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Old
03-09-2011, 10:56 PM
  #101
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by vocks10 View Post
Fine, I was just comparing stats for each the year after they were drafted. I don't think Malkin would have put up 85 in his first year in the NHL after being drafted (had been an NHL ).
Crosby put up over 100 at 18. I can't see why Malkin wouldn't have had at least 85 at that age as well. Similar talent, and Malkin to me is more talented overall to be honest.

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I'm not saying he is dependent on Crosby, just that it's a lot easier to put up points with someone like Crosby on your team and that is undeniable. Case and point in the Finals Babcock didn't know which C to match lines with his Zetterberg/Datysuk line, matched with Crosby most of the series, lost the series to Pitts and Malkin won the CS in a big part because of his performance in that series. You seem to put a lot of stock into the dead weight wingers, but his high point seasons the team did have wingers like Malone, Sykora, Recchi, Hossa (granted for 1/2 season) who cycled through as his linemates, not to mention the occasional time (and PP time) with Sid. Not that they are Jagr like (well Crosby and Hossa are) but not exactly chopped liver all the time (recently though, an emphatic yes from me).
Check who Malkin's wingers were when he won the CS and AR.

Again, tell me Hall could do that with what Malkin had to work with.

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You can't compare what Tavares, Stamkos, etc had to deal with to what Hall had to in Edmonton even remotely. I'm not saying what Malkin went through was a walk in the park, just that both athletes had a ton to deal with when playing their rookie seasons. You can't use one as proof of your point and ignore the other.
Are you kidding me? At least Hall had talent around him and two other highly touted rookies as well who came in with him to help alleviate the pressure...

Look who was around to help Tavares his rookie year... uh.... uh... it is almost comical how bad that Isles team was.

Stamkos got benched his rookie year and had a hell of a time fighting through the adversity he faced.

How did Hall have it any harder than them?

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You can't fault Hall for this, look at the teams. One had Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, Fleury, Staal, Recchi. The other, Hall, Whitney (also on those Pens teams coincidentally), Hemsky (for half a season), and as big a fan I am of the Oilers youth they aren't on the same page. Put Malkin on the Islanders, Rangers, Coyotes teams from that draft year and I'll argue he doesn't have either trophy. He got drafted into a good situation in Pitts and to his full credit took advantage and the league by storm.
Funny that the Pens finally made the playoffs after a 5 year absence in Malkin's rookie year...

I wonder if he had anything to do with that?

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Again, I was not comparing. I try to refrain from that because no 2 situations are alike, it's all just speculation (which is what HF is great for). But I think you're overvaluing Malkin. He can be a top 5 talent but I'll argue in the past 2 years he's maybe been top 10 and that's generous (in fact I could rattle 10 other players I'd rather have on my team this point going forward than Malkin). Give Hall 3-4 years and I think (hope) he will be considered a top 15 player. And while I agree Malkin might have more talent, the competitiveness and drive in Hall is what makes me so optimistic of his future.
Malkin has been hurt and played with absolute scrubs the last two years (the Feds/Talbot magic suddenly wore off). So ya, his numbers went down. That happens when you don't play 82 games a season and spend your healthy time babysitting offensively retarded players who sponge off you.

Also, please don't tell me Hall's "drive" is any better than Malkins.

I really like Hall... a lot actually... but you put him with the grubs Malkin has had to play with and he wouldn't come anywhere close to Malkin's numbers.

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I agree with you in 80 points is a compliment and nothing to sneeze at as I would be extremely happy with it as Halls production. Those other points we simply disagree on. My main issue is the dismissal you have for Hall after 65 games and the pedestal Malkin is on. Malkin can be a great player who has some great accolades, but to emphatically say Hall won't ever hold a jockstrap to him (and is an insult comparing Hall to Malkin) after 3/4 of a season for those reasons is unfair.
I put Malkin on a pedestal? Uh... let's get one thing straight ok? You and other Oiler fans were the ones discounting what he has accomplished while somehow projecting Hall to be this great player who will produce the same numbers as Malkin.

Basically you are trying to tell me Hall will be a better player than guys like Getzlaf and Parise, who are the only two players in the NHL I would ever want to see Malkin traded for.

Both are absolute beasts, both have unreal vision, hands, determination and hockey sense. Yet you and other Oiler fans are essentially saying Hall will be better than them, because neither of these two have ever broken 100 points in the NHL like Malkin, who has done it twice.

Hall I don't ever see being as beastly as Parise and Getzlaf, let alone being as good as Malkin.

Hall will never have the vision and playmaking skills Malkin does, which means he is going to have to put up a **** load of goals to be breaking 100 points.

