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Old
03-04-2011, 09:40 PM
  #51
seanlinden
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Rather than going point by point.... I'll leave it at this.

If Philly has to reduce the cap hit on the blueline to cover other parts of the team, you guys are nuts if you think the guy they move will be the 2nd cheapest and the guy who matches up perfectly with Chris Pronger. They're not going to make the same mistake of running a top-4 heavy defence with Pronger & Timonen 2 years older than the last time they did it (and were extremely lucky to not get hurt). Having 5 top 4 defencemen is huge for them, as it's allowed them to keep Pronger/Timonen's minutes way down this year, and deal with an injury no problem.

We heard similar things about Simon Gagne and how valuable he was to the Flyers, until of course he was traded. The emotional attachment to Timonen is obviously huge, but a team has to be managed objectively and when you've got good contracts like Pronger @ $4.9, Meszaros @ $4.0, Carle at $3.4 and Coburn at $3.2, objectively, there's no way that it any makes sense to move a guy like Carle over Timonen. Meszaros? maybe, but with his age and long term contract that doesn't seem like a great idea.

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Old
03-04-2011, 11:54 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If Philly has to reduce the cap hit on the blueline to cover other parts of the team, you guys are nuts if you think the guy they move will be the 2nd cheapest and the guy who matches up perfectly with Chris Pronger.

They're not going to make the same mistake of running a top-4 heavy defence with Pronger & Timonen 2 years older than the last time they did it (and were extremely lucky to not get hurt). Having 5 top 4 defencemen is huge for them, as it's allowed them to keep Pronger/Timonen's minutes way down this year, and deal with an injury no problem.

We heard similar things about Simon Gagne and how valuable he was to the Flyers, until of course he was traded. The emotional attachment to Timonen is obviously huge, but a team has to be managed objectively and when you've got good contracts like Pronger @ $4.9, Meszaros @ $4.0, Carle at $3.4 and Coburn at $3.2, objectively, there's no way that it any makes sense to move a guy like Carle over Timonen. Meszaros? maybe, but with his age and long term contract that doesn't seem like a great idea.

I've seen you state that Kimmo is the least valuable of our top-5 defenseman as it pertains to cap hit vs performance. I've seen you state that Coburn is our 2nd best shutdown defenseman. I've seen you state that Timonen can't shut down top forwards because he's not physical. I've seen you state that Pronger is capable of shutting down top forwards because he does play physical. I've seen you state that losing Carle would be disastrous because of his "chemistry" with Pronger.

Seriously, you are wrong on every one of those statements.

Whatever, thanks for educating those of us who watch the Flyers for 82 games a year, season after season. Don't know what we would do without your expertise, and it's always good to be enlightened.

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Old
03-05-2011, 12:02 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
I've seen you state that Kimmo is the least valuable of our top-5 defenseman as it pertains to cap hit vs performance. I've seen you state that Coburn is our 2nd best shutdown defenseman. I've seen you state that Timonen can't shut down top forwards because he's not physical. I've seen you state that Pronger is capable of shutting down top forwards because he does play physical. I've seen you state that losing Carle would be disastrous because of his "chemistry" with Pronger.

Seriously, you are wrong on every one of those statements.

Whatever, thanks for educating those of us who watch the Flyers for 82 games a year, season after season. Don't know what we would do without your expertise, and it's always good to be enlightened.
Kimmo is the least valuable of the top 5 on a cap hit to performance ratio.
Coburn is the 2nd best physical defenceman they have.
Timonen isn't capable of fully disrupting the game of other star players.
Pronger is capable of doing so because he does mix it up physically.
Losing Carle would be very problematic because of his chemistry with Pronger, and the fact that it would destroy the depth that was a problem for them before they got Meszaros.

Seriously, I'm right on every one of those statements. Carle's going nowhere, if Holmgren has to clear cap in the offseason from the blueline, he'll look at it objectively and realize that his team is best off if they move Timonen and bring in a defenceman in the $3-5m range, putting them in a position to not only be a cup favourite next year, but for the long run aswell.... just like he did with Simon Gagne despite how "valuable" he was to the Flyers last year, especially in the playoffs.

