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Did Gainey get beat on the Kovalev deal?

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Old
07-03-2004, 12:50 AM
  #1
db23
 
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Did Gainey get beat on the Kovalev deal?

Bonk was acquired for a 3rd round draft pick by LA. He had the same points as Kovalev in less games last season, is better defensively, 3 years younger and a bit bigger. It makes the Kovalev deal seem pretty harsh. Also Nedved who went to Edmonton for a lot less was a much better two way player and more productive offensively than Kovalev.

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07-03-2004, 12:54 AM
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If they don't sign him, then yes.

But there are those fans that'll tell you a 2nd rounder and Josef Balej was worth 24 games of Alexei Kovalev.

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07-03-2004, 01:05 AM
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I have posted many times that I believe this was a bad deal. But my opinion doesn't count, Gainey's does. Was it a calculated risk? Was it simply a move to attempt to get us into third round and thus break even financially? I guess we'll never know.

I am aware that we have good depth and thus Balej was "expendable", however, we don't really know that the other prospects will turn out. Balej was the closet to NHL ready and had decenty size to boot.

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07-03-2004, 01:09 AM
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How many Kovalev thread do we need on the 1st page ?

Come on guys, instead of starting a thread why not just reply on a kovalev thread that are already existed.

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07-03-2004, 01:19 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Also Nedved who went to Edmonton for a lot less was a much better two way player and more productive offensively than Kovalev.
Oilers fan here.

A lot of people on our board speculated at the time that the fact that Sather and Lowe were friends (or at least knew each other well) allowed that trade to go down the way it did. IIRC I think one GM (I think it was Nashville's) actually said that the deal was totally unfair because he had offered much more for Nedved but Sather went with the Oilers instead. For what it's worth I think this trade had a lot of people raising their eyebrows, on both sides.

Link: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...ighlight=Poile

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07-03-2004, 03:23 AM
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Gainey went on the market to help the team when he needed for playoff, it sent a message to all the team in the eastern conference and our own player ( "we are serious and want to go far" )... yes you have to give. But at the time this deal was great for the team. ( so was czerkawski deal ... )

He improved the team when we needed it and had depth in the prospect chart...you cant blame him. Or maybe you always want to be a wanna be playoff team with lots of prospect.

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07-03-2004, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned
Oilers fan here.

A lot of people on our board speculated at the time that the fact that Sather and Lowe were friends (or at least knew each other well) allowed that trade to go down the way it did. IIRC I think one GM (I think it was Nashville's) actually said that the deal was totally unfair because he had offered much more for Nedved but Sather went with the Oilers instead. For what it's worth I think this trade had a lot of people raising their eyebrows, on both sides.

Link: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...ighlight=Poile
I never thought of that but Sather's ties with Edmonton might have been a part of it. The other difference however between Nedved and Kovalev is that Sather was trading Nedved to the other conference...

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07-03-2004, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theo6060
The other difference however between Nedved and Kovalev is that Sather was trading Nedved to the other conference...
True, I never noticed that. So I guess it makes sense that Sather was willing to accept much less from a Western team because Nedved wouldn't be playing against them (unless, of course, he signs with an Eastern team this offseason).

Just my opinion, and I don't know nearly as much as about the Habs prospects as you guys do, but I think Gainey made an okay move. A calculated risk, for sure, but one that was worth it in the end I think. Kovalev was pretty integral to you guys beating Boston (well, except for The Souray Incident ).

The key factor that will determine who wins the trade will be whether or not Balej turns out as a player and whether you re-sign Kovalev. But regardless of who won, it was a risk worth taking in the short term for the Habs.

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07-03-2004, 04:44 AM
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heck Balej was the top active scorer in the AHL when the trade happened . A 2nd round pick OR Balej would have been enough IMO .

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07-03-2004, 05:33 AM
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I had a mixed feeling when the trade happened and still do. On the other hand its nice to see Gainey sending out message - we mean business - but I still think Balej was overpaying.

Young player, who could have been developing further with our team was given out for playoffs rental, by a team that isnt fine-tuned for going deep anyways.

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07-03-2004, 06:22 AM
  #11
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I don't see how a second round pick for Kovalev would have been fair. If Kovalev signs elsewhere in the off-season, then there'll be a second round pick compensated. Meaning NYR would have been giving Kovalev away for free.


Regarding the deal: I don't think it was a bad one. Then again, I'm one of the few that don't believe Balej is anything special. I don't believe he's the closest to being NHL-ready nor do I think he'd be among Montreal's top 8-10 prospects at this stage.