50, 60 goals each season isn't unrealistic right? *cough*

Way too much delusional thinking going on in here about Hall.

Hall is going to be a fantastic player, but if you think he will ever be in Malkin's class, then you need to jump on the reality train when it pulls in...

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Old
03-10-2011, 02:27 AM
  #102
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This is ridiculous. Just for Ray Shero to pick up the phone, we would have to start with Hall, Eberle, MPS + 2011 1st. The Oilers organization would be destroyed. No point trading your core for a player who would probably bolt from Edmonton the moment he realizes he's traded there. The Penguins can keep Malkin and all he's worth.

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Old
03-10-2011, 03:03 AM
  #103
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If Pens are trading a center away, It should be Staal, not Malkin

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Old
03-10-2011, 03:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Vyruz Reaper View Post
If Pens are trading a center away, It should be Staal, not Malkin
But Staal wont get MPS or Eberle because he's not as good as them.

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Old
03-10-2011, 03:58 AM
  #105
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Pens are in a win now situation. Oilers are in a rebuilding phase. Malkin is much more valuable to the pens then he is to the oilers, as he can help the team win now. Malkin won't bring the Oilers from bottom cellars to playoff team. The young unproven players, prospects and early pick are much more valuable to the oilers, as they can be molded, develop chemistry, and will all be at the top of their game at the same time.


Playoff teams don't trade their top players to rebuilding teams for picks & prospects, it just doesn't happen.

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Old
03-10-2011, 06:54 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Pens are in a win now situation. Oilers are in a rebuilding phase. Malkin is much more valuable to the pens then he is to the oilers, as he can help the team win now. Malkin won't bring the Oilers from bottom cellars to playoff team. The young unproven players, prospects and early pick are much more valuable to the oilers, as they can be molded, develop chemistry, and will all be at the top of their game at the same time.


Playoff teams don't trade their top players to rebuilding teams for picks & prospects, it just doesn't happen.
That's a bingo.

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Old
03-10-2011, 11:49 AM
  #107
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To Mr. Jiggyfly...

I'm not flat out disagreeing with you. I don't (and never have) said Hall is on pace to be as dominant a player as Malkin (but yes other Oil fans have). To reiterate my main point, for you to dismiss a player (any player, Hall or any future top pick) so adamantly after they have played 65 games is absurd. According to that logic Stamkos after his first year was a max 80 point player because he didn't put up 85 points in his rookie year. I think it's only fair to let the players develop and reflect. It would require some big development steps for Hall to be the dominant player Malkin has been, and the odds are long that at one point in his career he will be considered a top 3 player in the world (even if it is Dumb and Dumber one in a million chance). However emphatically stating you know without a doubt he will never approach that, well sir I ask you for lottery numbers since you can see the future.

And yes, Hall has had more pressure on him than Tavares and Stamkos. Yes Tavavres didn't (And still doesn't) have top notch linemates but the situation was similar to the Oilers with a young rebuilding team. Stamkos played on a team that already had Vinny and St. Louis in a locale where (to be kind) hockey isn't the most followed sport in town. Hall has basically been asked to lead the team back to the glory days and be Edmonton's next Gretz. In a town where almost everyone knows who he is. The pressure to play in Edmonton as a #1 pick is much more intense then on the Island or Tampa. There might be Jordan and Magnus, but it's undeniable he is the focal point. You can't say Hall has the talent around him while he is still playing on the last place team.

And yes, the Pens making the playoffs was all Malkin in his rookie season. The development of Crosby, Malone, Fleury or the presence of Staal contributed nothing. That is why I stated the Malkin on a pedestal comment. According to you he is responsible for everything good that has happened to the Penguins. Again I take nothing away from him, he is a great player. But as you know hockey is a team sport where individuals all contribute to the success, and on those teams Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, etc all had huge contributions but take away any of them and the team doesn't win a Cup.

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Old
03-10-2011, 12:04 PM
  #108
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by vocks10 View Post
To Mr. Jiggyfly...

I'm not flat out disagreeing with you. I don't (and never have) said Hall is on pace to be as dominant a player as Malkin (but yes other Oil fans have). To reiterate my main point, for you to dismiss a player (any player, Hall or any future top pick) so adamantly after they have played 65 games is absurd. According to that logic Stamkos after his first year was a max 80 point player because he didn't put up 85 points in his rookie year. I think it's only fair to let the players develop and reflect. It would require some big development steps for Hall to be the dominant player Malkin has been, and the odds are long that at one point in his career he will be considered a top 3 player in the world (even if it is Dumb and Dumber one in a million chance). However emphatically stating you know without a doubt he will never approach that, well sir I ask you for lottery numbers since you can see the future.
Well sir Malkin IS a proven commodity who has actually scored over 100 points twice and won awards and been a dominant player. I can find a handful of other players I can claim "may be as good as Malkin one day", but the reality is the chances of that happening are nil.