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Old
03-05-2011, 02:06 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Kimmo is the least valuable of the top 5 on a cap hit to performance ratio.
Wrong.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Coburn is the 2nd best physical defenceman they have.
Maybe, but that wasn't the statement you made earlier, now was it?

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Timonen isn't capable of fully disrupting the game of other star players.
Very, very wrong.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Pronger is capable of doing so because he does mix it up physically.
Do you even watch Pronger anymore? He does it by being positionally strong with great stick work. He doesn't even need to be physical most of the time, and most of the time he isn't. His greatest strength, and the reason he is still able to play the game at such a high level at his age, is because he doesn't expend alot of physical energy.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Losing Carle would be very problematic because of his chemistry with Pronger, and the fact that it would destroy the depth that was a problem for them before they got Meszaros.
Oh please, you are making Carle sound like a freakin' allstar. Pronger would survive without Carle, and so would the Flyers. You are vastly overstating things in this regard. Seriously.

Yes, the depth would take a hit moving out Carle and playing a guy like Bartulis, but moving out Timonen for another Carle type player would be a bigger disaster. Timonen is an anchor, Carle is not. You seem to be missing that little tidbit in your analysis.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Seriously, I'm right on every one of those statements. Carle's going nowhere, if Holmgren has to clear cap in the offseason from the blueline, he'll look at it objectively and realize that his team is best off if they move Timonen and bring in a defenceman in the $3-5m range, putting them in a position to not only be a cup favourite next year, but for the long run aswell.... just like he did with Simon Gagne despite how "valuable" he was to the Flyers last year, especially in the playoffs.
Fine, quoted. See you after the offseason when we can revisit this little guarantee.

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Old
03-05-2011, 10:35 AM
  #55
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Did someone seriously put Coburn and physical in the same sentence?

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Old
03-05-2011, 10:55 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
Did someone seriously put Coburn and physical in the same sentence?
yep, same guy who is shipping timonen out of philly

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
Did someone seriously put Coburn and physical in the same sentence?
Also the same guy who said Pronger wont be good without Carle.

Thing is, he is wrong on every single point, and every Flyer fan will agree with me. But to him, we are all wrong and he is 100% right. Hilarious. Ilove when other team's fans act like they know more.

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:14 AM
  #58
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Why does everyone hate Carle? He's better than Coburn and Coburn is just plain stupid

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:34 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If the Flyers are going to trade anyone in the offseason for cap considerations, it should be Kimmo Timmonen. At $6.3m, he provides the least value amongst their top 5.
This is, without a doubt, the stupidest post I have ever seen on the internet. Ever.

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Old
03-05-2011, 11:40 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Fine, quoted. See you after the offseason when we can revisit this little guarantee.
Please, quote me on it.... and then bring it up when Holmgren takes off the emotional glasses to manage his team objectively.

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Old
03-05-2011, 12:39 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Please, quote me on it.... and then bring it up when Holmgren takes off the emotional glasses to manage his team objectively.
It's not about being emotional, I and others just simply don't agree with you. The emotional angle you've taken to invalidate what most of us are saying is simply a cop out to dismiss the fact that people are pointing out false statements you keep making in this thread.

You've made some pretty inaccurate statements about almost every defenseman on our current roster, which makes it hard to take your reasoning very seriously. Your reasoning alone was solid enough for a debate, but you simply ruined it by proving you don't have a very good grasp on the capabilities and strengths and weaknesses of our defense core as a whole.

I've watched the Flyers for over 30 years, and caught damn near every single game played during that time period. I have a pretty good grasp on the players that have played, and are currently playing, for Philadelphia.

Emotional attachment to players? I'm about as disconnected from emotion as you can get from anything in life. I care only about the success of the team, and this team will be far more successful keeping Timonen and moving out Carle than the alternative.

You disagree, and that's fine, but stop making statements about players that are totally false. If the Flyers decide to move out a defender this offseason, and that defender is Kimmo, then I will come back and eat crow, I have no problem with that. Will you do the same if Carle is moved?

