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07-04-2004, 12:57 PM
  #1
truewithoutclue
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Rating our farm system

Explain to me how people actually pretend to have a clue on the Ranger prospects? Compare the Devils system to the Rangers and you can see the anti-New York hatred

Dawes rated a 5.5. Was more dominant then Parise at the WJC. Should have won the MVP and showed up in the final game which Parise didn't. Numbers 56GM 47G 23A 70P in the WHL on a bad team, with little talent in a tougher league than college.

Parise rated an 8.5 numbers 37GM 23G 32P 55A with a ton of talent on his team. Please explain to me how Parise who has shown on every level he isn't as good as Dawes is rated 3 ENTIRE points higher?


Tallackson . Rated an idiotic 7.5. A totally unproductive prospect. Numbers. 44GM 10G 15A 25P

Helminen. No you tell me how a guy who is one of the best defensive players in the nation and had more points then Tallackson,and is one of the favorites to win the Hobey Baker award this upcoming year is rated 5.5 compared to a loser like Tallackson who hasn't produced jack in 3 years on the college level? I don't even consider Tallackson a threat to make the pro's.


Wiseman in a brutally tough league the AHL on a bad offensive team. Numbers 62GM 25G 27A 52P. Had 52 points the year before in the AHL in 77 games. Rated a 4.5. One of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

Philman's numbers at the AHL level. 73G 10G 19A 29P. Not impressive but his team was very poor. However, he is rated a 7.5. Absurd.

Should be rated a 5.5 at best. Basically a non factor. Wiseman should be rated 6.5 to 7. It isn't easy to put up those numbers in the AHL anymore. Especially without much talent around him


Foster. This guy got a 7 rating. Puhlease. He's washed up. I don't even consider him a legit prospect. Numbers at AHL 44G 8G 13A 21P

Prucha is rated a 6.5. Enough said

Suglobov is a mental case with no clue how to play the defensive game and his work ethic stinks. HF says this about him, "Suglobov is not a physical player,his hesitation to take or deliver a hit really hurts him on the ice. Lack of a physical presence also negatively impacts Suglobovís defensive game, Alexander is a talented player, but does not play a smart game. He lacks certain mental qualities that just canít be taught, but makes up for a lot of them with his raw physical talent, Some rumors state that Alexander has attitude problems"

Now tell me how this clown gets an 8 rating and Jessiman who is already a monster with a great work ethic has the same rating as this never will be?

Please don't tell me that scouts can see talent where there isn't production. It's all about production unless you are very, very, young playing in a mens league. That isn't the case here.

The Devil prospects have shown to be much more unproductive then Ranger prospects yet have ratings 2 to 3 points higher. It's nothing more then anti-New York bais and the fact that Lou developed one or two impact players along the way so now they think every player he picked is a stud prospect. He hasn't produced jack since the Elias draft. Gomez and Gionta are non factors in physical games and Elias carries them constantly.

 
Old
07-04-2004, 04:07 PM
  #2
Potted Plant
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Yeah, production matters, but you're comparing production across leagues. You're bound to run into trouble. This should be clear in the comparison of Parise to Dawes. Dawes was a 19 year old in a league filled with 16-20 year olds. Parise was a 19 year old in a league filled with 18-22 year olds. Dawes, clearly, is going to be among the most experienced and physically developed players in that league while Parise was among the more inexperienced and least physically developed.

One can argue how important production is, but you have to at least compare apples to apples.

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07-04-2004, 04:30 PM
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I agree with you True, but how about this...When our prospects come up to the NHL and show us what they can really do, then we can shove it in everyone's face. Let's see how things turn out. Who cares what these so called "experts" say about our prospects. Lets let our guys prove it, and prove everyone wrong.

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07-04-2004, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balej20
I agree with you True, but how about this...When our prospects come up to the NHL and show us what they can really do, then we can shove it in everyone's face. Let's see how things turn out. Who cares what these so called "experts" say about our prospects. Lets let our guys prove it, and prove everyone wrong.
ya i complerely agree with you. We may very well get the last laugh.

But you have to remember these ratings havent been changed in over year. They still need to update them. The ratings were made before dawes' spectacular performance in the WJC. So lets wait till the updated ratings are made, before we criticize HF.