I've watched Hall enough to know he isn't going to be an elite playmaker who will rack up 70+ assists a season.

So unless something dramatic happens with his playmaking over the next few years (extremely doubtful), he isn't going to be in Malkin's class.

I feel beyond comfortable saying that, given that currently only two other players in the league are as talented as Malkin.

Quote:
And yes, Hall has had more pressure on him than Tavares and Stamkos. Yes Tavavres didn't (And still doesn't) have top notch linemates but the situation was similar to the Oilers with a young rebuilding team. Stamkos played on a team that already had Vinny and St. Louis in a locale where (to be kind) hockey isn't the most followed sport in town. Hall has basically been asked to lead the team back to the glory days and be Edmonton's next Gretz. In a town where almost everyone knows who he is. The pressure to play in Edmonton as a #1 pick is much more intense then on the Island or Tampa. There might be Jordan and Magnus, but it's undeniable he is the focal point. You can't say Hall has the talent around him while he is still playing on the last place team.
Again, Hall came in with a class of star rookies, which took a lot more pressure off him than if he came in by himself and was expected to carry the franchise ala Lemieux.

Trying to make it out like Hall has had to overcome something other rookies in his shoes haven't, is pretty weak and delusional.

Quote:
And yes, the Pens making the playoffs was all Malkin in his rookie season. The development of Crosby, Malone, Fleury or the presence of Staal contributed nothing. That is why I stated the Malkin on a pedestal comment. According to you he is responsible for everything good that has happened to the Penguins. Again I take nothing away from him, he is a great player. But as you know hockey is a team sport where individuals all contribute to the success, and on those teams Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, etc all had huge contributions but take away any of them and the team doesn't win a Cup.
Every successful team is made up of a core of talented players - that is hockey 101.

I watched Malkin's rookie year - I know the impact he had on that team.

Did you? It is doubtful given your response.

You just go ahead and call me out when Hall is even close to being at the level of a Parise or Getzlaf, let alone Malkin.

I won't hold my breathe waiting though.

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Old
03-10-2011, 01:27 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can find a handful of other players I can claim "may be as good as Malkin one day", but the reality is the chances of that happening are nil.
My last response, maybe... If you're so adamant and sure of yourself regarding players, why are you on these boards, you should be a scout (are you a professional scout??). Since you're an expert I'll take it you knew Kesler, Parise, Getzlaf, Stamkos were all going to become the players they are before they turned 20.

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Again, Hall came in with a class of star rookies, which took a lot more pressure off him than if he came in by himself and was expected to carry the franchise ala Lemieux.Trying to make it out like Hall has had to overcome something other rookies in his shoes haven't, is pretty weak and delusional.
This entire debate began when you tried to point out Malkin overcame something others haven't. My point is everyone deals with changes, pressures, whatever and by you pointing out Malkins' issues as more detrimental than what others experienced was weak and delusional. You believe his transition was much harder than others, I don't, whatever, we disagree but they all have stuff to deal with.

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You just go ahead and call me out when Hall is even close to being at the level of a Parise or Getzlaf, let alone Malkin.

I won't hold my breathe waiting though.
Neither will I, but I won't put a ceiling on a player and so steadfastly paint them into a box after 65 professional games. You return to the points of Malkin vs Hall, and me undervaluing Malkin which to me is moot (and in the later not true). I never said he'd be as good as any of those, just he has a chance and depending on his progression, team, and luck maybe be able to find himself among very best. And being an Oiler fan I hope he continues to improve but I am not already counting his Hart trophies.

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Old
03-10-2011, 02:23 PM
  #110
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by vocks10 View Post
My last response, maybe... If you're so adamant and sure of yourself regarding players, why are you on these boards, you should be a scout (are you a professional scout??). Since you're an expert I'll take it you knew Kesler, Parise, Getzlaf, Stamkos were all going to become the players they are before they turned 20.
Oh nos... that really bothered me...

I'm shocked someone who has such a poor argument would resort to this... I couldn't see this coming...

Quote:
This entire debate began when you tried to point out Malkin overcame something others haven't. My point is everyone deals with changes, pressures, whatever and by you pointing out Malkins' issues as more detrimental than what others experienced was weak and delusional. You believe his transition was much harder than others, I don't, whatever, we disagree but they all have stuff to deal with.
Anyone with a shred of common sense can tell the difference between the typical pressure a high draft pick like Hall endured, and what Malkin went through.