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07-03-2004, 06:56 AM
  #12
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I don't think you could say "Gainey got beat on the deal". He knew exactly what he was getting and what he was giving up, and all the risks involved. He knew that the purpose of the deal was to help our team in the playoffs, and that we had a surplus of offensive forward talent in the minors. Taking that all into consideration, I think the deal worked out just the way Gainey wanted it to, so I imagine he'd do the same thing all over again, and be happy with it. In that circumstance, he's not "beaten".

Whether it was a good deal or bad deal... well... right now it's Balej and Bruce Graham for 20 games of Kovalev + pending compensation pick (maybe). On paper it will probably always seem like a bad deal, but as we've noted in countless other threads on the subject, the value of having a longer-than-expected playoff run and generating some excitement and confidence in the team is hard to measure.

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07-03-2004, 07:04 AM
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Yeap. And he got taken to the cleaners with the Bonk trade also. But what the hell, we're loaded with prospects.

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07-03-2004, 07:07 AM
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No, I think Gainey made a really good move in getting Kovalev. Kovalev was pretty important in our upsetting Boston and he got fans excited and we were able to sell out nearly all of our games when he came and the season was ending, I'm pretty sure.

Balej had no place on this team. We have so many prospects and Balej wasn't going to get broken into the NHL since there are more important prospects that play a similar role (a reason I felt that we really shouldn't have drafted this year and traded the pick). I guess it was also pretty important to get Hossa away from Balej as he needs to develop on his own. Finally, Balej cannot be sent to the AHL next year w/out being waived as he's reached that age, I believe, and he has no place on the big squad.

As for the 2nd rounder, big deal! What are the chances that we pick an NHLer w/ that pick? If I were GM, I'd be getting rid of draft picks whenever I can get a return cause (well, to an extent) they aren't worth half as much as people and other GMs value them.

Also, w/ deadline deals, I'm happy to see our GM taking a shot at a playoff run despite whatever it costs as it gives us a chance at a huge return (Stanley Cup) that we wouldn't otherwise have.

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07-03-2004, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
On paper it will probably always seem like a bad deal, but as we've noted in countless other threads on the subject, the value of having a longer-than-expected playoff run and generating some excitement and confidence in the team is hard to measure.
People are now bashing Gainey for the Nieuwendyk-Iginla swap, people value individual players more than a Stanley Cup, people...

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07-03-2004, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chehabi
No, I think Gainey made a really good move in getting Kovalev. Kovalev was pretty important in our upsetting Boston and he got fans excited and we were able to sell out nearly all of our games when he came and the season was ending, I'm pretty sure.

Balej had no place on this team. We have so many prospects and Balej wasn't going to get broken into the NHL since there are more important prospects that play a similar role (a reason I felt that we really shouldn't have drafted this year and traded the pick). I guess it was also pretty important to get Hossa away from Balej as he needs to develop on his own. Finally, Balej cannot be sent to the AHL next year w/out being waived as he's reached that age, I believe, and he has no place on the big squad.

As for the 2nd rounder, big deal! What are the chances that we pick an NHLer w/ that pick? If I were GM, I'd be getting rid of draft picks whenever I can get a return cause (well, to an extent) they aren't worth half as much as people and other GMs value them.

Also, w/ deadline deals, I'm happy to see our GM taking a shot at a playoff run despite whatever it costs as it gives us a chance at a huge return (Stanley Cup) that we wouldn't otherwise have.
So you're basically saying that Josef Balej and a 2nd rounder was worth 24 games of Alexei Kovalev?



Edit: Added this...

Btw, Mike Ribeiro, Mathieu Garon, and Jose Theodore are all 2nd round picks of Montreal... so with your scouting staff I think a 2nd round pick is very valuable.


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07-03-2004, 07:46 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafaholix
So you're basically saying that Josef Balej and a 2nd rounder was worth 24 games of Alexei Kovalev?




As a Leafs fan, I suppose you've never heard about compensatory picks as Toronto doesn't lose UFAs......

Well, if Kovalev signs with another team, we'll receive a 2nd rounder in 2005. So, basically, the trade will be :
Balej vs. 24 games of Kovalev and a fun playoff run (with another Bruins' upset )..... Not that bad.

If we resign Kovalev, then it's Balej and a 2nd vs. Kovalev for a few years. Good move if you ask me......

Finally, the only way it can end the way you see it is if we sign.....let's say Demitra or Palffy....

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07-03-2004, 08:45 AM
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If we re-sign Kovalev I think it's a good deal for us and we'd most likely win the deal. But if Kovy doesn't re-sign we still get the 2nd pick but Balej for 24 or so games of Kovalev, I think NYR would get the edge there.

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07-03-2004, 09:02 AM
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No guts,no glory. Gainey gave Habs fans what they've been crying for since the days of Recchi or longer. We finally had something to be excited about in March & April, so, from that perspective it's a good deal.