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07-04-2004, 05:00 PM
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truewithoutclue
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Yeah. I agree. I'm waiting to see. However, some of these ratings are absurd. Wiseman is a guy that is young, a 2 way player and has put up good numbers in the defensive AHL. This guy got a rating like he scores 10 points a season in the AHL. Helminen was a guy that I didn't realize was that good when we first made the deal. If he has been praised for his defense like he was was and is considered a Hobey Baker favorite how is he a 5.5 rated prospect? When they give these ratings to our players it's like they close their eyes. Mind boggling.

 
Old
07-04-2004, 05:09 PM
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I take all these prospect ratings with a grain of salt. Most of us never saw any or most of these players play for any number of games to accurately rank them.

I would rather rank prospects in several key areas like hockey sense, skating, physical play, puck skill, defense, and offense.

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07-04-2004, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Balej20
I agree with you True, but how about this...When our prospects come up to the NHL and show us what they can really do, then we can shove it in everyone's face. Let's see how things turn out. Who cares what these so called "experts" say about our prospects. Lets let our guys prove it, and prove everyone wrong.

Nicely said.

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07-04-2004, 07:32 PM
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Wiseman and Helminen have been carrying those ratings since before they were Rangers property, so that's hardly proof of anti-Rangers bias.

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07-04-2004, 08:30 PM
  #9
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Anyone have any idea when HF is planning on updating the Rangers prospects site?

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07-04-2004, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truewithoutclue
The Devil prospects have shown to be much more unproductive then Ranger prospects yet have ratings 2 to 3 points higher. It's nothing more then anti-New York bais and the fact that Lou developed one or two impact players along the way so now they think every player he picked is a stud prospect. He hasn't produced jack since the Elias draft. Gomez and Gionta are non factors in physical games and Elias carries them constantly.
Petr Sykora, Alyn McCauley, Colin White, Scott Gomez, Brian Gionta, David Hale, Paul Martin; those are just some of the good NHL players the Devils farm system has produced since the 1995 draft(not to mention undraftees like Madden and Rafalski). There aren't any superstars there, but considering the Devils have drafted late for many years now, that's a damn good group. Want to tell me what the rangers have done with the draft in that same timeframe that should make people feel they actually know what they are doing when they pick players? Given the track record of the two teams; yeah, I think it's reasonable to think the Devil's pick better prospects, develope them better and turn them into better NHL players then the Rangers do with their prospects; which is why it's fair to rate Devil prospects better, as the ratings are a guess at how they will perform at the NHL level.

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07-04-2004, 11:19 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by meehan
Petr Sykora, Alyn McCauley, Colin White, Scott Gomez, Brian Gionta, David Hale, Paul Martin; those are just some of the good NHL players the Devils farm system has produced since the 1995 draft(not to mention undraftees like Madden and Rafalski). There aren't any superstars there, but considering the Devils have drafted late for many years now, that's a damn good group. Want to tell me what the rangers have done with the draft in that same timeframe that should make people feel they actually know what they are doing when they pick players? Given the track record of the two teams; yeah, I think it's reasonable to think the Devil's pick better prospects, develope them better and turn them into better NHL players then the Rangers do with their prospects; which is why it's fair to rate Devil prospects better, as the ratings are a guess at how they will perform at the NHL level.

I'll give you obviously Gomez and Gionta....That's it!!The rest are not noteworthy (As far as draft picks).

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07-05-2004, 12:31 AM
  #12
meehan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icthelight
I'll give you obviously Gomez and Gionta....That's it!!The rest are not noteworthy (As far as draft picks).
Hmm, Petr Sykora has been a 20+ goal scorer the last 6 years including 2 where he scored 30+; yeah he's not "noteworthy"

As far as the rest, like I said they aren't superstars but they are pretty good NHL players. Alyn McCauley is a selke calibur forward who can also net 20 goals. Colin White, Paul Martin and David Hale would be top 4 defensemen on most teams in the league. Not bad considering that, on average, during the last 10 drafts the Devils have started picking at pick number 24. Show me the team that has drafted as late and as well as or better then the Devils in the last 10 drafts.