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03-05-2011, 01:16 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
It's not about being emotional, I and others just simply don't agree with you. The emotional angle you've taken to invalidate what most of us are saying is simply a cop out to dismiss the fact that people are pointing out false statements you keep making in this thread.

You've made some pretty inaccurate statements about almost every defenseman on our current roster, which makes it hard to take your reasoning very seriously. Your reasoning alone was solid enough for a debate, but you simply ruined it by proving you don't have a very good grasp on the capabilities and strengths and weaknesses of our defense core as a whole.

I've watched the Flyers for over 30 years, and caught damn near every single game played during that time period. I have a pretty good grasp on the players that have played, and are currently playing, for Philadelphia.

Emotional attachment to players? I'm about as disconnected from emotion as you can get from anything in life. I care only about the success of the team, and this team will be far more successful keeping Timonen and moving out Carle than the alternative.

You disagree, and that's fine, but stop making statements about players that are totally false. If the Flyers decide to move out a defender this offseason, and that defender is Kimmo, then I will come back and eat crow, I have no problem with that. Will you do the same if Carle is moved?
Your statements are far less accurate than mine. Like I said, I'll leave it at that, and feel free to come back when Holmgren decides to manage his team objectively. The only reason to keep Timonen over Carle is the fact that he's a more important defenceman right now. Simon Gagne was a more important forward than Nikolai Zherdev could ever hope to be, but of course Zherdev cost nowhere near as much. When the offseason comes, Holmgren will have to manage his team with the cap hit in mind.

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Old
03-05-2011, 01:28 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Your statements are far less accurate than mine.
Care to point out the inaccuracies?

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Like I said, I'll leave it at that, and feel free to come back when Holmgren decides to manage his team objectively.
And if, in his infinite wisdom, Holmgren decides to move Carle and not Kimmo?

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The only reason to keep Timonen over Carle is the fact that he's a more important defenceman right now.
Yea, not like that's a big deal to a team that wants to win a Cup or anything. Minor detail.

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Simon Gagne was a more important forward than Nikolai Zherdev could ever hope to be, but of course Zherdev cost nowhere near as much.
Gagne wasn't moved for Zherdev. Gagne was moved to clear cap space to trade for Meszaros. Zherdev was a filler forward, and more often than not finds himself a healthy scratch. He's simply depth.

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When the offseason comes, Holmgren will have to manage his team with the cap hit in mind.
And again I ask: What if he manages the cap by trading Carle and not Timonen?

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03-05-2011, 01:30 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Shadow Flyer View Post
Care to point out the inaccuracies?


And if, in his infinite wisdom, Holmgren decides to move Carle and not Kimmo?


Yea, not like that's a big deal to a team that wants to win a Cup or anything. Minor detail.


Gagne wasn't moved for Zherdev. Gagne was moved to clear cap space to trade for Meszaros. Zherdev was a filler forward, and more often than not finds himself a healthy scratch.


And again I ask: What if he manages the cap by trading Carle and not Timonen?
Basically every counter point you've made has been inaccurate.

Holmgren isn't going to move Carle, so it's a moot point. Gagne was moved to clear cap for Meszaros. If they need to clear cap for a goaltender, Timonen will be the guy mvoed.

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03-05-2011, 01:42 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Basically every counter point you've made has been inaccurate.

Holmgren isn't going to move Carle, so it's a moot point. Gagne was moved to clear cap for Meszaros. If they need to clear cap for a goaltender, Timonen will be the guy mvoed.
They won't clear cap for a goalie. Bobrovsky is our man. Timonen is a linchpin member of this team. Moving Timonen to keep Carle would be like moving Crosby to make room for Matt Cooke. Timonen is still a top 15 defenseman in this league; he's earning his salary as far as I'm concerned. It's not like he's some decrepit albatross.

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Old
03-05-2011, 02:00 PM
  #66
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Coburn is the second-most physical defenseman on the Flyers? He's a distant 3rd behind Pronger and Meszaros, IMHO. That isn't counting Nick "Bull in a China Shop" Boynton, either.

