly underrated.

Contending teams don't just look at players' ages and contracts and ship guys out. That only happens on HF Boards. The Flyers' blueline is not Cup calibre without Kimmo, hence it ain't gonna happen unless he drastically declines.

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03-04-2011, 03:55 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I watch the Flyers plenty. He contributes more than Matt Carle, but not $3m more.

You take Carle off that blueline, and you run into the same problem that the Flyers had last year in only being 4-deep. With Pronger & Timmonen both over 35 now, that's an even more problematic scenario. Carle on the other hand is 26.

You lose Kimmo Timmonen, you replace him by spending anywhere from $3-5m, and the defence is almost as good as it is this year, while being younger.



Timmonen is not a top 15 defenceman in the league anymore. He is Philly's 2nd best defenceman, but when he's the highest paid, and makes $2.3m more than the 3rd highest paid defenceman, he's the guy that should go.
they see me trollin' they hatin'

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03-04-2011, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You might have a point if the Flyers weren't contenders. Contenders do not trade their #2 defenseman for cap purposes. They especially don't do so when they don't have huge cap concerns. And yes, he is worth every penny of $3M more than Matt Carle.

The age is irrelevant. The Flyers' window is now. They have pissed away their 1st rounders for years, and the prospect pool is bear. They aren't trading Kimmo for a bunch of cap space they don't need. They are trying to win, and they don't win without Timmonen, in my opinion. The guy continues to be vastly underrated.

Contending teams don't just look at players' ages and contracts and ship guys out. That only happens on HF Boards. The Flyers' blueline is not Cup calibre without Kimmo, hence it ain't gonna happen unless he drastically declines.
The Flyers are contenders -- which is exactly why my point stands. They don't care about who gets the better return in terms of draft picks, they care about who provides the most value right now as compared to their cap dollars.

They also want to remain contenders, and they're going to be hard-pressed to do that on a relatively shallow blueline with 2 defencemen over the age of 35. Contending teams look at how to most effectively spend their cap dollars. When you've got Pronger at $4.9, Meszaros at $4.0, Carle at $3.4, Coburn at $3.2 and Timonen at $6.3, he's providing the least in terms of value to the Flyers.

The Flyers blueline isn't cup calibre without Timonen, but they're not cup calibre if they lose any of their top 5. I'm also not advocating that they get rid of Timonen and bring in a bottom pair $1m defenceman. If the Flyers need to clear cap, they need to clear somewhere between $1-3m. I'm suggesting they lose the $6.3m guy, and spend somewhere between $3-5m getting a high quality top 4 guy (obviously a top 2 guy if we get up into the $5m range). That's a much bettter alternative than losing Carle to replace him with a $500k-$2.5m defenceman.

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03-04-2011, 04:06 PM
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Your1st+ blacker for coburn? Or just your 1st for carle? Would prefer coburn, but we do need more offense from our backend...

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03-04-2011, 04:08 PM
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I think the Avs might have some interest in Carle. He's a DU alum and good friends with Staz if I recall correctly.

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03-04-2011, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
The Flyers are contenders -- which is exactly why my point stands. They don't care about who gets the better return in terms of draft picks, they care about who provides the most value right now as compared to their cap dollars.
You're right, its not about the return. But you are also wrong, because it's not about the value to cap hit. It's simply about putting the best roster on the ice to help the team win now. Timonen does that, Carle does not. Period.

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They also want to remain contenders, and they're going to be hard-pressed to do that on a relatively shallow blueline with 2 defencemen over the age of 35.
They're fine for the next 2 years, which is basically their window. Timonen isnt' going anywhere until it's determined that the window is closed. You're barking up the wrong tree on this one.

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The Flyers blueline isn't cup calibre without Timonen, but they're not cup calibre if they lose any of their top 5.
Infinitely false. Carle can be replaced on the cheap with a capable 3rd pair defender, while Meszaros moves up with Pronger. Not quite as deep, but still Cup calibre with Pronger and Timonene there.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm also not advocating that they get rid of Timonen and bring in a bottom pair $1m defenceman. If the Flyers need to clear cap, they need to clear somewhere between $1-3m. I'm suggesting they lose the $6.3m guy, and spend somewhere between $3-5m getting a high quality top 4 guy (obviously a top 2 guy if we get up into the $5m range). That's a much bettter alternative than losing Carle to replace him with a $500k-$2.5m defenceman.
I here the reasoning, and it's not that it's dumb, I just think you vastly underrate Kimmo Timmonen. No shame in that, alot of people do it every year, and have since his time in Nashville.

Whatever, my stance is that I'd rather keep Kimmo and move out Carle, while Meszaros steps into the top-4 and a cheap contract slides into the bottom pair. The last thing I want to do is swap out Kimmo for another Carle-type defender. That's not at all how you win a Cup, in my opinion.

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03-04-2011, 04:17 PM
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I don't think he either Coburn or Carle has to be moved and I think it might depend on the 3rd pairing situation.

If they're comfortable with one of our young guys on the third pairing, and can find a vet like O'Donnell to anchor that pair they may bump Mezsaros up and trade one of Carle or Coburn.

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03-04-2011, 04:20 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
You're right, its not about the return. But you are also wrong, because it's not about the value to cap hit. It's simply about putting the best roster on the ice to help the team win now. Timonen does that, Carle does not. Period.


They're fine for the next 2 years, which is basically their window. Timonen isnt' going anywhere until it's determined that the window is closed. You're barking up the wrong tree on this one.


Infinitely false. Carle can be replaced on the cheap with a capable 3rd pair defender, while Meszaros moves up with Pronger. Not quite as deep, but still Cup calibre with Pronger and Timonene there.



I here the reasoning, and it's not that it's dumb, I just think you vastly underrate Kimmo Timmonen. No shame in that, alot of people do it every year, and have since his time in Nashville.

Whatever, my stance is that I'd rather keep Kimmo and move out Carle, while Meszaros steps into the top-4 and a cheap contract slides into the bottom pair. The last thing I want to do is swap out Kimmo for another Carle-type defender. That's not at all how you win a Cup, in my opinion.
Icing the best roster means spending the ~$60m most effectively. Timonen is a better defeneman than Carle, but Carle and $3m spent elsewhere is better than Timonen.

They won't be fine if they greatly reduce the depth on their blueline. Philly got very luck last year by only missing the top 4 for a combined 3 games IIRC. This year, depth has been key for them allowing Pronger to play a much lighter workload. When he was hurt, it was no problem because they still had 4 top 4 defencemen.

Carle cannot be replaced "on the cheap" -- that's the mistake Philly made last year in throwing garbage on their 3rd pair and having to play Pronger-Timonen to a ridiculous extent. Timonen on the other hand can be replaced. They move him out, and remain 5-deep by signing a guy like Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Markov, Wisniewski; or somebody through trade. Philly has the top end taken care of with Pronger... they need the depth that having 5 bonafide top 4 defencemen provides.

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Old
03-04-2011, 04:22 PM
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Why do I think Carle and Carter are going to the Leafs in the off-season?

Besides the fact that Burke would back a whole truck-load of picks off for them...

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03-04-2011, 04:26 PM
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Why do I think Carle and Carter are going to the Leafs in the off-season?
Seriously?they just signed carter to a long term contract, and personally I don't think we need anymore shoot first players... of course I wouldn't complain but our #1 center NEEDS to be a pass first guy. It'll never happen imho

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