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07-05-2004, 04:21 AM
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truewithoutclue
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Sykora was 1 year after the Elias draft so I'll give you that but that still was a long time ago. Gionta and Gomez are not very impressive. They can't play physical games with any success and basically Gomez was carried by Elias all year

As far as I'm concerned White, Hale and Martin are average to below average. The only reason they aren't made to look horrible is the Devils system. I watched all 3 plenty last year. They barely make any plays. I think Fedor made more plays in 20 games then each did all year.


Last edited by truewithoutclue: 07-05-2004 at 04:24 AM.
 
Old
07-05-2004, 06:38 AM
  #14
meehan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truewithoutclue
Sykora was 1 year after the Elias draft so I'll give you that but that still was a long time ago. Gionta and Gomez are not very impressive. They can't play physical games with any success and basically Gomez was carried by Elias all year
That's a load of crap. Gomez and Gionta are not power forwards, but they are not by any means afraid to play in traffic. Especially Gionta who, despite being the smallest player in the NHL, always crashes the net and withstands physical abuse to score goals. And Gomez had 6 points in the 5 playoff games versus Philly; a series where he was hounded by Keith Primeau. So to say Elias carried him all year is entirely inaccurate for the simple reason that he didn't play on a line with Elias the whole year. Plus, this isn't the only year he scored 70 points. There were a bunch of worse players selected before him in the 1998 draft.

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As far as I'm concerned White, Hale and Martin are average to below average. The only reason they aren't made to look horrible is the Devils system. I watched all 3 plenty last year. They barely make any plays. I think Fedor made more plays in 20 games then each did all year.
Blatant homerism. White is a top 4 defensemen on the best defensive team in the league and is thus a key component and an established player in the NHL. Paul Martin had impressive point totals for the Devils and got better when more responsibility and ice time was placed on him. Not to mention the fact that he was a solid performer in meaningful games(something Fedor never took part in). He played damn well in the playoffs and netted a huge goal in the one game the Devils won. Hale, though not as impressive as Paul Martin, has showed signs of being a top 4 defensemen in this league. Spewing the same old garbage about the Devils being a team full of average and below average players that look good because of a system isn't going to cut it anymore. Everyone in the league plays the trap; no one in the league has been more successful then the Devils in the last decade. Their success is all due to great drafting, player developement and a few great trades by the best GM in all of sports. If you compare their average payroll with that of the other elite teams in this era(Dallas, Colorado, Detroit) you would see that they are generating alot of success while spending much less money. It's because of this, they get the respect of the industry when it comes to their methods and choices in team building. And because they actually know what they are doing, it's more probable that their prospects will continue to turn into fine NHLers, unlike the so called prospects of certain other teams.

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Old
07-05-2004, 07:00 AM
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truewithoutclue
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Dude. You are living in a world of make believe. Gomez is a guy that has proven to be a lousy playoff player time and time again. He was invisible vs. Ottawa last year and vs. the Ducks. The only points he mustered up vs. Philly were after the Flyers fell asleep twice with big leads and in one bad game Philly had. Other then that he was a total no show. Gionta is a 30 point player. Whoopdee do. Also, don't give me that garbabe about White. Half the Devil fans I know can't stand the guy. He doesn't do anything well. He throws a few hits. Big deal

He like Martin and Hale are classic examples of a guys that would have a hard time even being a 5th or 6th defenseman on a team like this with no system. White would be destroyed on defense if he was on this team as would Martin and Hale.

Your post was so absurd I almost dropped dead reading it. Same old garbage. People can't see how the Devils system hides weak players or players like White who have major flaws.

 
Old
07-05-2004, 07:09 AM
  #16
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You would have to know nothing about hockey to think Martin, Hale and Gionta were anything above average players. They simply are average skilled hockey players who are able to survive in the NHL because the Devils system hides their weaknesses and forces turnovers which allows average skilled players like them to produce a little.

Gomez is average as well. While his offense can be considered above average he is a terrible, terrible, terrible, defensive player. He hits nobody. Can't play in physical games. Plays small in big games. Hell, at least 10 of his points a year comes vs. us who don't seem to realize when you hit this guy he crawls under a rock.