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03-05-2011, 02:11 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Basically every counter point you've made has been inaccurate.
Translation: You are right and everyone else in this thread is wrong. Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Holmgren isn't going to move Carle, so it's a moot point. Gagne was moved to clear cap for Meszaros. If they need to clear cap for a goaltender, Timonen will be the guy mvoed.
Translation: You won't put your ass on the line like I did by stating you'd come back and eat crow if Carle is moved and not Kimmo.

And who the hell is talking about a goaltender? We're talking about a bit of extra cap space to get Leino under contract, if it is even necessary. It may very well not be necessary, but if it is, it won't be Kimmo getting moved, it will be Carle.

Every single Flyers fan is telling you the same exact things. Do you just think you're the smartest guy in the room, or what? Everyone else is just clueless except for you?

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Old
03-05-2011, 02:13 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
Did someone seriously put Coburn and physical in the same sentence?
Um, what Coburn are you watching? He's tied for third on the team in hits.

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Old
03-05-2011, 02:16 PM
  #69
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Coburn is the second-most physical defenseman on the Flyers? He's a distant 3rd behind Pronger and Meszaros, IMHO. That isn't counting Nick "Bull in a China Shop" Boynton, either.
Well, he has to pretend that Coburn is really physical, otherwise his assessment that he's our 2nd best shutdown defender would not be accurate.

He's a better shutdown defenseman than Kimmo because of his physicality. How can one argue with that logic?

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03-05-2011, 02:35 PM
  #70
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Translation: You are right and everyone else in this thread is wrong. Got it.


Translation: You won't put your ass on the line like I did by stating you'd come back and eat crow if Carle is moved and not Kimmo.

And who the hell is talking about a goaltender? We're talking about a bit of extra cap space to get Leino under contract, if it is even necessary. It may very well not be necessary, but if it is, it won't be Kimmo getting moved, it will be Carle.

Every single Flyers fan is telling you the same exact things. Do you just think you're the smartest guy in the room, or what? Everyone else is just clueless except for you?
If I wasn't right, I wouldn't have posted it.

I'll problably be here in 4 months, so feel free to dig this thread up.

Every single Flyers fan said the same thing about Gagne and look where he is today. You've gotta remove the emotional attachment to a pllayer.

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03-05-2011, 03:03 PM
  #71
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If I wasn't right, I wouldn't have posted it.
What you posted about Timonen being moved isn't fact, but rather, your opinion. Pity you don't seem to get the difference.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'll problably be here in 4 months, so feel free to dig this thread up.
No need, you are always right, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it, eh? I could sure use the winning lottery tickets for the next jackpot, if you feel so inclined.

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Every single Flyers fan said the same thing about Gagne and look where he is today. You've gotta remove the emotional attachment to a pllayer.
You keep going on and on about emotional attachment. If you had the first clue what I do for a living, you'd realize that "emotional attachment" isn't even in my vocabulary. I don't get emotionally attached to anyone or anything, and I could give a rats ass about who plays for the Flyers as long as they win.

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03-05-2011, 03:07 PM
  #72
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As a Pens fan, this seanlinden guy is out to lunch. Timonen's by far their best defenseman. When you're talking about an elite top pairing D-man versus a solid top 4 guy like Carle, it's not as simple as breaking it down economically. Timonen's value to the team versus Carle's value is not a simple measure of contract versus contract. To replace what Timonen brings, you'd have to pay somebody else the same amount, so there's no point in getting rid of him. Carle can't even begin to duplicate what Timonen brings.

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03-05-2011, 06:04 PM
  #73
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Um, what Coburn are you watching? He's tied for third on the team in hits.
I've never been a fan of the hits statistic. It seems every scorekeeper in the league has a different definition of what constitutes a hit. Coburn has been playing the body more often, but he doesn't exactly have a reputation of being very physical. One of my biggest qualms with him is that he's built like a train but hits like a wallaby.

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03-05-2011, 08:22 PM
  #74
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03-06-2011, 12:08 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
I've never been a fan of the hits statistic. It seems every scorekeeper in the league has a different definition of what constitutes a hit. Coburn has been playing the body more often, but he doesn't exactly have a reputation of being very physical. One of my biggest qualms with him is that he's built like a train but hits like a wallaby.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree I guess. He does a great job using his strength and speed to defend, particularly in transition IMO

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