The situations aren't even comparable.

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Neither will I, but I won't put a ceiling on a player and so steadfastly paint them into a box after 65 professional games. You return to the points of Malkin vs Hall, and me undervaluing Malkin which to me is moot (and in the later not true). I never said he'd be as good as any of those, just he has a chance and depending on his progression, team, and luck maybe be able to find himself among very best. And being an Oiler fan I hope he continues to improve but I am not already counting his Hart trophies.
Ya so insulting to say he won't break 100 points, let alone do it twice like Malkin.

The disrespect I've shown him only saying he will be around an 80 point guy and won't be better than elite players like Getzlaf and Parise.

I'd rather be a realist with expectations that aren't delusional... but that's just me.

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Old
03-12-2011, 09:23 AM
  #111
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i been reading all the posts and i think both sides are right here:
From EDM perspective they're right as to malkins vaue not being as high right now as it has been in the past, AND 8.7 cap hit.. but at the same time understand that malkin is a #1 center... he thrives as being the #1. the pens had him pegged at second line winger... and when he was playing center he had wingers like asham and talbot...i truely believe malkin will get traded, and he will be a #1 with real wingers, and he will be beast again...

From a pens perspective... Conn Smyth... nuff said.. lol

If he were to be traded i think EDM would be a prime trading partner for malkin... Eberle and a first would honestly get it done for me... The oilers get malkin.. they win the deal.. the pens get a prospect in eberlewho will score 20 goals as a rookie, this kid is for real.. we get a top 5 pick to draft another winger to one day play with sid.. AND before i get ripped by my fellow pens fanes... we get 8 mill in cap space... we would alrdy have our defense and goalies set, our centers set, juts need to sign some crazy depth with that 8 mill and were back in the finals...

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Old
03-12-2011, 01:28 PM
  #112
Dr Danglefest
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Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
The Malkin conversation starts with Eberle and Hall.
good one

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Old
03-12-2011, 06:31 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Well sir Malkin IS a proven commodity who has actually scored over 100 points twice and won awards and been a dominant player. I can find a handful of other players I can claim "may be as good as Malkin one day", but the reality is the chances of that happening are nil.

I've watched Hall enough to know he isn't going to be an elite playmaker who will rack up 70+ assists a season.

So unless something dramatic happens with his playmaking over the next few years (extremely doubtful), he isn't going to be in Malkin's class.

I feel beyond comfortable saying that, given that currently only two other players in the league are as talented as Malkin.



Again, Hall came in with a class of star rookies, which took a lot more pressure off him than if he came in by himself and was expected to carry the franchise ala Lemieux.

Trying to make it out like Hall has had to overcome something other rookies in his shoes haven't, is pretty weak and delusional.



Every successful team is made up of a core of talented players - that is hockey 101.

I watched Malkin's rookie year - I know the impact he had on that team.

Did you? It is doubtful given your response.

You just go ahead and call me out when Hall is even close to being at the level of a Parise or Getzlaf, let alone Malkin.

I won't hold my breathe waiting though.
Take a breath. Geno has done nothing to prove that he will sustain his initial numbers.

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03-12-2011, 07:02 PM
  #114
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But Hall has proven that he can be better than Geno?

Hall is a level or two below Malkin at this point, and I just don't think his game lends itself to being a 100 point player like Malkin has been a couple times in his young career.

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03-12-2011, 07:31 PM
  #115
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Grod View Post
Take a breath
I'm breathing just fine...

I'm not the one suffering from a lack of oxygen in here like a few others...

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Geno has done nothing to prove that he will sustain his initial numbers.
Really?

Except to put up stellar numbers 3 seasons in a row, win numerous awards, then oddly enough when he got injured and had ass linemates, then missed 15 games, his numbers went down (for him).

Yet he still put up well over a point a game, which Hall will be lucky to do, even when he is healthy, has played 82 games, and has good linemates.

Hall is not and never will be in Malkin's class and will be lucky, damn lucky, to be as good as Parise or Getzlaf.

Oh wait I said this already...

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Old
03-12-2011, 07:36 PM
  #116
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as an oiler fan I agree


Hemsky--when healthy can be a point a game man
Gagner--could be a good second line center

you don't get that for a guy that scored over 100pts twice

to even get the PEns attention that oilers would need to start with Hall or the 2011 first overall pick before adding Gagner and Hemsky and oilers wont do that deal
A guy who is also 23 years old and is a Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Conn Smyth winner.

Shero wouldn't move Malkin for anything less then Hall + EDM 1st

Real life isn't Hfboards when anything that happened before a year or even less isn't relevant.