Elias is a star. I've always said that and it's funny that Devil fans rip this guy more then anybody else on the team in the same mold as Gomez and Gionta. Neidermayer, Stevens. They are stars. Holik was an above average player and a good playoff player. Madden is an above average player and a good playoff player.

Spare me the nonsense about Gionta, Gomez, Hale and Martin. Put those 4 guys on this team last year and they would all stink. Hale and Martin would have been at least a -20 combined

 
Old
07-05-2004, 08:13 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by meehan
Paul Martin and David Hale would be top 4 defensemen on most teams in the league
No offense, but that is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in weeks.

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07-05-2004, 09:26 AM
  #18
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I agree totally Swerve. So many Devil players are overrated due to their system. If you know hockey you can see the real deal players on NJ compared to the players like Gionta, Martin, Hale, Pandolfo and Brylin to name a few who survive in the NHL because of the system

 
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07-05-2004, 10:01 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by truewithoutclue
I agree totally Swerve. So many Devil players are overrated due to their system. If you know hockey you can see the real deal players on NJ compared to the players like Gionta, Martin, Hale, Pandolfo and Brylin to name a few who survive in the NHL because of the system
Gomez is an above-average player, and still has alot of potential. In a few years, he'll be a first-liner. Gionta is a very good player, I would kill to have a player with that heart and desire combined with the average skill he possesses. But his desire makes him a well above-average player. The rest of those players let their play do the talking. Maybe you should watch the Devils a little more closely before making those statements.

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07-05-2004, 11:11 AM
  #20
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Maybe you should learn hockey before you make comments on my post. Gomez is not an above average player. He is a total non factor defensively. He has no physical element to his game. He's a poor goal scorer. His only asset is passing. Sorry but that doesn't make for an above average player. Gionta a very good player? That's a good one. Another guy that is poor on defense, a non physical factor and limited offensively.

I don't suppose a light bulb went off inside your dome after watching both these guys completely fall on their faces vs. big, physical, teams in big games the last couple years. It's always the same guys that carry the Dev's. Elias, Neidermayer, Brodeur, Stevens, Madden and the odd guy Lou picks up for the playoff run like Arnott or Langendope or Nieuwendyke.

 
Old
07-05-2004, 11:47 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by truewithoutclue
Maybe you should learn hockey before you make comments on my post. Gomez is not an above average player. He is a total non factor defensively. He has no physical element to his game. He's a poor goal scorer. His only asset is passing. Sorry but that doesn't make for an above average player. Gionta a very good player? That's a good one. Another guy that is poor on defense, a non physical factor and limited offensively.

I don't suppose a light bulb went off inside your dome after watching both these guys completely fall on their faces vs. big, physical, teams in big games the last couple years. It's always the same guys that carry the Dev's. Elias, Neidermayer, Brodeur, Stevens, Madden and the odd guy Lou picks up for the playoff run like Arnott or Langendope or Nieuwendyke.
Unlike you, I'm not a homer, and don't try to rip apart my rivals every chance I get.

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07-05-2004, 11:49 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by truewithoutclue
Maybe you should learn hockey before you make comments on my post. Gomez is not an above average player. He is a total non factor defensively. He has no physical element to his game. He's a poor goal scorer. His only asset is passing. Sorry but that doesn't make for an above average player. Gionta a very good player? That's a good one. Another guy that is poor on defense, a non physical factor and limited offensively.

I don't suppose a light bulb went off inside your dome after watching both these guys completely fall on their faces vs. big, physical, teams in big games the last couple years. It's always the same guys that carry the Dev's. Elias, Neidermayer, Brodeur, Stevens, Madden and the odd guy Lou picks up for the playoff run like Arnott or Langendope or Nieuwendyke.
wow, you really didn't watch any devils games this year did you?

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Old
07-05-2004, 03:39 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadway Crosby
Unlike you, I'm not a homer, and don't try to rip apart my rivals every chance I get.
That basically says it all about the originator of this thread. BLATANT HOMERISM. It's ok, the rangers can have the superstar team; I am fine with having the team filled with "average to below average" players that is always in contention for the Stanley Cup.

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