I liked Balej, but, we got an established scorer in return; without him we don't beat Boston. Balej will be a decent NHL scorer, but, he won't make us forget Guy Lafleur.
Gainey rolled the dice & got what he wanted. Not a bad deal.

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07-03-2004, 09:05 AM
  #20
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That's a good point. I hope that the new CBA doesn't change the compensatory picks rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StanAjax


As a Leafs fan, I suppose you've never heard about compensatory picks as Toronto doesn't lose UFAs......

Well, if Kovalev signs with another team, we'll receive a 2nd rounder in 2005. So, basically, the trade will be :
Balej vs. 24 games of Kovalev and a fun playoff run (with another Bruins' upset )..... Not that bad.

If we resign Kovalev, then it's Balej and a 2nd vs. Kovalev for a few years. Good move if you ask me......

Finally, the only way it can end the way you see it is if we sign.....let's say Demitra or Palffy....

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07-03-2004, 09:38 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by habscout
That's a good point. I hope that the new CBA doesn't change the compensatory picks rule.
That would suck, if so and Kovy signs elsewhere we'd definetly lose in that deal. But is there any reason they would take out the compensarary pick rule in the new CBA?

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07-03-2004, 10:01 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chehabi
No, I think Gainey made a really good move in getting Kovalev. Kovalev was pretty important in our upsetting Boston and he got fans excited and we were able to sell out nearly all of our games when he came and the season was ending, I'm pretty sure.

Balej had no place on this team. We have so many prospects and Balej wasn't going to get broken into the NHL since there are more important prospects that play a similar role (a reason I felt that we really shouldn't have drafted this year and traded the pick). I guess it was also pretty important to get Hossa away from Balej as he needs to develop on his own. Finally, Balej cannot be sent to the AHL next year w/out being waived as he's reached that age, I believe, and he has no place on the big squad.

As for the 2nd rounder, big deal! What are the chances that we pick an NHLer w/ that pick? If I were GM, I'd be getting rid of draft picks whenever I can get a return cause (well, to an extent) they aren't worth half as much as people and other GMs value them.

Also, w/ deadline deals, I'm happy to see our GM taking a shot at a playoff run despite whatever it costs as it gives us a chance at a huge return (Stanley Cup) that we wouldn't otherwise have.
Have to disagree with you. Balej was propably the closest thing to NHL player among our prospect. He was putting more than point per game in AHL just like Ryder and Ward before they made their jump, and didnt look bad in few minutes he got with the big team. There would have been, and still would be, place for him in our top 6. The way I see it we would have only Zednik and Ryder above him. In my books Josef beats Dagenais easily, would have been the closer to NHL ready than Perezhogin Higgins and Plekanec and would be at about even with Hossa (mainly because Hossa brings good size).

And, contrary what you believe Balej is only 22 yo and C O U L D have been be sent down without going through waivers, just like Plekanec for example. So there was no pressure getting rid of him.

Just curious, what exactly do you mean taking Balej away from Hossa? How does that help him, its not like they played same spot in the depth chart...? Hossa and Balej are long time buddies, from their days at Slovakian juniors and later WHL, I see this hurting more than helping Hossa.

I dont care much about dradt picks either... but losing useful cheap young player who had skill and attributes to play for our top six feels terrible waste. Maybe Balej wont be more than good 2nd liner, like Zednik (less grit/better shot), but he would have been nice addition in offensive depth for this team.

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07-03-2004, 10:15 AM
  #23
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If Gainey would of turned down the deal we all would of went ape crap.


It was a good deal then and it was a good deal now.





and to whoever was talking about Bonk and his size, pts, etc........how did he do in the playoffs?




I want Kovalev back.

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07-03-2004, 10:16 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by db23
Bonk was acquired for a 3rd round draft pick by LA. He had the same points as Kovalev in less games last season, is better defensively, 3 years younger and a bit bigger. It makes the Kovalev deal seem pretty harsh. Also Nedved who went to Edmonton for a lot less was a much better two way player and more productive offensively than Kovalev.
That's not the full deal! If Kovalev leaves we get a second round compensatory pick back. If a better draft year. So, the deal boils down to Balej for Kovalev. Given Kovalev won a series against Boston for us... I would make the deal again in a second. Balej may never mount to anything. If he does I don't think he will be much better than Val Bure.

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07-03-2004, 10:20 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rather Gingerly 1
That's not the full deal! If Kovalev leaves we get a second round compensatory pick back. If a better draft year. So, the deal boils down to Balej for Kovalev. Given Kovalev won a series against Boston for us... I would make the deal again in a second. Balej may never mount to anything. If he does I don't think he will be much better than Val Bure.


Amen Brotha.

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