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03-12-2011, 07:58 PM
  #117
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I think it's a fair return for Geno, however give him Neal and a $2 million winger on the other side and you're much better off keeping him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Grod View Post
Take a breath. Geno has done nothing to prove that he will sustain his initial numbers.
Lawl. Easy to bash the guy who all of a sudden can't put up 100 points alongside 10 goal scorers. What a coincidence.

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03-12-2011, 08:42 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Tarasenko View Post
A guy who is also 23 years old and is a Stanley Cup, Art Ross, and Conn Smyth winner.

Shero wouldn't move Malkin for anything less then Hall + EDM 1st

Real life isn't Hfboards when anything that happened before a year or even less isn't relevant.
Real life isnt hfboards where a salary cap doesnt exist (according to you) .. Good luck ever trading malkin and that contract without getting a big cap hit coming back especially with his slide in stats and inability to stay healthy two years running.

Is next years Malkin the 100+ point player 4 years ago or is he the injured only plays 67 games last year currently has 37 points in 43 games and is -4 this year. Its not like he is dynamite on the faceoff or pk either.

Malkin's career is trending downwards two years in a row, if he doesnt rebound he might be the most expensive 60 point player in the nhl or he could become a top 3 player in the world (he currently isnt) like he used to be. I think its a legit risk that is getting brushed aside as if people are questioning god or something when caphit/injuries/declining production are legit fears

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03-12-2011, 09:01 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
Real life isnt hfboards where a salary cap doesnt exist (according to you) .. Good luck ever trading malkin and that contract without getting a big cap hit coming back especially with his slide in stats and inability to stay healthy two years running.

Is next years Malkin the 100+ point player 4 years ago or is he the injured only plays 67 games last year currently has 37 points in 43 games and is -4 this year. Its not like he is dynamite on the faceoff or pk either.

Malkin's career is trending downwards two years in a row, if he doesnt rebound he might be the most expensive 60 point player in the nhl or he could become a top 3 player in the world (he currently isnt) like he used to be. I think its a legit risk that is getting brushed aside as if people are questioning god or something when caphit/injuries/declining production are legit fears
Let other people worry. His upside - which he has shown consistently - is enough for Pens fans to swat away any less-than-spectacular offers.

Trading Malkin away after a half-season low ebb (he was on pace for 94 points in '09-'10) - with variables like injury and terrible linemates - would be atrocious asset management.

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03-12-2011, 09:30 PM
  #120
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How many guys can play terrible and still put up 70-80 points? That's Malkin's downside. His upside is well over 100 points. Not many players in the league have that high a floor and ceiling.

I guess none of this debate really matters since there's basically zero percent chance the Pens trade Malkin anyway.

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03-12-2011, 10:20 PM
  #121
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Lets inject some reason. Malkins numbers arent as much of a problem as his even strength production when not paired with Sid. He had terrible linemates but a player like him should be able to have more than a handful of goals over half a season. Nearly all his numbers this year were a direct result of Sid. He has yet to really embrace the Pens system of offensive zone time and north south hockey. Hell be dominant again with proper linemates but i question whether its on this team or one that caters to his style.

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03-13-2011, 01:27 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Lets inject some reason. Malkins numbers arent as much of a problem as his even strength production when not paired with Sid. He had terrible linemates but a player like him should be able to have more than a handful of goals over half a season. Nearly all his numbers this year were a direct result of Sid. He has yet to really embrace the Pens system of offensive zone time and north south hockey. Hell be dominant again with proper linemates but i question whether its on this team or one that caters to his style.
Some help on his line will even things out for the most part in my opinion. He's a great player but you just can't rip up the league between two guys who can't even carry the puck with their head up.

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03-13-2011, 04:29 AM
  #123
lowebellini
 
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lets keep hall he's a beaut malklin is suspect

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03-13-2011, 08:28 AM
  #124
Oilmageddon*
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All these proposals are the same on hf a trade is offered good value the fan base screams bloody murder claiming their player is better than gold .

And you better start with you're franchise player as we downgrade him right jiggy than add your next best prospect and add the first overall as well because our star who is downtrending and has huge contract will get this .

Give me a fn break pens fans show me one player traded that ever got that much back oh yeah and you can start with gretzky .Pens fans in here are truly obnoxious.,


Last edited by Oilmageddon*: 03-13-2011 at 09:04 AM.
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Old
03-13-2011, 09:33 AM
  #125
Jaded-Fan
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Pens' fans are generalized as obnoxious for saying no to trading a top three in the world when healthy player? I did not know saying no was so offensive an act.

By the way. No thank you again. Guess that makes me obnoxious again.

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